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Old 23rd April 2017, 10:54   #961
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

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Originally Posted by bluevolt View Post
Can tractor batteries be used in invertors? (90 ah/600VA)
Tractor batteries are SLI and designed for high amperage discharges of short duration after which they must be charged back up to 100% SOC. On the other hand, inverter batteries are designed for deep discharge at a steady rate.

One can use tractor batteries in inverters but don't expect them to last long if your area has frequent and long power outages. I'd advise you to use a battery designed for inverters.
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Old 26th April 2017, 12:32   #962
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

I have a Sukam 800VA inverter and a Sukam 150AH battery. The battery had a very bad life and I think it lasted only up to 2 years. After which I didn't bother changing it as power cuts became rare.
The power cuts have come back now and I'm looking to change my battery. I dont want to go back to Sukam because of the short life span. Exide seems to be everyone's best bet in this forum.
I've shortlisted the Exide Inva Red 500. I was interested in the Inva Tubular (IT500) but my trolley cannot accommodate it. One of the battery dealers is suggesting Exide EL Master 8500. Is this a good option? Anybody has experience with this?
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Old 26th April 2017, 16:28   #963
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I recently bought IT500+ after advice from a friend who is in the industry. Very early days, but have only heard good things from everyone. Hope it proves to be as reliable as my Toyota :-)
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Old 26th April 2017, 17:53   #964
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

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I recently bought IT500+ after advice from a friend who is in the industry.
Are you referring to IT-500 - GelMagic?
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Old 27th April 2017, 21:42   #965
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Are you referring to IT-500 - GelMagic?
No the normal one, no gel
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Old 30th April 2017, 03:44   #966
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

We had an Exide InvaQueen 500 normal battery that lasted around 7 years. We replaced it with an Exide Tubular battery and it is now around 4 years old but is giving half the backup now. Isn't tubular battery supposed to be better? Usage is similar if not lesser as we don't have any more scheduled power cuts in the recent years.
Has anyone tried Luminous Regalia? It is an inverter with Lithium battery like the Tesla Powerwall, costs 64k for 1-1.5KWh battery. Is a 12V 100AH lead battery = 120 WH or 1.2 KWh? Would it have the same energy output as that of a 1.2 KWh lithium battery or am I missing something? If yes, then this thing is 4 times more expensive, though it will last 3 times longer, has no maintenance and is much smaller.
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Old 30th April 2017, 10:28   #967
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

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Originally Posted by su_madness View Post
We had an Exide InvaQueen 500 normal battery that lasted around 7 years. We replaced it with an Exide Tubular battery and it is now around 4 years old but is giving half the backup now. Isn't tubular battery supposed to be better? Usage is similar if not lesser as we don't have any more scheduled power cuts in the recent years.
Has anyone tried Luminous Regalia? It is an inverter with Lithium battery like the Tesla Powerwall, costs 64k for 1-1.5KWh battery. Is a 12V 100AH lead battery = 120 WH or 1.2 KWh? Would it have the same energy output as that of a 1.2 KWh lithium battery or am I missing something? If yes, then this thing is 4 times more expensive, though it will last 3 times longer, has no maintenance and is much smaller.
Frankly, the Li option doesn't make sense to me at the asking price. Yeah, it's loaded with so called features which are gimmicks IMO. Also, Li (I assume they are Li Ion) batteries are sensitive to heat and combustible. You're looking at a disaster if they ever catch fire.

A 12V 100AH battery is 1200 Wh or 1.2 KWh (volts x amps) so it is the same as a 1.2 KWh Li battery. But both types of batteries have different discharge characteristics and Li Ion do NOT like deep and frequent discharge/charge cycles.

I would suggest you replace your failing lead acid batteries with tubular batteries of the same capacity. They're tried and tested technology for inverters of any kind.

Incidentally our 4 year old Exide Invatubular IT 750 (tall tubular) 200 AH batteries have been doing duty without a complaint so far. The Su Kam 1.5 KVA inverter has given me problems but not the batteries (touch wood).
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Old 30th April 2017, 12:17   #968
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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
Incidentally our 4 year old Exide Invatubular IT 750 (tall tubular) 200 AH batteries have been doing duty without a complaint so far. The Su Kam 1.5 KVA inverter has given me problems but not the batteries (touch wood).
are you using it in 12v or 24v configuration? I have two APC inverters at home both in 12v configuration and get about 1.6 kva (think mine are 800 va each) with 150ah batteries each.
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Old 30th April 2017, 12:37   #969
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

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are you using it in 12v or 24v configuration? I have two APC inverters at home both in 12v configuration and get about 1.6 kva (think mine are 800 va each) with 150ah batteries each.
This inverter is a 1.5 KVA unit requiring 2 batteries connected in series for 24 VDC.
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Old 30th April 2017, 12:51   #970
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
. But both types of batteries have different discharge characteristics and Li Ion do NOT like deep and frequent discharge/charge cycles.
This is not true. Lifetime of lithium batteries are not affected by fast dis/charging (up to 1C) and deep discharge (~80% depth of discharge).
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Old 30th April 2017, 13:18   #971
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

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Originally Posted by kevintomin View Post
This is not true. Lifetime of lithium batteries are not affected by fast dis/charging (up to 1C) and deep discharge (~80% depth of discharge).
Please read: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a..._ion_batteries

EDIT: And this page http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...acteristics_li

Last edited by R2D2 : 30th April 2017 at 13:22.
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Old 30th April 2017, 13:52   #972
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

I just wanted to say Lithium technology is better for fast charge and discharge (less internal losses and no degradation is lifetime). While lead acid is typically rated for ~0.2 to 0.3 C charge and discharge.

Cycle life of lithium-Ion chemistry is ~ 3x higher than lead acid for similar depth of discharge.

Please see comparison of both technologies.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...e_best_battery
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Old 30th April 2017, 14:58   #973
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

I am planning to buy Exide Gel-magic 150AH battery; appreciate any feedback on Gel-magic battery.
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Old 30th April 2017, 16:22   #974
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

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Originally Posted by kevintomin View Post
I just wanted to say Lithium technology is better for fast charge and discharge (less internal losses and no degradation is lifetime). While lead acid is typically rated for ~0.2 to 0.3 C charge and discharge.
That depends on the type of L-A battery you buy. Deep discharge batteries can be discharged upto 0.5-0.8 C regularly and cycled back to 100% SOC without severe plate corrosion that you'd find on other types of L-A batteries. In fact they need about several cycles of partial charge and discharge cycles to reach their optimum performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevintomin View Post
Cycle life of lithium-Ion chemistry is ~ 3x higher than lead acid for similar depth of discharge.
Yes, but you that's not in inverter or deep discharge applications. The site very clealy says:

Quote:
Lead Acid — most economical for larger power applications where weight is of little concern. The lead acid battery is the preferred choice for hospital equipment, wheelchairs, emergency lighting and UPS systems.
while for Li Ion:

Quote:
The technology is fragile and a protection circuit is required to assure safety.
As you can also see in the table there are other characteristics of Li batteries that make them unsuitable for UPS/inverter systems:

a) Fragile and dangerous (if not handled or charged properly). You must've heard of the Note 7 fiasco) due to battery ignition and explosions. Not to mention some aircraft (B-787) Li batteries exploding that grounded the fleet.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/lithium-bat...ry?id=36816040

b) Sensitive to operational temperature and over charging.
c) Prefer being charged up to 75-80% SOC range, not to 100% every time. I charge all my phones up to that limit to reduce wear and prolong life.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...ased_batteries

I don't know about you, but I'd rather not have a high powered Li battery pack powering my inverter. Prefer L-A till such time Li Ion is safer to use and can handle deep charge/discharge cycles.

Last edited by R2D2 : 30th April 2017 at 16:28. Reason: added upto
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Old 1st May 2017, 02:37   #975
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
Frankly, the Li option doesn't make sense to me at the asking price. Yeah, it's loaded with so called features which are gimmicks IMO. Also, Li (I assume they are Li Ion) batteries are sensitive to heat and combustible. You're looking at a disaster if they ever catch fire.

A 12V 100AH battery is 1200 Wh or 1.2 KWh (volts x amps) so it is the same as a 1.2 KWh Li battery. But both types of batteries have different discharge characteristics and Li Ion do NOT like deep and frequent discharge/charge cycles.
Of course, I am not considering buying it at that price and will have to replace with the same tubular lead. The gimmicks don't make any sense. Maybe when the price falls down by at least 50%, it would be a good buy. It is good to see Lithium entering the home battery storage sector in India. I would like to respectfully differ on the deep discharge cycle characteristics, and I could be wrong here. My father who has some experience with lead batteries tells me that if the voltage of a lead battery cell goes below 1.8V (from 2.2V), it used to get sulphated & damaged. Of course, the chemistry has improved now with VLRA and others, but earlier they had to always store lead batteries on trickle charge. I see that there are a lot of contradicting reports on the internet on Lithium vs Lead. They do come with bigger warranties such as 10 years for Tesla and some estimates say that they could much longer than that too. I read on batteryuniversity and a few other sites that Lithium handles deep cycles better and they are discharged to 80% while lead only to 50%. That means 1.2KWh Lithium is equal to a bigger lead battery in terms of capacity. I remember the old sealed lead batteries that came in emergency lights used to stop holding charge if it was kept discharged for a few weeks. Of course the technology and quality of those batteries were poor. While a discharged cell phone today springs back to life even if you recharge it after weeks or months even. At the same time, our 1st Exide InvaQueen 500 (150Ah) lasted a full 7 years, but the newer tubular Exide is failing in its 4th year.

Our Usha Zentra inverter has been going strong for more than 12 years now. It did need a repair of around 500-600 INR once a couple of years back. Other than that it has been an absolute delight. Not sure if Usha is still making inverters.

http://www.altenergymag.com/content.php?post_type=1884

This report from 2012 shows that Lithium performs better in hotter climates but I have also read reports that Nissan Leaf's batteries were degrading faster in hot Arizona. Overall lifetime cost is better for Lithium in hotter climates but lead trumps in moderate climates according to the above report. Note that back in 2012, the cost of Lithium was 600$ per kWh but now it is around 227$ per kWh and Tesla claims to be around 190$ per kWh.
Source: https://electrek.co/2017/01/30/elect...-tesla-190kwh/

One major trend happening is grid scale energy storage is moving to Lithium, MegaWattHour scale batteries are being setup around the world. They wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't economical in the long run over lead. Also home battery storage often coupled with solar in Australia and Europe is mostly Lithium now. Tesla's Powerwall is certainly famous, part of which is also the brand. Current prices in India doesn't justify Lithium for storage even with 10 year warranties like Tesla. Yes safety is a concern, but we have been using them in our pockets for more than a decade now though Note 7 was a different story. Overall I think it is safe to bet that Lithium is the future, may be when they are manufactured here (Tesla Gigafactory in India - wishful thinking ).
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