The Digital Camera Thread: Questions, discussions, etc.

[Torqy]

Originally Posted by ntomer

I don't agree with this analogy here. Alto and BMW don't compete in the same segment. But Nikon/Canon and Olympus does. And usually for a given set of features, Olympus is a less expensive than Nikon/Canon.So there must be some reason for Nikon/Canon being more pupular and out-selling Olympus.

\N

The choice of lenses in CANIKON world might be a reason. But soon Olympus (actually fourthirds format) will have enough glass for competition.

Actually i liked the idea of different manufacturers adopting a format (or a system) so that lenses can be interchanged irrespective of the manufacturer.....instead of restricting one to a particular manufacturer (or a set of manufacturers).

That's fourthirds format.

-- Torqy

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by alli.gator

Applicability of this view: General users, lay users, non-experts, alli.gators and non-Samurais.

Now back to the business of having fun here...

I disagree with you. Actually for a advanced user and a pro user canon Nikon make more sense. Even for users with more specialty needs Canon and Nikon are a better bet.
For example, I love long exposures and high ISO photography. For me Oly system is a dead end, as its more noisy.
For a lay user who wants bells and whistles, shoots families and landscapes on holidays trip, systems like Olympus and pentax make better sense because they care capable of giving better results out of the box. For example in camera shake reduction.
In a normal environment(upto 20-30 sec exposure max, ISO 400 max) there will be no difference in quality whether the shot is taken from an Oly, a pentax, a Fuji(which will acutally give better results than the lot).
When you go to limits. For example exposures involving 30 minutes 40 minutes. ISO 1600.
Or you are looking at extremely wide angle 8mm shots.
Its at stuff like this Canon and Nikon make a better bet.
Canon and Nikon have more lenses on offer.
To the lay user who will use focal lengths from 24mm to 400mm and not go into specialist type photography, it does not matter at all which DSLR it is.
I am yet to see a guy who does normal photography and is limited because he does not own a canon or Nikon.
Infact when people ask me what camera to get for their simple holiday shots etc., I suggest a P&S like Canon S5 IS etc., or the Fuji F31fd.
However if you want to go in for highly specialist photography where you need bokeh of a F1.2 lens on a full frame sensor and go ultra wide angle, then you start looking at more established systems.

Originally Posted by ntomer

I don't agree with this analogy here. Alto and BMW don't compete in the same segment. But Nikon/Canon and Olympus does. And usually for a given set of features, Olympus is a less expensive than Nikon/Canon.So there must be some reason for Nikon/Canon being more pupular and out-selling Olympus.

\N

Canon/Nikon have had the lead. If you look at the market share graphs, now Oly and Pentax are clawing at their market share. When a company improves market share so drastically it definitely means that the product is good. You do not snatch away market share from established brands unless you have a product that is good.

[tsk1979]

Sorry to go offtopic from the discussion, but I received my "Joby Gorillapod"
Plan to do some "different" kind of shooting tonight.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by alli.gator

Now back to the business of having fun here...

I see you totally miss the point, so let me not dwell on it anymore.

Originally Posted by ntomer

I don't agree with this analogy here. Alto and BMW don't compete in the same segment. But Nikon/Canon and Olympus does. And usually for a given set of features, Olympus is a less expensive than Nikon/Canon.So there must be some reason for Nikon/Canon being more popular and out-selling Olympus.

The analogy may not have been perfect, but the idea is something like this. Price is not the only criteria. Each manufacturer mentioned here, say Canon/Nikon/Olympus/Pentax/Panasonic/Sonic/Fuji have their strengths where they beat others squarely. If a buyer is an enthusiast, he/she will research every offering within the budget before making an informed decision, they won't be swayed by just popular choices. Others who just want a camera to capture family moments/travel events, will just go by popular choice which may or may not suit their need, but it mostly does work out since the requirements are rather simple. Since Nikon/Canon did their marketing well in the early years, they usually end up being the popular choice.

If you ask me how I would choose a P&S, I would go by how wide the lens would go and what kind of sensor and lens it has. I wouldn't care much about telephoto. That might send me in the direction of Fuji P&S. But some one else may decide they need long telephoto, lowlight ability, face recognition and IS, but don't care about wide or sensor type. Then they may consider the Canon offerings. So it depends on what you want within a given budget.

[ntomer]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Since Nikon/Canon did their marketing well in the early years, they usually end up being the popular choice.

Samurai San, Canonikon aren't popular/market-leaders just because they did/do their marketing well. Both put huge resources in research and are pioneers in their field.

The most technologically advanced 35 mm dSLRs are from Canonikon - 1Ds Mark III and D3; and even in entry level dSLRs they are leaders.

The major reason Oly sells is not because of it's unique features - they are all available in Canonikon also, but that Oly gives those features at a lesser price than Canonikon.

\N

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by ntomer

Samurai San, Canonikon aren't popular/market-leaders just because they did/do their marketing well. Both put huge resources in research and are pioneers in their field.

And what do you think about non-Canon/Nikon research efforts? Why did Canon/Nikon steal ideas about LiveView/Anti-Dust from lesser companies after thrashing such ideas? Their next invention will be body based IS.

Originally Posted by ntomer

The most technologically advanced 35 mm dSLRs are from Canonikon - 1Ds Mark III and D3; and even in entry level dSLRs they are leaders.

The D3 happened just recently. In entry level dSLRs they are not leaders, the Olympus and Pentax are giving them hell there.

Originally Posted by ntomer

The major reason Oly sells is not because of it's unique features - they are all available in Canonikon also, but that Oly gives those features at a lesser price than Canonikon.

Which entry level Canon/Nikon has working anti-dust, weather-sealed body (Pentax), liveview or body IS?

I don't want to get into this SLR system wars. I am happy with Olympus, so let me be. I am not trashing Canon/Nikon, I am only saying there are other choices too.

I have spent $3000 on my Olympus gear, soon I will be spending $1800 more on a new dSLR body. I guess I must be an idiot.

[ntomer]

Originally Posted by Samurai

The D3 happened just recently. In entry level dSLRs they are not leaders, the Olympus and Pentax are giving them hell there.

Compare the sales of Canonikon vs Pentax, Oly, you'll get your answer.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Which entry level Canon/Nikon has working anti-dust, weather-sealed body (Pentax), liveview or body IS?

Exactly my point, the major USP of Oly is that it gives more features compared to Canonikon at a lesser price.

Originally Posted by Samurai

I have spent $3000 on my Olympus gear, soon I will be spending $1800 more on a new dSLR body. I guess I must be an idiot.

No, you definitely are not. Neither are millions of other users who have bought Canonikon and are happy with it. That includes a much respected old member of t-bhp as well.

\N

[Torqy]

Originally Posted by Samurai

And what do you think about non-Canon/Nikon research efforts? Why did Canon/Nikon steal ideas about LiveView/Anti-Dust from lesser companies after thrashing such ideas?

Yeah...It was very hard for them to admit that DUST IS a problem.

Originally Posted by Samurai

I have spent $3000 on my Olympus gear, soon I will be spending $1800 more on a new dSLR body. I guess I must be an idiot.

No, you're not.

I wouldn't mind becoming an idiot with $1800 to spare.

-- Torqy

[Torqy]

Originally Posted by ntomer

No, you definitely are not. Neither are millions of other users who have bought Canonikon and are happy with it. That includes a much respected old member of t-bhp as well.

Sorry to disappoint you ntomer.....i use Olympus.

[ntomer]

Originally Posted by Torqy

Sorry to disappoint you ntomer.....i use Olympus.

I guessed as much from your posts ;-)



\N

[pjbiju]

Originally Posted by Torqy

Sorry to disappoint you ntomer.....i use Olympus.

Good one there mate

In the US (and may be some other countries as well), people at least have an option to try out different cameras before finalizing on a particular model/brand. Most of us do not have this luxury. We also tend to look at customer support and other issues before finalizing a model. Canon/Sony scores very well in this in India. All the others are only catching up now. I know several of my friends who bought their digital cameras based only on the fact that they had long zoom ranges (10x, 9x) etc. compared to other cameras that only had 3x, 4x etc. and better customer support. Most of these people do not understand or learn about the features of their cameras and therefore even these cameras are underused. I have seen similar folks in the US as well. These people simply look at user polls and ask a few friends around. Also a person who has several lenses of a particular brand are likely to go for the cameras of that brand, even though he/she may like another model from another brand. So I think, it is quite futile to argue about the merits/demerits about the different brands/models outside the context of a person's requirement. Same applies to offering advice - it can only be based on what the person who is seeking advice wants from the camera/lens.

[kvish]

Originally Posted by ntomer

Canonikon aren't popular/market-leaders just because they did/do their marketing well. Both put huge resources in research and are pioneers in their field.

I guess you answered the question yourself below. If you find a product that does equally well at 60% the cost and still go for the more expensive one, you are clearly associating with the brand than the product, isnt it?
in which case the canonikon advertising dept will be smiling all around

Originally Posted by ntomer

The major reason Oly sells is not because of it's unique features - they are all available in Canonikon also, but that Oly gives those features at a lesser price than Canonikon.

[ntomer]

Originally Posted by kvish

If you find a product that does equally well at 60% the cost and still go for the more expensive one, you are clearly associating with the brand than the product, isnt it?

Yes, people do pay a premium for good brands. Like 7.5 lakhs for a Honda City. If it would have a Hyundai City, nobody would have paid this much for it and it would have been a failure ;-)

People pay more for established brands because they get great support, a broad range of accessories (lenses in camera's case), and an assurance that the product is from a well-known company so less probability of it being a dud.

\N

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by ntomer

People pay more for established brands because they get great support, a broad range of accessories (lenses in camera's case), and an assurance that the product is from a well-known company so less probability of it being a dud.

You are saying Olympus is not a well-known company? Well, their products and their history is good enough for me. Besides, I am yet to exceed the capability of my dud E-500.

If you find some time, read this site, he details all the cameras he used over 30 years. Photography doesn't start with Canon and end with Nikon.

the other Martin Taylor - cameras

But generally when somebody is caught with a non-Canon/Nikon dSLR, I like always do, there is no end to the lecture on how bad Olympus is when compared to Canon/Nikon. The fact is Canon/Nikon make great cameras, but you know what, so does Olympus. I chose Olympus after nearly 6 months of research, it was not an accident, I actually found some reasons to choose it over Canon/Nikon. Just like I chose petrol GV over diesel Endy/Tucson. Please don't use the Canon/Nikon hype to discredit other cameras. Such bias never adds any value to a forum like ours.

Today I was reading December Edition of Smart Photography, especially their camera recommendation. As usual they always give high ratings to Canon/Nikon which didn't surprise me, I am used to that. But I started laughing when I saw the rating for 400D and E-510 next to each other.

But I haven't experienced both these cameras myself, so my opinion doesn't matter.

Let's see what a reputed photo site had to say:

Originally Posted by http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/OlympusE510/verdict.shtml

Canon’s EOS 400D / Rebel XTi is the best-selling 10 Megapixel DSLR right now, so a natural rival to the E-510. The Canon comes in comfortably cheaper than the E-510 and offers roughly similar quality, along with a far superior 9-point auto-focus system and bigger viewfinder. Beyond this though, the E-510 has the edge. It features built-in anti-shake, Live View and superior anti-dust capabilities, not to mention a better kit lens. The E-510 is far better-featured overall, so if you’re considering the Canon but can afford a little more, you should definitely also take a look at the Olympus.

Source: Olympus EVOLT E-510 full review Cameralabs verdict

For the heck of it, I tried to compare the rating from Smart Photography vs Dpreview vs Camera Labs, for 400D, D40X and E510.



While SP puts 400D/D40X way ahead of E510, the DP and CL feel exactly other way. I obviously believe the rating of DP and CL, since their methodology and test report is available online, while SP method of rating is a mystery. I don't know about you, but I clearly see how Smart Photography review is biased in favour of Canon and Nikon.

[ntomer]

Originally Posted by Samurai

You are saying Olympus is not a well-known company? Well, their products and their history is good enough for me.

Dear Samurai San, I gave the example of Honda and Hyundai. Hyundai too is a very well known company. But people have more faith in Honda and pay a premium for it's products.
Similarly Oly might be making the greatest cameras around but unfortunately majority of people don't think so. Canonikon far outsell Oly; but ofcourse this can be attributed to people's ignorance.

If you find some time, read this site, he details all the cameras he used over 30 years. Photography doesn't start with Canon and end with Nikon.

I never said that Oly doesn't make good cameras. My point was that Canonikon don't thrive just on marketing, their products are also OK, if not as great as Oly.

But generally when somebody is caught with a non-Canon/Nikon dSLR, I like always do, there is no end to the lecture on how bad Olympus is when compared to Canon/Nikon. The fact is Canon/Nikon make great cameras, but you know what, so does Olympus. I chose Olympus after nearly 6 months of research, it was not an accident, I actually found some reasons to choose it over Canon/Nikon. Just like I chose petrol GV over diesel Endy/Tucson. Please don't use the Canon/Nikon hype to discredit other cameras. Such bias never adds any value to a forum like ours.

Samurai San, don't you think if I am biased towards Canonikon, you are as much biased against those. Anyways that was not my intention, my point as already stated above was that Canonikon also aren't that bad.

This is my last post on this topic. I have already used much stronger words than I normally would. And moreover I respect you as a person and don't want to continue this useless argument.

So you be happy with your Oly and I will be happy with my Nikon.

Cheers

Nitin