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Old 15th December 2010, 14:46   #391
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Default Re: Inverter or generator?

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Well. I did ask a Exide dealer and he is unsure about exide inverter. It is a new news for me too. What does he mean by premium sine wave. Any way I am not comfortable in trying new products in the market, even if it is a reputed brand, dont want to be their guinea pig
How much warranty are you getting for the gel battery.
For inverters, tubular is the best, but exide tubular 150 ah battery alone cost around the cost you quoted above for both inverter and battery
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Even assuming they are entering the inverter market, it will still be a new, untested product. Are you very keen to act as a guinea pig?

Go for a tried and tested brand. I am happy with Usha Zentra. My cousin is happy with Whirlpool. A couple of neighbors have Microtek and Sukam. I have observed these for a couple / three years and all are happy. Better buy one of these. Remember to choose a good battery brand as well.
Guys,
Thanks for the advice, I will say no to him for Exide inverters.

Will go for Microtek + Exide Battery I have two bedroom and would need one connection for TV and Comp, planning to go for 800v and 150ah.
Is that too much.

Additionally, what is tubular battery that I should ask for: Should it be Exide Invared or Exide SF Sonic.
which is best tubular battery?
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Old 15th December 2010, 15:29   #392
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Default Re: Inverter or generator?

The last time i checked invared was semitubular and i think sonic too (not 100% sure). Get an exide EL or IT series battery. They are tubular.

Amco tubular is also good.
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Old 21st December 2010, 00:09   #393
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Default Re: Inverter or generator?

My local electric store(whom I rely at lot) is now offering Crompton Greaves inverter 800va at 5400 INR, now thats adding to my confusion.

Just some days back had finalized on buying Microtek, then when I enquired for setting up, my electric shop now says, CG.

Any idea of the CG 800Va is sine wave or not? How is the brand in terms of reliability? please help
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Old 21st December 2010, 09:43   #394
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Default Re: Inverter or generator?

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My local electric store(whom I rely at lot) is now offering Crompton Greaves inverter 800va at 5400 INR, now thats adding to my confusion.

Just some days back had finalized on buying Microtek, then when I enquired for setting up, my electric shop now says, CG.

Any idea of the CG 800Va is sine wave or not? How is the brand in terms of reliability? please help
A new product from an established brand need not be good by default. Will you buy a TV from Honda or a bike from Sony?

Finalize the Microtek and get it installed. As for the price you mentioned, I think it is minus the battery. All inverters will cost more or less the same w/o the battery.
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Old 13th January 2011, 15:59   #395
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Default Luminous

How does Luminous fare? They are running some New year offer - 5k for the 800VA inverter + Rs. 9250 for Luminous Tubular 150 AH battery with 24 month warranty + Rs. 1000 for the trolley + installation. So 16k in all.

I think inverter price is in-line. I am concerned about the batteries.

~maniac
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Old 1st February 2011, 14:04   #396
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Default Re: Inverter or generator?

Here's my predicament (and it actually does justice to the title of this thread!):

My company has around 25 people working under a roof. We currently use a 7kva inverter with 20 40AH maintenance free batteries to power all the computers alone. The rest of the electrical equipment is powered by 2 APC 1.5KVA UPS's (one for each floor).

Its been a couple of years since we replaced the batteries, and now its more or less time to do so. I have been doing some research on tubular batteries and have realized that this is the best bet for us. However, the price is a huge dampener. 20 100AH tubular Exide EL batteries work out to around 2.28L inclusive of tax. That 11,800 per battery and we havent begun negotiations yet. This includes a 5 year warranty.

Now, since I am spending so much on batteries, and since Bangalore's power-cuts during the summer is folklore, I am kind of experimenting with the thought of generators as well.

I just read earlier that a 10KVA generator comes to about 2.6L. But to run 7kva, what power generator would be apt? Currently, with fully sealed batteries crossing 3 years, I achieve a 23% load with 14 PC's and 10 LCD monitors (works out to 24 users). I use a virtualization technology called NComputing which helps me split 1 PC amongst 10 or more users thus reducing my PC based power consumption (amongst other benefits).

So with a 23% load, I can run upto 3 hours or so with the exisiting UPS. Btw, the UPS shows the load on its LCD screen, is this directly mated to the batteries? In the sense, if lets say the batteries die further, and I keep the number of users constant, will the load show an increase in percentage terms?

What should I do? Get a generator? Or get tubular batteries? In my current office, I will not move until I reach a staff strength of 40 people approx. So I would like my current investment here on the genset/battery to help me get to 40 people atleast.

Last edited by Red Liner : 1st February 2011 at 14:07.
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Old 1st February 2011, 14:27   #397
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Default Re: Inverter or generator?

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My company has around 25 people working under a roof. We currently use a 7kva inverter with 20 40AH maintenance free batteries to power all the computers alone. The rest of the electrical equipment is powered by 2 APC 1.5KVA UPS's (one for each floor).
Is getting everyone a laptop an option? With that you "decetralize" expense of batteries. I.e. replace laptop's battery only when it dies. Hopefully all of them would not die in the same month.

With virtualization, cheap laptops should work. And users can have keyboard + LCD to use when on power.

UPS can power other equipments like routers/WiFi. This should save on cost of UPS.
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Old 1st February 2011, 14:51   #398
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Default Re: Inverter or generator?

One of the first thing that comes to my mind is that few people realise that the Desk Top computer actually costs a company more than is apparent. Here are some hidden infrastructure costs not factored in

1. Cost of Power Backup
2. Cost of Air conditioning, to cater to the extra heat dissipated by PC
3. Cost of real estate to accommodate larger desks for PC
4. Cost of wiring (both power as well as LAN)
5. Cost of dedicated locations verses free seating and instant relocation

When you factor in all these costs, then you will realise that, barring a few cases - CAD/CAM, GIS and where ever high computing power and/or large displays are needed, a laptop works out to be much less expensive in a corporate environment, even if it costs more initially.

In fact five years ago I read that major US corporates (with 10K+ desktops) were phasing out desktops and replacing them with laptops.

Backup power is better utised for environment control (AC Lights etc), than for powering PC! So a generator which can run all your AC should be a higher priority.
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Old 1st February 2011, 16:24   #399
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Default Re: Inverter or generator?

Given that his location is Bangalore, AC might not be top priority.
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Old 1st February 2011, 16:42   #400
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Default Re: Inverter or generator?

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Originally Posted by Aroy View Post
One of the first thing that comes to my mind is that few people realise that the Desk Top computer actually costs a company more than is apparent.
Very true atleast in large organization. Atleast in my company, i dont see anyone poweroff their desktops while leaving for the day. Atmost the monitor is switched off by some powersave setting, but the CPU still consumes atleast 100W.

A laptop by contrast consumes only about 30W even at its peak.

However, a Laptop would definitely be much much costlier in the long run than the power savings one can accumulate. A laptop also would mean other issues such as data security (people taking all the data home), more abuse (people working in front of their TV's with their kids running about) etc.

This is completely off topic - but i hope Tech companies liek Bangalore move away from being a AC - only envirnoment to a more eco-friendly non-AC envirnoments. The single biggest power consumption today is from the AC's.
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Old 1st February 2011, 19:36   #401
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Default Re: Inverter or generator?

Computers cannot work on generator alone.. they need a ups (else they will restart on power cut). So, you will have to connect the ups to the generator. Since your batteries have been working for 3 years, they are nearing their end, and eventually you will have to buy new batteries for the ups.

Considering the cost of diesel and the day by day price rise, and that you will have to eventually buy battery (even if it is 40 ah), it is wise to buy 100 ah batteries now in place of generator. (IMP: check if you UPS can handle 100 ah batteries).

How many systems are you using.

Laptop is not only considered as a big initial investment, have you considered their service and AMC. A single laptop AMC comes to around 3500, so it is a huge amount at last. If AMC is not opted.. everyone know how much the battery, motherboard, or display cost.

A desktop can be serviced at about 1k, and every component has minimum 5 years warranty. So, according to me unless portability is needed, desktop is best.

Take care...
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Old 2nd February 2011, 00:21   #402
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Default Re: Inverter or generator?

I think that a laptop is a very bad deal for desk-bound work.

If I had my way, I'd put every application on a server and a Wyse 120 on every desk.

Except that is all done away with now, and it is all thin clients. Whilst I don't know this technology personally, I am sure it is the way to go.

However the management teams like to rebadge it, none of it is really new! The dumb terminal, of course, goes back to the middle-ages of computing, and a "thin" diskless client was to be found (being called a server) long, long ago.
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Old 2nd February 2011, 01:02   #403
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Default Re: Inverter or generator?

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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
I think that a laptop is a very bad deal for desk-bound work.
A laptop + docking station that gives Keyboard + mouse + big LCD screen is as good as desktop for corporate use.

With obvious benefit that it would work without this LCD in case of powercuts.

For computers and most IT equipment, UPS is a "kludge". These things run on DC.

UPS first converts AC to DC, stores it, and converts it back to AC. There should be an option to add batteries to SMPS itself. That would be cheapest solution.

This is what Google did for their data center, I.e. power backup for each server (in form of a battery) instead of a big bad power conditioning system.

Last edited by NetfreakBombay : 2nd February 2011 at 01:07.
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Old 2nd February 2011, 04:59   #404
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Default Re: Inverter or generator?

That is a very good idea. I think my first-ever computer, an NCR Unix machine, had that option.
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Old 2nd February 2011, 11:56   #405
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Default Re: Inverter or generator?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
Is getting everyone a laptop an option? With that you "decetralize" expense of batteries. I.e. replace laptop's battery only when it dies. Hopefully all of them would not die in the same month.

With virtualization, cheap laptops should work. And users can have keyboard + LCD to use when on power.

UPS can power other equipments like routers/WiFi. This should save on cost of UPS.
This laptop idea is actually quite interesting. If done like the way car-leasing works, then it actually will boost performance and morale.

When you say with virtualization, you mean cheap laptops connected to a server which runs all the host applications? Until now, I ran virtualization only for back-office teams, but did not actually check this out for development teams.

Btw, we are a dot net shop. So we dont work on linux.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aroy View Post
One of the first thing that comes to my mind is that few people realise that the Desk Top computer actually costs a company more than is apparent. Here are some hidden infrastructure costs not factored in

1. Cost of Power Backup
2. Cost of Air conditioning, to cater to the extra heat dissipated by PC
3. Cost of real estate to accommodate larger desks for PC
4. Cost of wiring (both power as well as LAN)
5. Cost of dedicated locations verses free seating and instant relocation

When you factor in all these costs, then you will realise that, barring a few cases - CAD/CAM, GIS and where ever high computing power and/or large displays are needed, a laptop works out to be much less expensive in a corporate environment, even if it costs more initially.

In fact five years ago I read that major US corporates (with 10K+ desktops) were phasing out desktops and replacing them with laptops.

Backup power is better utised for environment control (AC Lights etc), than for powering PC! So a generator which can run all your AC should be a higher priority.
All your points are absolutely valid, and the fact that laptops also allow employees to work from home is nice

I do need to check on the high computing power bit for our developer requirements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
Given that his location is Bangalore, AC might not be top priority.
Absolutely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deep_bang View Post
Very true atleast in large organization. Atleast in my company, i dont see anyone poweroff their desktops while leaving for the day. Atmost the monitor is switched off by some powersave setting, but the CPU still consumes atleast 100W.

A laptop by contrast consumes only about 30W even at its peak.

However, a Laptop would definitely be much much costlier in the long run than the power savings one can accumulate. A laptop also would mean other issues such as data security (people taking all the data home), more abuse (people working in front of their TV's with their kids running about) etc.

This is completely off topic - but i hope Tech companies liek Bangalore move away from being a AC - only envirnoment to a more eco-friendly non-AC envirnoments. The single biggest power consumption today is from the AC's.
We are in a brilliant nice house with two floors. Very good ventilation with a nice big terrace. We packed off both our air conditioners into sealed boxes. OutSmart360 Alley – Blog to see pictures of the place. After coming off from a closed, glass facaded commercial office, this place is fantastic. I think we'll be looking nice and hard for a very well ventilated place as our next office.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipz View Post
Computers cannot work on generator alone.. they need a ups (else they will restart on power cut). So, you will have to connect the ups to the generator. Since your batteries have been working for 3 years, they are nearing their end, and eventually you will have to buy new batteries for the ups.
Yes, that was my plan. Route the genset to the UPS. The main line runs through the UPS as well (its an online UPS).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipz View Post
Considering the cost of diesel and the day by day price rise, and that you will have to eventually buy battery (even if it is 40 ah), it is wise to buy 100 ah batteries now in place of generator. (IMP: check if you UPS can handle 100 ah batteries).
I am veering towards this option after looking at the cost. I need something that can take me to 40 computers and give me a solid 5-6 hour back-up at the least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipz View Post
How many systems are you using.
Right now, we've got 24 people (14 PC's and 24 Monitors).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipz View Post
Laptop is not only considered as a big initial investment, have you considered their service and AMC. A single laptop AMC comes to around 3500, so it is a huge amount at last. If AMC is not opted.. everyone know how much the battery, motherboard, or display cost.

A desktop can be serviced at about 1k, and every component has minimum 5 years warranty. So, according to me unless portability is needed, desktop is best.

Take care...
That is true. I had not considered the AMC. Since we have an IT admin in-house, we dont need an AMC with an external company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
I think that a laptop is a very bad deal for desk-bound work.

If I had my way, I'd put every application on a server and a Wyse 120 on every desk.

Except that is all done away with now, and it is all thin clients. Whilst I don't know this technology personally, I am sure it is the way to go.

However the management teams like to rebadge it, none of it is really new! The dumb terminal, of course, goes back to the middle-ages of computing, and a "thin" diskless client was to be found (being called a server) long, long ago.
I will check on whether thin-client's make sense for our development teams. Our design teams which run adobe suites are not probably good examples for this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
A laptop + docking station that gives Keyboard + mouse + big LCD screen is as good as desktop for corporate use.

With obvious benefit that it would work without this LCD in case of powercuts.
If we get laptops, then we stinge on the LCD screens!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
That is a very good idea. I think my first-ever computer, an NCR Unix machine, had that option.
How old are you man?! I dont think I even know what this looks like.

I think we'll do some more calculations, because my next question is going to be:

-> What capacity of batteries make the best sense for a 40 seater operation that needs a back up of upto 6 hours.

Last edited by Red Liner : 2nd February 2011 at 12:00.
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