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Old 16th January 2013, 19:13   #526
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Default Re: Inverter or generator?

Anyone recently installed an automatic controller for a generator? We have a 30kva kirloskar greenpower at our place. Going by the capacity, it is for a small apartment of nine units. We want to have a semi instant power changeover when the EB power shuts down. The security must be prompted to switch on the genset and switch it off, especially before evening as they do not realise there is a power cut. And when EB supply is restored, they need to be prompted again.

For the indivudual units, we have automatic changeover relays installed. Manual changeover must be done for the common areas. Is there any system that can start and stop the generator at least? The automatic board costs upwards of 20k. But as we already have automatic switching in each unit, a start stop system can be good enough, and that would also prompt the security to changeover the common area source. So I think that would be a cheaper and better option.

BTW, these generators, kitna deti hai? The fuel guage has conked out, and we cant do tank to tank measurement as the diesel has to be filled manually. No empty to empty measurement also. Can generator owners share some ideas, tips etc?
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Old 18th January 2013, 10:49   #527
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Default Re: Inverter or generator?

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
Anyone recently installed an automatic controller for a generator? We have a 30kva kirloskar greenpower at our place. Going by the capacity, it is for a small apartment of nine units. We want to have a semi instant power changeover when the EB power shuts down. The security must be prompted to switch on the genset and switch it off, especially before evening as they do not realise there is a power cut. And when EB supply is restored, they need to be prompted again.

For the indivudual units, we have automatic changeover relays installed. Manual changeover must be done for the common areas. Is there any system that can start and stop the generator at least? The automatic board costs upwards of 20k. But as we already have automatic switching in each unit, a start stop system can be good enough, and that would also prompt the security to changeover the common area source. So I think that would be a cheaper and better option.

BTW, these generators, kitna deti hai? The fuel guage has conked out, and we cant do tank to tank measurement as the diesel has to be filled manually. No empty to empty measurement also. Can generator owners share some ideas, tips etc?
It is always advisable to have Automatic Switchover for larger generator sets, as it avoids manual intervention hassles. I think that 20-30K spent on this is worth it.

Power Generators normally consume between 150 and 300 grams/KW/hour so a 30KW generator should consume between 4.5l to 9.0l/hour at full load. At half load the consumption is about 60%. These are indicative figures and vary vastly from set to set, ambient temparature and fuel quality.

If you keep a log of hours run and fuel filled you will get a long term average.
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Old 18th January 2013, 13:35   #528
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Default Re: Inverter or generator?

But the issue is we already have automatic changeover for all the units. As soon as generator comes on, the power source gets changed, whether or not they manually switch it. Hence, I asked if there is a switch on switch off system. For the common areas, its secondary preference, and it is the units that we want fast switchover.
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Old 18th January 2013, 14:09   #529
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Default Re: Inverter or generator?

Incidentally as an aside the latest 5kVA Honda Petrol generator has an inverter output stage. The reason is that they can then run the petrol engine at the optimum rpm, and also make 50/60Hz inverters as required by the market. Also, the units become more compact and possibly efficient.
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Old 19th January 2013, 18:46   #530
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Default Re: Branded generator sets

Hi , reviving this really old thread.
I am in process of buying a genset rating roughly ~ 85kv.
Following are the contenders:-
1. Kirloskar
2. Sudhir
3. Mahindra
Calling all those who are using the aforementioned gensets in lieu of their opinions about the same.
I have heard great reviews about Mahindra gensets , regarding their low consumption figures and cheap maintenance.
Kindly drop your advices / suggestions for the same.
Thank you
ishlinea7260
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Old 19th January 2013, 19:44   #531
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Default Re: Branded generator sets

We have a Kirloskar Green in our small scale apartment of 30kva capacity. Its running from two years. Untill now there was routine oil changes and a coolant change till date. Though I dont have experience with other brands, here are some points I can mention:
  • Silent running. Though genset is very noisy, it has been damped very well and no noise reaches the houses. Basement is a bit noisy but I think thats due to reverb.
  • As per the service guy, it consumes around 5liters per hour of running.
  • Easy to operate.

Due to low running, the battery died and we replaced it past week. Apart from that, no other issues.
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Old 19th January 2013, 22:09   #532
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Thank you for your honest opinion , I have also heard good reviews of Kirloskar till date.
Need to check on the other two now.
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Old 31st January 2013, 22:18   #533
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Default Re: Inverter or generator?

I am looking at purchasing a inverter for my 3 BHK apartment. Any recommendations or do's/don'ts that I should keep in mind? What brands are good. What should I look for when buying a inverter.

Additionally, is a inverter good enough for expensive home appliances like LED TVs? Or do they need a some kind of a special device to regulate power?
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Old 31st January 2013, 23:19   #534
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Quote:
Originally Posted by areddy View Post
I am looking at purchasing a inverter for my 3 BHK apartment. Any recommendations or do's/don'ts that I should keep in mind? What brands are good. What should I look for when buying a inverter.

Additionally, is a inverter good enough for expensive home appliances like LED TVs? Or do they need a some kind of a special device to regulate power?
Make sure you buy a Pure Sine-wave Inverter. Only and you are good for everything especially sensitive equipment like LED TV's.

I was using a Su-Kam pure sine wave home ups for around 2 years before i moved into an apartment complex with power backup. Served me pretty well, no problems at all. Luminous is also good.
Buy batteries from companies that have good replacement policy in your city.
For instance here in delhi amaron replaces a defective battery in a max of 24 hrs while exide takes 8-15 days.I suppose it would be same but bhpians from your city might confirm.
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Old 1st February 2013, 15:04   #535
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Default Re: Inverter or generator?

If you are just using a lot of illumination/fans or an AC, a decent capacity generator would do good. Remember that a gen-set requires a spin up time since the alternator has to be driven by the prime-mover(gasoline/diesel) engine and hence, there would be a delay in the time from power failing to the backup coming into picture.

Sensitive electrical equipment, i feel should never be run on a generator since even a slight rpm deviation of the prime mover can cause fluctuations which affect both voltage and current being output. This can cause either the power-convertors/electronic components present in the equipment to burn out. Once they do, the only option would be replace the entire power input stage( or a board as they call it) which is expensive to say the least.

Ideally, A hybrid solution is preferrable wherein an electronic setup can sense the battery voltage and depending upon that, the generator can be started up and a relay setup can be operated to ensure seamless switching between the two sources. I dont know if this has been implemented in any households, but i do think it is possible.
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Old 2nd February 2013, 07:49   #536
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Default Re: Inverter or generator?

Thanks K2max6, Arch-Angel.

Is it fair to say that if one is not an engineer and if it for a normal house hold with usual stuff like fans, bulbs and some fancy equipment, a normal sine wave inverter will serve the purpose? Honestly, I rather a bit of money for the convenience of an inverter.

Any idea on how to decipher different terminologies used when trying to buy an inverter? online, pure sine, AVR, Power conditioning?

Thanks a ton in advance!
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Old 2nd February 2013, 09:14   #537
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Default Re: Branded generator sets

Quote:
Originally Posted by ishlinea7260 View Post
Thank you for your honest opinion , I have also heard good reviews of Kirloskar till date.
Need to check on the other two now.
Just out of curiosity, why does a home need a generator as opposed to an inverter?

I am looking out for inverter about came across this thread? Gensets seem more expensive, more maintenance and even risk of conking off appliances at times?

I am a novice and my opinion above could be wrong. Care to explain more?
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Old 2nd February 2013, 12:10   #538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by areddy View Post
online, pure sine, AVR, Power conditioning?
AVR in power electronics refers to Automatic Voltage Regulation. AVRs are usually used in generators to control the excitation voltage given to the alternators to control the amount of power being supplied. There is a lot of science on how this is done. Regarding the real power/ reactive power and apparent power if i remember my engineering concepts properly, depending upon the type of load, the alternator excitation is controlled in order to deliver correct voltage/frequency.

Online- This term is used for UPS usually wherein your load is actually connected to the output of UPS throughout the time where the load is supplied through the battery/inverter section of the UPS and simultaneously charges from the electrical power.It is an always-on type of backup.

Pure Sine Wave- Alternating Current we get through our plug points is 230V/50Hz supply which is supplied via transmission/distribution networks. Alternating current has a Sinusoidal waveform corresponding to a +230V and -230V for the 50Hz frequency (time period would be 1/50=.025s). In traditional inverters, the DC->AC was done using switches namely different types of transistors(ex:MOS-FET) with a specific ON-OFF cycle to get what looks like a stepped wave form or triangular wave for a 50Hz frequency. Triangular Waveforms stress out various subsystems of a computer namely the SMPS which actually has some sort of trouble with the triangular waveform (don't exactly remember why).So normal non-sine wave inverters are discouraged for use with electronic equipment. Pure sine wave inverters produce a near perfect sine wave (<5% THD) and so, they are safe to use with electronic equipment.

Power Conditioning- This is a process which is done to improve power quality by reduction of noise present in the power being delivered. This noise is measured in terms of total harmonic distortion or THD. This is done using electronic circuitry to determine power conditions namely a sag(brief reduction in peak voltage) or a swell(brief increase in peak voltage). Then depending upon the condition, a corresponding sine wave compensation would be done, a reduction in case of swell or an increase of voltage in case of a sag and when the power returns to normal conditions, this injection of voltage is stopped.

Hope i have been able to shed some light on this, Ill leave the details to the experts though.

Last edited by Arch-Angel : 2nd February 2013 at 12:31. Reason: Removed smileys to improve readability
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Old 2nd February 2013, 12:38   #539
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Default Re: Inverter or generator?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch-Angel View Post
AVR in power electronics refers to Automatic Voltage Regulation. AVRs are usually used in generators to control the excitation voltage given to the alternators to control the amount of power being supplied. There is a lot of science on how this is done. Regarding the real power/ reactive power and apparent power if i remember my engineering concepts properly, depending upon the type of load, the alternator excitation is controlled in order to deliver correct voltage/frequency.

Online- This term is used for UPS usually wherein your load is actually connected to the output of UPS throughout the time where the load is supplied through the battery/inverter section of the UPS and simultaneously charges from the electrical power.It is an always-on type of backup.

Pure Sine Wave- Alternating Current we get through our plug points is 230V/50Hz supply which is supplied via transmission/distribution networks. Alternating current has a Sinusoidal waveform corresponding to a +230V and -230V for the 50Hz frequency (time period would be 1/50=.025s). In traditional inverters, the DC->AC was done using switches namely different types of transistors(ex:MOS-FET) with a specific ON-OFF cycle to get what looks like a stepped wave form or triangular wave for a 50Hz frequency. Triangular Waveforms stress out various subsystems of a computer namely the SMPS which actually has some sort of trouble with the triangular waveform (don't exactly remember why).So normal non-sine wave inverters are discouraged for use with electronic equipment. Pure sine wave inverters produce a near perfect sine wave (<5% THD) and so, they are safe to use with electronic equipment.

Power Conditioning- This is a process which is done to improve power quality by reduction of noise present in the power being delivered. This noise is measured in terms of total harmonic distortion or THD. This is done using electronic circuitry to determine power conditions namely a sag(brief reduction in peak voltage) or a swell(brief increase in peak voltage). Then depending upon the condition, a corresponding sine wave compensation would be done, a reduction in case of swell or an increase of voltage in case of a sag and when the power returns to normal conditions, this injection of voltage is stopped.

Hope i have been able to shed some light on this, Ill leave the details to the experts though.
Thanks Arch Angel. So what should I go for from a value for money point of view, if I have a 3 BHK house and want protection for expensive appliances like my LED/LCD, Computer and Home Theatre system.
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Old 2nd February 2013, 13:59   #540
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Default Re: Branded generator sets

When you think of large scale installations, in homes itself, a generator will be a better option. When the requirement is more than 5kva, I feel a genset will make sense. It can support all kinds of load, right from your borewell pump, ACs, and the likes. To support the same load, especially three phase loads, an inverter wont do. Also you dont have to worry about the battery running out.

For a small home, an inverter makes sense, say for upto 4-5kva.
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