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Old 24th March 2010, 17:19   #61
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Originally Posted by vjoy3 View Post
My point on linux phones pre android - how many were commercially successful. None - no where closer to the ones that were released same time as these and got mass acceptance.
Dude there is a huge market beyond USA and EU and that is Japan it was Linux Country. Any way it is pointless to argue here.
Also Motorola LJ was doing well their financial woes and decision at top by new CEO Sanjay Jha to go solo with Android was not technical.
Google has financial and marketing muscle that is accepred

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Jblend / Aplix - never heard of them.
A google search may help you here. Aplix is a small companey but innovations come from smaller player. This time in Mobile World Congress in Barcilona I saw another small player who demoed a Dalvik alternative this was proposed in OHA but rejected by big brother.

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Mass acceptance and having a leader to drive the technology is crucial. Just having the fastest software does not help. Again, I go with human experience - my experience to be specific - no stats for me - 900 times does not help unless I get access to it on a phone and impress me
You already have access to it and can repeat this experiment,
It is quite simple actually take any mass market phone which has J2ME on it ( I took Samsung beat , ARM 9 at 200 MHZ) and take a Android phone ( I took ARM11 @528 Mhz , MSM7201A based ) now the mips difference between these two processors is around 100 times.

Next take a simple loop in Java which has large multiplication and division instructions in it , Take timestamps before entering loop and after exiting loop.

long start = System.currentTimeMillis();
int[] image = new int[8*320*480];
for(int i = 0; i < (8*320*480); i++) {
image[i] = i;
}
long end = System.currentTimeMillis();
long elapsed = end - start;
count++;
avg = avg + (elapsed - avg)/count;
String s_avg = "Avg exc time : "+avg+" msec";
String s_elapsed = elapsed + " msec";

The difference in time taken need to be multiplied to difference in processing power.


If you can trust internet sources there are so many comparison already availble.

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Originally Posted by vjoy3 View Post
GNU Lib C is not central to Linux. It was removed with a purpose - GNU
Google continues using and contributing back to linux kernel. They do push all its partners to design/code such that they can be opensourced. Its only the Samsungs and HTCs of the world that try to keep their advantages out of kernel ...but then its understandable that they want to retain their lead.
GNU lib C and licensing aspects are understandable but removing lib C features and removing System V IPC which are central to Linux is the real issue.

Well sounds like a official spokesman's word but Samsungs give back to community http://opensoure.samsung.com may be of some help.

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Guess we are on same page that android UI is scalable. That is what I may
No we are not , My eloberate explanation on why Android UI framework can not be called scalable went waste.
It would be best if you study SKIA and compare it with X + Cairo and how Linux is able to support UI scaling.

You have not answered why Android netbooks are not able to run 2 UI together which is central requirement of any desktop answer lies above.
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Old 24th March 2010, 21:17   #62
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No we are not , My eloberate explanation on why Android UI framework can not be called scalable went waste.
It would be best if you study SKIA and compare it with X + Cairo and how Linux is able to support UI scaling.

You have not answered why Android netbooks are not able to run 2 UI together which is central requirement of any desktop answer lies above.
Sanjay Jha must have done some selling to Motorola's board of directors to hire him for such fat package(when rest of the company was falling apart). But given that their in house platform for low end fones was not growing leaps and bounds and the other contender for smartphone OS - M$ is falling behind, makes sense to go with the leader.


Dude, I want to measure & see differences in human terms and not stats. Show me a end user experience on both to prove the point.

My mistake. Wanted to say that android UI is not scalable. See, now we are on same page. Peace. Power to Open Source.

Vijay
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Old 24th March 2010, 22:45   #63
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Dude, I want to measure & see differences in human terms and not stats. Show me a end user experience on both to prove the point.
I already showed in human terms , A low MRP phone like Samsung Corby retails at the bills of material cost of Android phones. So in end user terms it is still not possible to make an Android phone with high end features at ultra low price. From end user point of view only difference is Android Market place which is due to google and not any technical feature of Android.

Any way fanboyism aside technically it has long way to go. About Sanjay Jha yes he is highest payed CEO who took an easy way out to please market by cutting internal R&D totally and brought legendry Motorola to level of HTC. Yes Motorola will survive but only as shadow of it's former self and most probably someone from Taiwan may aquire the brand and comp.

Remember AT & T , It exists today just as rename of Cingular.
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Old 26th March 2010, 11:20   #64
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
I already showed in human terms , A low MRP phone like Samsung Corby retails at the bills of material cost of Android phones. So in end user terms it is still not possible to make an Android phone with high end features at ultra low price. From end user point of view only difference is Android Market place which is due to google and not any technical feature of Android.

Any way fanboyism aside technically it has long way to go. About Sanjay Jha yes he is highest payed CEO who took an easy way out to please market by cutting internal R&D totally and brought legendry Motorola to level of HTC. Yes Motorola will survive but only as shadow of it's former self and most probably someone from Taiwan may aquire the brand and comp.

Remember AT & T , It exists today just as rename of Cingular.
Good luck with your corby there. Going with BOM yeah?. Enough debate has happened on that in gizmodo...further down the path we may start claiming that key components are all made of silicon, so essentially a pile of sand would do

May be you want to revisit the feature set of eclair 2.1 and see who else provides them. Or are we next planning to suggest title of this thread as "Samsung corby - The Next Big Thing in mobiles? "

Even going by your argument this only difference - Market Place (technical?) is a big deal. You have access thousands of apps free to download turning your brick to a live phone. It also happens to be bread and butter to thousands of developers. Given the democratic way the apps are rated, the most creative ones will flourish and you do not even have someone like apple to do policing.

I can only speculate that the Motorola BoDs had better insight and are smarter than many in agreeing to do Jha's bidding. They still have a fantastic R&D team, albeit focussed on result oriented research rather than some old platform for low end phones which was no longer viable and another for smart phones which was decade behind the leaders.

AT&T - Did they ATTEMPT to do anything drastic like Moto did?. Who knows that would have helped them too save the day.

Vijay

Last edited by vjoy3 : 26th March 2010 at 11:21.
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Old 26th March 2010, 11:44   #65
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Good luck with your corby there. Going with BOM yeah?. Enough debate has happened on that in gizmodo...further down the path we may start claiming that key components are all made of silicon, so essentially a pile of sand would do as "Samsung corby - The Next Big Thing in mobiles? "
Programming and resource utilization efficiency matters more in high end market rather then low end.

May I suggest you to improve reading comprehension . Nothing to laugh at look at the feature set and then talk. Even a lowly Corby is more feature rich then G1,G2 and others and that's why I picked it up.

Ever wondered why despite all the talks of FOSS why Android phones cost so much ?

leave the Corby aside ( though it has set benchmark in mass market phones)

Lets talk of smartphone segment.

Ever wondered by Android is just 1% market still , Iphone has 10% market share and Blackberry 20% and Symbian more then 45% ( others are eating in to symbian)

As of today can you write a H.324M stack in Java and make it perform on Android as down-loadable application ? Why is it that collaborative productive applications for Video , desktop and document sharing like Cisco Webex , ooVoo or some other are still not there in Android marketplace while they exists for iPhone and Blackberry ?

The reason is plain old performance , With Multicore ARM at 1 GHZ currently at high end you may get performance for these apps of yesterday but not for apps of tommorow.

How about 1080p recording or a game like Khron which is so yesterday and was demonstrated in last years mobile world congress.

Why is it that even 1st generation iPhone with samsung SC64010 processor is more feature rich then later androids running on high end processors ?

Lowly feature such as Navigation can not be supported on first hardware which Android selected MSM7201A at 533Mhz where as Symbian is supported that for ages on even ARM9 based phones.

Why cant Android 2.1 be ported on a G1 device with all the features such as navigation.

The keyword is performance my friend.

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Originally Posted by vjoy3 View Post

Even going by your argument this only difference - Market Place (technical?) is a big deal. You have access thousands of apps free to download turning your brick to a live phone. It also happens to be bread and butter to thousands of developers. Given the democratic way the apps are rated, the most creative ones will flourish and you do not even have someone like apple to do policing.
Again marketplace is a business model which Apple thought off. Look what kind of applications are in iPhone market and what are in Android market the reasons are purely technical.

Let me ask simple question is it even possible to write a H.324M stack and VT application and offer it on Android as of today, The performance sucks.

Apple did not support video for quite some time but 3ed party developers were able to provide.

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Originally Posted by vjoy3 View Post
I can only speculate that the Motorola BoDs had better insight and are smarter than many in agreeing to do Jha's bidding. They still have a fantastic R&D team, albeit focussed on result oriented research rather than some old platform for low end phones which was no longer viable and another for smart phones which was decade behind the leaders.

Vijay
How many phones or smartphones you have worked on.

Last edited by amitk26 : 26th March 2010 at 11:48.
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Old 26th March 2010, 12:27   #66
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Finally with ad-supported phones and a cut in the money for the carriers, Android may become more successful in markets where handsets are subsidized.
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Old 26th March 2010, 12:37   #67
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Finally with ad-supported phones and a cut in the money for the carriers, Android may become more successful in markets where handsets are subsidized.
Even in operator controlled markets it may do good Vodafone is planning to port Vodafone 360 now on Android.

What I was discussing earlier was technical aspects and not business aspects which make Android and any Google service a winner.
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Old 29th March 2010, 18:06   #68
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Can only feel sorry for someone trying measure / label the individual rather than the idea. As everyone knowns BB & Symbian have been in the business for quite sometime.
Like I said earlier, google is all for opensource. Its the proprietary code/design ...stuff phone manufacturers(HTC, Samsung, LG, HP, Moto, Huawei etc.,) do not publish that google needs to handle more stringently and am sure that will bring down the cost.
And off course, the falling prices of corby or the hundreds of chinese phones in market which are even more feature rich but cheaper should not deter one from buying a technology / phone that is upgradeable.

Ignore the 'technical' part of above discussions. You won't need any of that to decide your next phone


More android phones coming your way -

HTC is launching snapdragon based phone. It is said to have HTC sense UI based on the latest google android release - eclair.
HTC - Products - HTC Desire - Overview
HTC Desire confirmed for March 29 launch on T-Mobile UK -- Engadget

Few phones coming to India -
LG and Motorola rolls out android phones in India | Ub News

As said earlier the google market place has thousands of apps for free download which are rated by users and you can pick the best in any category. Unlike the draconian rules apple enforces in itunes - the company reserves right to remove any app (under the pretext of security/competition etc., of course ) at its will, the 'market place' is open for all and the best apps will flourish.

Vijay
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Old 29th March 2010, 18:42   #69
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Can only feel sorry for someone trying measure / label the individual rather than the idea. As everyone knowns BB & Symbian have been in the business for quite sometime.
Like I said earlier, google is all for opensource. Its the proprietary code/design ...stuff phone manufacturers(HTC, Samsung, LG, HP, Moto, Huawei etc.,) do not publish that google needs to handle more stringently and am sure that will bring down the cost.
I think it is futile to discuss anything more on this. You are mixing up technical and business / political aspects again and again.
In case you have chaired any industry consortium body or even participated as a representative of member company you would understand what I am talking be it OHA , Symbian Foundation or LiMo or any other.

Buddy I am not sure what you want to convey here but let me tell you , I was pointing on technical aspect. You need snapdragon / Nvidia Tigra/ Samsung C110 or anyother multicore arm for Android 2.1 because of the inefficiency of the programming model and that jacks up cost.

I do not know what is your background or what do you do in life but regarding the highlighted portion let me tell you this is far from the fact,I am a participant and representative of my company in one of these forum/foundation (I can not name it here ) and there is a lot of business politics involved be it OHA or any other industry consortium.

As you can see the code patches are available from some of these companies as well but getting them accepted in mainline is a challenge and that is not about technicality but about control.

Android will remain controlled by Google no matter what this is the reason China Unicom created their own version of Andorid outside OHA governance model. Nokia Controls Symbian Foundation though it is Open Source now and the first OS version of Symbian phone is out but Motorola and Samsung sold off stake in Symbian before the foundation was created for the matter of control. LiMo is controlled by the only company which has commercialized LiMo phone that is Samsung.

I can not be so sure about Huawei and HTC but this is definitely not true for others.

Last edited by amitk26 : 29th March 2010 at 18:57.
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Old 29th March 2010, 19:20   #70
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Chill guys, as we all know this kind of issues exists on all products and we the "users" care for VFM and usability.

Today, Motorola has launched Milestone with Android 2.1. What is the opinion about this phone from the experts?

Following link has this news:

Tech2.com India > Motorola Milestone Launched in India > News on Mobile Phones Mobile
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Old 29th March 2010, 19:34   #71
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Chill guys, as we all know this kind of issues exists on all products and we the "users" care for VFM and usability.

Today, Motorola has launched Milestone with Android 2.1. What is the opinion about this phone from the experts?

Following link has this news:

Tech2.com India > Motorola Milestone Launched in India > News on Mobile Phones Mobile
@Selective: Motorola Milestone is nothing but the GSM version of the Motorola Droid (verizon - cdma). The droid was a major milestone in the history of both Android and Motorola. The droid is definitely a great device next only to Nexus one (opinions might differ here). So the GSM sibling should be equally good.
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Old 29th March 2010, 19:51   #72
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
I
Buddy I am not sure what you want to convey here but let me tell you , I was pointing on technical aspect. You need snapdragon / Nvidia Tigra/ Samsung C110 or anyother multicore arm for Android 2.1 because of the inefficiency of the programming model and that jacks up cost.
At the onset let me pronounce that the only knowledge i have of Cellphones and their ilk is through web reviews and forums. But isn't the HTC tatto and the Samsung i5700 getting 2.1 and as far as i was aware they both run lower end hardware(nothing like a snapdragon or .?

Even the HTC magic and other HTC phones (G1/ Dream not included) are rumored to be getting the upgrade
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Old 29th March 2010, 22:25   #73
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At the onset let me pronounce that the only knowledge i have of Cellphones and their ilk is through web reviews and forums. But isn't the HTC tatto and the Samsung i5700 getting 2.1 and as far as i was aware they both run lower end hardware(nothing like a snapdragon or .?

Even the HTC magic and other HTC phones (G1/ Dream not included) are rumored to be getting the upgrade
Guys let me make it clear the comparison I gave was of OS performance relative to it's peers but some how Googles business aspects such as open source model and free app store are being dragged in this discussion. As I said Android is winner on the count of community traction and only a google could have done it. Nokia nearly failed to do the same in case of Maemo and Samsung and Motorola performed miserabely in LiMo (Mot exited one year back).

Having said that I would stand to whatever I wrote from technical point of view , Android is no longer Linux ( Just using modified Linux kernel is not enough , If that is criteria then Mac OS-X can be free-BSD as well)

Coming to question put by sreedotk

Samung i5700 has SCc64010 Soc ( ARM11 Core at 800 Mhz and lots of hardware codecs and a graphics core which gives OpenGL-ES)this is successor of what used to be there in earlier iphone so it can run Android 2.1 and support apps of today.

On the other hand MSM7201A based phones ( G1,i7500) can not run all the applications which are coming on Android 2.1 I have absolutely no idea what is inside HTC tatoo. XDA developer forum can give you 2.1 builds for oldest hardware but the apps still have performance issues and not all 2.1 apps can work.

Now talking about high end phones iPhone 3GS for example has a less RAM( 128 MB) and less powerful CPU ( Samsung C100 Arm 11 at approx 600 Mhz with a GPU) then Google Nexus one and Motorola Drois ( 512MB RAM and Snapdragon) and latest Samsung Galaxy S ( CPU is Samsung S5PC110 which is Soc with Cortex A8 and a powerful GPU, This CPU is successor of what Samsung supplied to Apple for iPhone 3GS) but still from end user point of view iPhone 3GS can run more complex and processor intensive operations as compared to Samsung Galaxy-S which has best hardware spec in market today.

Companies like Motorola and Samsung can still provide complex applications with engine written in C a JNI interface and UI and app flow in Java but not the 3ed party apps which have to implement totally in Java unlike on iPhone platform.

Also we need to distinguish the native middle-ware which is mostly in C and then a JNI layer exposes the java from 3ed part App ( only written in Java)
The point I was trying to make was unlike iPhone on a low end hardware it is not possible to make 3ed party app perform well with out root access.

Anyway one can run the java loop i posed some time back on this thread which purely tests the JVM performance.






Last edited by amitk26 : 29th March 2010 at 22:40.
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Old 30th March 2010, 03:38   #74
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Here's something interesting I read on Google and Android, which was kind of disturbing:

Quote:
Google has been sweetening the pot for both manufacturers and carriers of Android devices by tossing in a cut of the ad revenue generated from their services -- search, Maps, and the like. This would certainly explain Android's stratospheric rise through the ranks in carriers' lineups around the globe, and -- more importantly for consumers -- gives them more wiggle room to slap huge subsidies on handsets (assuming the trickle-down economic effect kicks in at all). For competitors, Google offers a unique value proposition here that can't really be met by anyone except perhaps Microsoft -- and with Redmond looking to reestablish its relevance in the mobile space this year more than any other in recent memory, we could definitely see the two sparring to line Verizon's and AT&T's pockets with the most green.
Source

While the source has added that Google has gotten back telling the revenue share is applicable only for their Search and not for applications, I'd say it still gives them an edge to sweeten their deal with manufacturers / service providers. Is it a fair business practice, I am not the one to say yes or no.
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Old 30th March 2010, 09:28   #75
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Here's something interesting I read on Google and Android, which was kind of disturbing:

Source

While the source has added that Google has gotten back telling the revenue share is applicable only for their Search and not for applications, I'd say it still gives them an edge to sweeten their deal with manufacturers / service providers. Is it a fair business practice, I am not the one to say yes or no.
So now I hope it may be much clearer when I said business model and control what it may mean.
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