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Old 11th December 2010, 12:40   #211
mgh
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

Bought an amaron shield 160 Ah in June 2010 for 9055+1222 VAT, to replace the most useless battery i have ever seen

Bought a Sukam 800 VA Falcon inverter/UPS for 6300 in August. It has switches at the back to

1 select inverter or UPS mode-In UPS mode, changeover to battery takes place below185 V incoming or above 265 V incoming, changeover in case of inverter mode is at 105 V and 285 V
2 switch to increase charging rate when there are frequent power failures
charge currents (max) 9 amps normal, 13 amps high charging mode, charging voltage13.6 V normal, 13.9 V high charging

At my place internal wiring has been done such that mains power (for lighting circuit) is available at a 15 amp socket, next to that is another 15 amp socket, which connects to the lighting circuit. If there is no inverter, you simply provide 15 amp plugs at the ends of a suitable cable and plug them in. with inverter/ups, the power plug of the inverter/UPS is connected to the mains power, and the output is connected to lighting circuit. so installation of inverter/UPS, involves no wiring. The whole arrangement is under a staircase, and the staircase itself is well-ventilated. Have been checking water levels in the amaron, have not needed to add any water so far. The guy who supplied it told me that a check once in six months will be enough, though their manual advises every month. Have been checking every fifteen days!

With this combo, i can run an onida 29" CRT TV, a quad core PC with graphic card and LCD monitor, couple of fans and a couple of lights (all CFLs), when the power goes off without tripping the inverter/UPS. As a precautionary measure, if both PC and TV are running, we switch of at least one of them immediately, and switch off the other at the earliest possible (eg TV after favourite program). As per my calculations, if the PC alone is run on battery, backup should be more than 3 hours even after the battery gets a bit old.

In normal use, battery needs to be derated at least 50 % because
1. A standard battery is rated for 20 hrs discharge- eg a 100 Ah battery will take 20 hrs to discharge with a 60 W load. As load is increased, backup available reduces, for example with 4 60 W bulbs, the backup will not be five hours but much less.
2. Also, with age the backup capacity reduces
In effect, it means that after you have calculated your backup requirement, you should choose a battery (or multiple batteries) with a nominal backup capacity two to three times of that.

Last edited by mgh : 11th December 2010 at 12:55.
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Old 11th December 2010, 17:38   #212
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

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Originally Posted by mgh View Post
In normal use, battery needs to be derated at least 50 % because
1. A standard battery is rated for 20 hrs discharge- eg a 100 Ah battery will take 20 hrs to discharge with a 60 W load. As load is increased, backup available reduces, for example with 4 60 W bulbs, the backup will not be five hours but much less.
2. Also, with age the backup capacity reduces
In effect, it means that after you have calculated your backup requirement, you should choose a battery (or multiple batteries) with a nominal backup capacity two to three times of that.
Also remember that best battery life is with 10-20H charging rate. So 150AH battery should not be charged above 15A, preferably at 10A, and then the charging should come down to 1A (trickle charge)
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Old 21st December 2010, 15:47   #213
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

What a useful thread! Really informative.

Here are some of the observations I made regarding batteries which might be helpful to fellow members.

I run a 180 volt 15Kva online ups system at my office which requires 15x120AH batteries, thus a considerable investment is required for the batteries.

Battery resellers generally don't have the required knowledge about the battery requirements. I even received recommendations to use cheaper automotive batteries for my UPS from them.

Two things that need to be considered before choosing a battery are, first, the average depth of discharge (DoD) and second the number of discharge cycles.

I'll explain a bit. For example if you consider the battery capacity to be 100, and you use the battery till only 20% capacity is left (i.e. 20) then the DoD is said to be 80%. 80% DoD is the standard discharge level, anything more than 80% and the battery will be damaged. Usually when a inverter or ups stops working, the battery has reached a DoD of 80%. Number of discharge cycles is the number of times the battery was discharged.

Tubular batteries (InvaTubular, EL ...) can easily sustain a DoD of 80% and they can withstand approx 1200-1500 discharge cycles.

Semi-tubular batteries (InvaRed, Amaron Shield ...) also can sustain DoD of 80% and can withstand approx 800 discharge cycles.

SMF/VRLA batteries are designed for 50% DoD and can withstand approx 500 discharge cycles. In addition it is recommended that SMF batteries should not be used where backup time required exceeds one hour, because of issues with heat and battery life.

Automotive batteries CANNOT withstand deep discharge cycles, since they are not designed to be deep discharged at all.

A nice document explaining all this is here --> http://www.exide4u.com/exide/images/pdf/ups24.pdf

Now based on this information, i guess one can choose between batteries for their requirements. As you can see, battery longevity will vary from one installation to other. for example a SMF battery used in a location where there are infrequent power cuts and the duration of power cut is short, then the batteries will last for a longer period as compared to a location where there are frequent and long power cuts. Also longevity depends on the load and the charging/discharging circuit.

The first set of batteries I bought were tubular batteries from a local manufacturer. While the batteries were good for the first 3-4 years, some of the batteries lost capacity, while some didn't. Quality seemed to be inconsistent. I still have 4 batteries from this set that are working fine even after 10 years in operation. I use those 4 batteries in another offline UPS system without any problems. At that time, when i bought these, i didn't know anything about inverters or batteries, i thankfully followed the UPS manufacturer recommendation.

For the second set of batteries, i researched quite a bit and I chose Exide INVARED, big mistake, since later i realised they are not true tubulars, and as expected, batteries are starting to conk off just outside the warranty period of 24 months.

I have replaced 3-4 batteries so far. But if any more batteries fail then i'll have to change the entire set with true tubular batteries such as Exide InvaTubular, IT500 or EL/EL+ Even AMCO looks promising.

Do any of the Pune guys have experience with indobatteries.com based in Pune?

Hope this has been helpful! Cheers!
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Old 21st December 2010, 15:55   #214
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

Planning to place the battery in balcony, which is enclosed with brick wall of height 3ft.
My question is how is the outside temperature in summer, going to affect the battery/ its water level. Thanks...
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Old 21st December 2010, 16:37   #215
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

That was very informative IMP.This will surely clear the misunderstanding of many user.

It is always better to change all the batteries together. Damaged battery result in higher voltage across the new batteries resulting in damage. And also one of the reason for the damaged battery can be that 15 kva needs minimum 240 v. Have you checked about that.

Twiny@ Just make sure that direct sunlight does not fall onto the battery, and make sure that it is well ventilated.

Last edited by Chipz : 21st December 2010 at 16:40.
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Old 21st December 2010, 16:52   #216
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

@Chipz: Yes, I know, the new batteries will be overcharged when connected in a set of older ones, but i want to extract the maximum life out of my battery investment. I expect these semi tubulars to last atleast half of what a true tubular battery would have lasted. Lets see what happens.

The UPS has a rating of 180 VDC, and it has been working well for a long time, i know the manufacturer well. I dont think DC voltage might be an issue, since I have reduced the load on the UPS. I just use it for longer periods now, 6-8 hours on the weekly power holiday here in Pune.

Cheers!
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Old 21st December 2010, 23:39   #217
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twiny View Post
Planning to place the battery in balcony, which is enclosed with brick wall of height 3ft.
My question is how is the outside temperature in summer, going to affect the battery/ its water level. Thanks...
It will depend on the temperature the batts are exposed to. If the temp. outside is higher than what you can offer it indoors, then you will loose some battery life.
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Old 22nd December 2010, 11:23   #218
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twiny View Post
Planning to place the battery in balcony, which is enclosed with brick wall of height 3ft.
My question is how is the outside temperature in summer, going to affect the battery/ its water level. Thanks...
The battery capacity derates both above and below the design temperatures. Hence if outside is hot the capacity reduces. Apart from that higher temperatures would speed up battery water loss. This is not a major problem, but requires smaller intervals between water top up.
One advantage of keeping batteries in a veranda is that there will be plenty of ventilation to disperse the hydrogen fumes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipz View Post
It is always better to change all the batteries together. Damaged battery result in higher voltage across the new batteries resulting in damage. And also one of the reason for the damaged battery can be that 15 kva needs minimum 240 v. Have you checked about that.
Ideally all the batteries in series should be of same capacity and same condition. There is a more modern solution, where each battery is charged separately, but that is an expensive and involved circuitry. One method of detecting the state of battery capacity is to get a "Battery Discharge Meter", one that presents a load across its prongs, and test each battery once or twice a year and then take appropriate action - club batteries of similar capacity together (if possible).
Batteries deteriorate due to the active material falling off from the retaining backing. This is aggravated by high discharge, vibration as well as by the backing material physical design. That is why tubular batteries last longer (as the material is packed in a tube and resist falling off). Modern design with gel and better backing material ensures less deterioration, hence longer life.
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Old 2nd January 2011, 23:37   #219
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

ordered APC SUA2200UXI UPS (2200VA)
Now I need four 12volt batteries
I want tubular,
should I go for amron or exide EL tubular

whats the price of 100 ah exide tubular battery
by budget is 30,000/-
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Old 3rd January 2011, 10:20   #220
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

You wont be getting branded tubular battery for 7500 each. Branded fully tubular 100 ah comes to around 9500/-

And Exide and Amco is the best when it comes to Tubular.
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Old 3rd January 2011, 11:06   #221
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

sukam has battery balancers available to take care of unbalanced batteries in series
>>> SU-KAM <<< Leading manufacturer of Power Products in India, Only Power back up company manufacturing world class UPS, Home UPS, Online UPS, Inverters, Batteries, Battery Chargers, Solar Products
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Old 3rd January 2011, 11:32   #222
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

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Originally Posted by Chipz View Post
You wont be getting branded tubular battery for 7500 each. Branded fully tubular 100 ah comes to around 9500/-

And Exide and Amco is the best when it comes to Tubular.
9,500 bucks for the Exide Tubular 100 AH with 5 year warranty? I have been receiving much higher prices - but the lowest being 11,400 bucks inclusive tax.
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Old 3rd January 2011, 19:36   #223
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9,500 bucks for the Exide Tubular 100 AH with 5 year warranty? I have been receiving much higher prices - but the lowest being 11,400 bucks inclusive tax.
Ya exide and amco will come around at that price. I was telling about other lesser known brands, but they too have increased the price according to the new pricelist..
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Old 3rd January 2011, 22:25   #224
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by agent009 View Post
ordered APC SUA2200UXI UPS (2200VA)
Now I need four 12volt batteries
I want tubular,
should I go for amron or exide EL tubular

whats the price of 100 ah exide tubular battery
by budget is 30,000/-
I getting an APC SUA2200I 2.2 KVA for my comp and home electronics. It will replace the APC RS-1500 that I've been using for the past 7 years since Jan 2004 albeit with 2 battery replacements and 1 major repair bill.

IMHO these UPS charging systems are designed for AGM VRLA sealed batteries and not flooded tubular which use lower charging and float voltages. The APC site shows battery options as sealed VRLA units. See here - Order Options: SUA2200UXI=


Trust you confirmed with the dealer that the UPS can be used with flooded batteries.

Rgds,

Last edited by R2D2 : 3rd January 2011 at 22:27. Reason: typo
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Old 3rd January 2011, 23:16   #225
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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
I getting an APC SUA2200I 2.2 KVA for my comp and home electronics. It will replace the APC RS-1500 that I've been using for the past 7 years since Jan 2004 albeit with 2 battery replacements and 1 major repair bill.

IMHO these UPS charging systems are designed for AGM VRLA sealed batteries and not flooded tubular which use lower charging and float voltages. The APC site shows battery options as sealed VRLA units. See here - Order Options: SUA2200UXI=


Trust you confirmed with the dealer that the UPS can be used with flooded batteries.

Rgds,
Thanks buddy for the headsup...

anyway I ordered a AMRON QUANTA 100AH battery(4Nos) form our fellow member whitemm550

AMRON QUANTA has 2 years replacement warranty

gave me a very good rate (31K for 4 batteries)

BTW buddy,
on the APC page the batteries have wierd battery capacity(Ah) specs
for UXABP48 battery pack the Battery Volt-Amp-Hour Capacity =3360(Now such a huge figure whats that??)

Last edited by agent009 : 3rd January 2011 at 23:23.
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