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Old 18th April 2013, 11:21   #3616
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Default Re: Microwave oven

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Originally Posted by vasoo View Post
Good math over there. However LPG is a fossil fuel and unless you consider the ecological impact and efficiency of manufacturing LPG from crude oil and distribution, the comparison is not complete. More than 90% of LPG supplied in India are through cylinders and not piped. That causes cumulative impact due to filling, storing and transporting them. Electricity distribution costs are mostly fixed. Then comes the cost of subsidy for LPG in India. We should consider the actual cost of LPG, for example the private gas costs more than double of the subsidized ones. In addition to all, burning LPG releases CO2 which has significant impact on global warming.
I agree that LPG is subsidized in India. But then all prices in India are built by countless taxes duties and cess and innumerable subsidy upon subsidies, including the electricity. This makes the "true cost" or "true price" comparisons an impossibility.

Let us take prices in highly capitalistic country = US.

http://www.altfuelprices.com/station...usetts/Boston/
The price of LPG in Boston = USD 2.91/gal.
US gal = 3.785 L, 1L of LPG = 0.5 kg
So that means that price in Rs/kg = 84.6

This means the net delivered LPG cost for cooking purpose = 1.5 x 84.6/28.9 = 4.4 Rs/MJ


Now coming to electricity:
You might be aware that electricity in India is highly subsidized! A commercial power generation gets more than Rs 6/kWh. What comes to homes should be easily Rs 8-10/kWh.

Anyway, Lets see the case in US. Massachusetts again.
http://www.eia.gov/electricity/month...m?t=epmt_5_6_a
About 13.5 cents/kWh.
This makes it Rs 7.4 /kWh

Pretty close to what I proposed for India! - there is NO WAY that electricity can be more expensive to produce & sell in US compared to India!!!

So when the price of electricity is Rs 7.4/kWh, the cooking cost from microwave becomes 3.3 Rs/MJ.


So, using electricity is cheaper in US.
(Makes sense, since economy of scale dictates that burning fuel in a large power plant to generate energy should be more economical than burning fuel in each small home)


As I said, in India everything is skewed by the Govt policies. Someday our future generations will really bear the brunt of this idiocy.

***

Now if we were to look at the environmental impact. Using direct fuel is always better (unless our electricity comes from hydro / nuclear / solar / wind). This is because power plant burn fuel, generate heat which does mechanical work, which generates electricity. This electricity is used to again generate heat in our homes.

Whenever we introduce heat => mechanical energy conversion - we undergo severe losses, due to thermodynamics (which means there is no way to ever improve this). Unfortunately there is no other scalable way of producing electricity currently from heat.

However at home when we burn LPG, we directly use the heat. No conversion to mechanical or electrical energy takes place.

Last edited by alpha1 : 18th April 2013 at 11:25.
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Old 18th April 2013, 11:45   #3617
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Default Re: Microwave oven

It is not that straightforward either, how is electricity generated? Apart from a very small percentage coming from Nuclear, WInd & Solar, major portion still comes from burning fossil fuels. This is a primary source of CO2. Further one could argue that LPG is but only a byproduct of the distillation process and if not utilized would just have to be flared off.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vasoo View Post
Good math over there. However LPG is a fossil fuel and unless you consider the ecological impact and efficiency of manufacturing LPG from crude oil and distribution, the comparison is not complete. More than 90% of LPG supplied in India are through cylinders and not piped. That causes cumulative impact due to filling, storing and transporting them. Electricity distribution costs are mostly fixed. Then comes the cost of subsidy for LPG in India. We should consider the actual cost of LPG, for example the private gas costs more than double of the subsidized ones. In addition to all, burning LPG releases CO2 which has significant impact on global warming.

Last edited by khoj : 18th April 2013 at 11:48. Reason: editing
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Old 18th April 2013, 12:57   #3618
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Default Reheating food: LPG vs. microwave

For the last couple of days I couldn't post for some reason, so my response (written earlier) is a bit late.

The discussion has somehow veered towards relative ecological impacts of LPG vs microwave reheating of food (from an in-the-kitchen cost/convenience comparison). By the same logic, much discussion in this thread on ACs and the like shouldn't even be there!

Be that as it may, here are a few points (some already made by others) I'd like to make in this regard.

While, there is no denying the fact that natural gas heating is usually more "green" than heating by electricity/microwave when taken as a whole (although it can be argued that the latter is the cleaner method in a kitchen), let's have another look in the Indian context:

Quote:
Price of LPG ~Rs 410 for 14.2 kg (=28.9 Rs/kg)
As vasoo had already pointed out, the actual price is more like Rs. 1000/14.2 kg. The subsidy does come from the consumer's pocket itself (albeit indirectly, as tax). So there is a factor of ~ 2.5x that needs to be taken into account. This makes the Rs/MJ value for LPG to be ~ 3.8 (vs. 3.3 for microwave, as per alpha1's updated calculation based on the U.S power tariff)! So using microwave is cheaper even in India! (This is without considering the typically Indian imponderables, like whether the "14.2 kg" stamped on the LPG cylinders can be taken at its face value or not!


2. It may sound strange, but I'd argue that a MJ is not necessarily an MJ when it comes to reheating food by gas! Here is why I think so:

If the food is mostly liquid (e.g. daal), the energy actually going to reheat the food (i.e. ignoring environmental losses) is roughly equivalent for LPG and microwave.

However, for mostly solid foods (like curries with less moisture content, or even the Indian staple, rice), energy actually spent to reheat the food itself is used much more efficiently by microwave. A gas stove heats the food from outside in. So food on the outside gets cooked more by the time the heat penetrates inside. To counter this, often a bit of water is added for steaming (and the food is stirred). Much of the energy input is wasted in heating up this additional water!

In addition, when compared to microwave, gas-stove-reheating often substantially changes the quality of the food itself, sometimes with undesirable results. For example, I can't even think of taking gas-stove-reheated rice (which usually turns into garbage as far as I'm concerned, while microwave-reheated rice is almost as good as new).


3. Then there is the very real cost (monetary or otherwise) of having to use and clean extra pots and pans for gas-stove-reheating.


So, as long as nobody is willing to go back to the days of gas lighting (and possibly stop all use of electricity and the like in favour of greener alternatives), let's also enjoy the real benefits of microwave ovens!
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Old 22nd April 2013, 14:11   #3619
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Default Re: Reheating food: LPG vs. microwave

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Originally Posted by meerkat View Post

However, for mostly solid foods (like curries with less moisture content, or even the Indian staple, rice), energy actually spent to reheat the food itself is used much more efficiently by microwave. A gas stove heats the food from outside in. So food on the outside gets cooked more by the time the heat penetrates inside. To counter this, often a bit of water is added for steaming (and the food is stirred). Much of the energy input is wasted in heating up this additional water!

In addition, when compared to microwave, gas-stove-reheating often substantially changes the quality of the food itself, sometimes with undesirable results. For example, I can't even think of taking gas-stove-reheated rice (which usually turns into garbage as far as I'm concerned, while microwave-reheated rice is almost as good as new).
Agreed. Microwave is more efficient way of heating, especially when you don't have a fluid to transfer the heat via convection (inside the pot).

But then, I did qualify this by saying that microwave is best used for heating/reheating, not cooking as such.

Also, you need to keep in mind that whatever "baking/grilling" that takes place inside a microwave (via programs) - is mainly by heating coil + fan = mainly convection and radiation in Infrared.

Somehow our cooking styles, taste buds and tongue is more adapted to the traditional IR based heating and cooking, rather than the Microwave based heating and cooking.
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Old 22nd April 2013, 14:58   #3620
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Default Re: Reheating food: LPG vs. microwave

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Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
Somehow our cooking styles, taste buds and tongue is more adapted to the traditional IR based heating and cooking, rather than the Microwave based heating and cooking.
The visual aspect is very important in cooking. One major disadvantage of u-wave is that there is no colour change so normal cooking looks unpalatable. I even tried a chocolate cake thinking that it is brown in any case, even here the absence of the subtle dark brown did not help. Cakes come out lighter in a micro but no colour change does not help. Micro is great were colour change is not there (scramble eggs) or where a lot of processing will follow - preparing the brinjals for Baingan bharta. It is also handy for making ghee out of Malai or butter. This colour issue is there in all styles of cooking, not just Indian
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Old 22nd April 2013, 21:19   #3621
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Default Re: The Home Appliance thread

Microwave is great for quickly steaming vegetables. They will be tastier --- but if the preferred method is to boil the life out them, then people may not like this.

A pressure cooker can be used the same way. With accurate timing, it can be used to cook food fast, and just enough. It will be nutritionally superior, but people may not like the effort of actually having to use their teeth on their dinner instead of sucking it through a straw.

With both of these methods, the lack of colour change can be an advantage, leaving the reds of carrots and the greens of, err, greens, looking fresh and delicious.

This is not necessarily compatible with the stew of the west or the curry of India. Nothing at all wrong with stews and curries, but not everything needs to be like that.

The ultimate opposite to the microwave is the slow pot. This can make tough meats delicious and rich stews even richer.

They are all valid cooking methods, all to be explored and used according to one's taste at the time. There are yet other methods that are used in professional kitchens that have hardly, yet, made a showing in the home...
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Old 22nd April 2013, 23:44   #3622
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Default Re: The Home Appliance thread

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Originally Posted by NGM View Post
For my first purchase i went for the one with all options and ended up using it only for heating.Now am looking to buy a new microwave and pretty clear with my requirements.Need a microwave with basic features(Rs5000) .which brand to go for?
Same here too.
So for my 2nd purchase i wanted only a Solo model. But most showrooms didn't have any display or stock of basic models. Finally found a LG and Whirlpool in Reliance. Bought the LG for 4.5k as the whirlpool one had feather touch controls, whereas the LG had rotary controls, which i felt would be more sturdier.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 03:44   #3623
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Default Re: The Home Appliance thread

I'm looking at buying some integrated/built in kitchen appliances(Oven,Microwave,Dishwasher,Hob,Chimney,C offee machine).Faber has negative reviews on Mouth Shut(for stand alone appliances) and I cant seem to find any reviews on Siemens.Any help/suggestions on zeroing in on the brand/appliance particularly for built in appliances would be great!
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Old 23rd April 2013, 14:09   #3624
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Default Re: The Home Appliance thread

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Originally Posted by dreamtheater39 View Post
I'm looking at buying some integrated/built in kitchen appliances(Oven,Microwave,Dishwasher,Hob,Chimney,C offee machine).Faber has negative reviews on Mouth Shut(for stand alone appliances) and I cant seem to find any reviews on Siemens.Any help/suggestions on zeroing in on the brand/appliance particularly for built in appliances would be great!
Try KAFF http://kaff.in/
Seimens have a good reputation though they are on an expensive side.

In general built in appliances are at least twice as expensive as their stand alone counterparts.

I personally prefer stand alone as I can choose what ever size and shape I want, where as with built in you are constrained by the fixed dimensions of the cabinet.

I have yet to see any built in gas appliances, they all seem to be electric, and I prefer gas for cooking, both stove and oven.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 19:07   #3625
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Question Re: Kenstar Mixer Spares?

I am looking for spares for my 'Kenstar' mixer.

Please advise on any spare shops in and around Jayanagar/JP Nagar Bangalore.
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Old 24th April 2013, 11:01   #3626
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Default Re: The Home Appliance thread

IFB washing machine,the lever to pull the front door is broken.The crooks at IFB can only replace entire Door for 3K.Any Idea if I can get the lever only replaced ?
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Old 24th April 2013, 11:40   #3627
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Default Re: The Home Appliance thread

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Originally Posted by manavdotcom View Post
IFB washing machine,the lever to pull the front door is broken.The crooks at IFB can only replace entire Door for 3K.Any Idea if I can get the lever only replaced ?
You may try sticking the broken lever with araldite. You can end up with amazing results if done properly!
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Old 29th April 2013, 14:59   #3628
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Default Re: The Home Appliance thread

Friends,
Can someone give feedback on LG microwave ovens with "Charcoal Lighting Heater" feature? I can't find any user reviews of this functionality.
28 Lts model is for 13 K while 32 Lts model with this feature is for 20K. 4 lts of extra capacity and the "Charcoal Lighting Heater" feature costs the extra 7K. I am wondering if it is worth it?
-Bhaskar.
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Old 1st May 2013, 12:53   #3629
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Default Re: The Home Appliance thread

Folks, I'm planning to buy a room cooler and would like your inputs/opinions on which make/model would be a good choice, as I personally have no clue about what options are available and am too lazy to do the research.

Guesstimate of daily usage would be 6-8 hours/day.

Requirements: Should cool an approx 250 sq ft [20 ft x 12.5 ft] area, minimal noise during operation, easy to move about, decent water tank capacity [to avoid frequent refills], no leakages or other malfunctions after a few years of usage, responsive customer care [if needed], budget under 10K, shouldn't make my electricity bill sky rocket etc etc!

As you can see, I want the most bang for my buck as befits a typical Indian consumer . So, let the advice pour in!

Cheers,
Vikram
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Old 1st May 2013, 13:14   #3630
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Default Re: The Home Appliance thread

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Originally Posted by comfortablynumb View Post
Folks, I'm planning to buy a room cooler and would like your inputs/opinions on which make/model would be a good choice, as I personally have no clue about what options are available and am too lazy to do the research.

Requirements: Should cool an approx 250 sq ft [20 ft x 12.5 ft] area, minimal noise during operation, easy to move about, decent water tank capacity [to avoid frequent refills], no leakages or other malfunctions after a few years of usage, responsive customer care [if needed], budget under 10K, shouldn't make my electricity bill sky rocket etc etc!
Hello ,

My requirements are pretty similar to yours! Especially with the massive heat wave that has hit Pune nowadays.

Might scour a few shops around where I live (Memorex/Mahavir/Vijay Sales) to look for deals.
I find this one interesting :

http://www.snapdeal.com/product/symp...o-with/1245599
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