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Old 10th February 2009, 11:07   #31
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Perhaps this is the right time to again express my eternal gratitude to `reignofchaos' for helping me select the right equipment, which has been giving me pleasure for more than 7 months.
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Old 10th February 2009, 11:25   #32
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How about Mirage nanosat?

Mirage Nanosat - Platinum/Black 5.1 Channel Platinum Black Nanosat Series Speaker System Platinum Black Finish at Vanns.com | reviews
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Old 10th February 2009, 11:44   #33
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Default The demon called Denon

Hi,
I have had the good fortune to see one of the Denon systems (S-302)

Denon USA | S-302


in action. It was mind blowing.Total wireless system at the friend's place, and the audio quality is a brain bazooka. I was in a trance for a good hour.
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Old 11th February 2009, 07:20   #34
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Originally Posted by manveet View Post
I don't understand. Are you saying that Subwoofers are not required for high quality music? IMHO, a Sub makes a WORLD of a difference, at least in ICE.
Subwoofers are neccessary in car ICE, because the main speakers don't produce the deep bass. Likewise in a home theatre system, because the speakers are small. However, if you have floor standing speakers, the speaker itself is capable of providing deep bass - i.e. you don't need the subwoofer neccessarily.

One more thing, internationally this is the opinion about BOSE.
- Bose is yuppie equipment - it's a status symbol. However, it's not
the preferred equiment for audiophiles. You can do better at the same price.
- Bose is good if you don't want to spend time on matching/selection etc.
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Old 11th February 2009, 08:10   #35
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What I have personally heard about Bose is that they do not subscribe to the normal Hi-Fi aspiration for a flat response across the board. Instead, they focus on recreating a live environment which sounds nice to you.

Serious listeners hate Bose for this reason. And they are grossly overpriced.
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Old 11th February 2009, 09:09   #36
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Originally Posted by ImmortalZ View Post
What I have personally heard about Bose is that they do not subscribe to the normal Hi-Fi aspiration for a flat response across the board. Instead, they focus on recreating a live environment which sounds nice to you.

Serious listeners hate Bose for this reason. And they are grossly overpriced.
One thing which they are good at is showcasing the size of their jewel cube speakers in relation to the sound that it reproduces. But as pointed out earlier this is at a cost of accuracy of music reproduced.

As for recreating a live environment which sounds nice, A true live environment would mean reproducing every instrument and vocal frequency exactly as it sounded when it was played live. Which Bose does not do for sure.

A 2.5” satellite speaker can only reproduce high frequencies, the mid range and bass would be severely compromised and inaccurate given the speaker diameter.

Try this yourself and check.

Play a good music CD on any decent set of tower speakers (No sub plugged in). Now compare the same output played on your Bose system, this time with their Bass module switched off. I.e. only the satellite speakers driving. The sound would be almost tin pot like.

Another note is that, although they have 2 cube speakers in each satellite speaker. There is no active crossover for the 2 speakers, so both are driving the same frequency. At least with a crossover you could assume one is driving high frequencies and the other mid-low range frequencies.

They just aim on reproducing some piercing striking loud sounds, which tends to impress a novice.
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Old 12th February 2009, 00:01   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manveet View Post
I don't understand. Are you saying that Subwoofers are not required for high quality music? IMHO, a Sub makes a WORLD of a difference, at least in ICE.

And there is always a trade-off. In our case I have made it very clear that we are looking for discreet speakers that blend in the background. Therefore, huge tower speakers are already ruled out.
A sub is only useful if the main amplifier is unable to drive the speaker to its limits. Most music contains information upto 40Hz with a very few instruments going down to 30Hz. You do not need a sub woofer to produce these frequencies. Any decently designed 6.5"-7" ported bookshelf will produce mid 30's effortlessly when driven by a good amp. If its not doing it, the first thing to look at is the amp choice.

In a car its all different - car speakers are all technically infinite baffle. They don't have an enclosure and hence the limited low frequency response.


Quote:
I have already mentioned a budget. Tops is 1.91L for the Bose. Their advantage being small size and the Bose brand.

Disadvantage in Bose is that I will not be using the many features it offers like 48 DVD memory. Like I said, a TV will not be connected, this is NOT a home theatre. I'll gladly buy something cheaper by Bose but if I understand correctly, they don't sell Stereo, only Home Theaters.
Avoid bose at all costs. Its nothing but a waste of money.


Quote:
I've already mentioned, classical music to basic rock. Party music will be rare.



I don't think we have space to dedicate for floor standers - just won't go with our drawing room decor. Two Bookshelf speakers can be accommodated on the side-table or on fireplace (maybe), but thats about it.



Could you please elaborate. Lets say I am listeining to Dire Straits from my iPod. What is better, 2 stereo speakers or 5.1 AVR's.



Let me clarify, Dad has not mentioned a budget to any sales guy and nobody has advised him on "how to spend his money". Let's not do that her, and simply talk on the product front.

When I listen to Dire Straits in the Car, it sounds wayyy better with a Sub, now you are saying that Sub is not required.

Pehle to mujhe yeh batao, is CD and iPod music always Stereo? If yes, you are saying a Sub is not good for SQ. I don't seem to be in agreement here.



I am sorry but Budget is flexible. At this point I have shared most of the Info I have.

Would be glad if you and others can still help.
There are many many problems of not fixing a budget. You can get a decent speakers that start at 500 USD and go upto more than a million dollars. Do you mean to say you can afford the latter? What you can get is completely dependent on how much you wish to spend.

Its not just speakers, even amps have such a huge range that you can start off at barely nothing and go to astronomical figures. The same goes with sources - both digital and analog.

If all you want is to play ipod music, there's no real point in spending big money on audio equipment. You are better off buying something like an Audioengine A5.

When you get a speaker which costs say roughly a lac, it needs amplification which costs another lac or more, a source which costs a lac or more, cabling and power conditioning that requires a fat packet and finally room treatment which needs a lot of money. If you don't spend on any of these, then the speaker won't perform even at 20% of what it is capable of since you'll be limited by the cheap analog out of the ipod and lossy compressed mp3s.

This is the basic reason why I asked if you have a budget in mind. I've been in this hobby long enough now to be able to atleast let folks know that reproducing audio accurately is not a simple task. Beyond a point, it just becomes an obsession which unfortunately is what my state is now and beware its a huge huge money pit .

A good place to start looking for equipment would probably be stereophile.com or 6moons.com. You shouldn't limit yourself to what they review but you'll atleast get an idea of what its all about. As I recently learnt, a simple pair of speaker cables can make or break a system.

Last edited by reignofchaos : 12th February 2009 at 00:04.
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Old 12th February 2009, 00:16   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post

This is the basic reason why I asked if you have a budget in mind. I've been in this hobby long enough now to be able to atleast let folks know that reproducing audio accurately is not a simple task. Beyond a point, it just becomes an obsession which unfortunately is what my state is now and beware its a huge huge money pit .
Very truly said. If you want real music then do not make any budget and go for the thing which you like the most, audition each and every thing.
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Old 12th February 2009, 00:28   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeper View Post
The way you are doing your research and getting responses from other mates seems you are going towards hi fi system.

The hi fi system is a step forward to home theatre system and advantage of it is you can built it progressively and can up grade also progressively as in hi fi system you select the best product from specialist manufacturer.

To start building hi fi system you need to start with the heart of system that is AVR (Marantz & Denon are among world top two) which digitally decode all music and send each noise frequensy to separate speaker (Low, Mid & High). Going with harmon cardon for AVR is like going offroad with scorpio or safaries.

Along with your AVR you need atleast to go for Centre Speaker and Front surround as a next step to upgrade go for Rear surround, sub woofer and centre surround. For further upgrade go for projector and screen and there you got your hi fi system in place with multimedia room. (Wharfadel, B&W, Infinity and few european make speakers are world leader) JBL, yamaha, onkyo, harmon cardon are among commercially leading manufacturers that makes good intigrated system but they generates noise not music.

There is a magazine called "what hi fi" which got their web site too which will be quite help full to take the decision.

I bought my system from singapore the Denon AVR with Infinity primus series speaker system and 14" subwoofer. which cost me with all duties and air freight to India about 2.25 Lacs Rupees india equivalent.

All the best and welcome to the world of good music.
You've got it wrong there. All of the above is NOT what I am looking for. This is a one time purchase, there is NOT going to be any upgrade. I'm repeating - will be happy with a pair of speakers and Sub driven by an Amp and a CD source that has a Line-in.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeper View Post
In summery if you are looking exclusively for music and that too in your drawing room Bose is the only option you are left with.
As of now their Lifestyle seems to be the best bet. But it has all that stuff like DVD memory etc. which I won't be using so don't want to pay for.
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Old 12th February 2009, 00:45   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
I wouldn't have thought one could go far wrong with Marantz or Denon --- and you can enter at your chosen price bracket in the range. Separate items means flexibility in the future, and less expense when something fails and can't be repaired.

...

Domestic, low/mid budget stereo has both improved hugely and come down in price. I think that. with a make like Marantz, even the entry-level stuff is not going to sound bad.
I like this suggestion of yours. But the reason I'll choose it is because I'll get better VFM at 1L than from 1.9L by buying Bose. i could be wrong but amnot really considering future flexibility/failure as a parameter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravveendrra View Post
Forget all the jazz about small, sleek etc. If you are looking for serious music and room filling sound (without being loud) the best speakers are the Bose 901. Yes, they are bulky and are normally fitted on floor stands. Yes, they were launched some 2 decades ago, but remember they still sell like hot cakes.
Rejected because of the reason in bold above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravveendrra View Post
I have a Bose LS 48 Series III, home theatre system and have no complaints. But I am an aspiring 901 owner! Having heard music come rolling out of those speakers, nothing else will ever do (at least as of today).
I am really happy for the choice you have made considering your requirements. I am sure its good equipment and suits your needs. But please appreciate that our expectations are different.

We are looking for something discreet (bookshelf speakers at MAX) with reasonably high quality and some snob value. We are not audiophiles but at the same time not looking for a Sony/Pioneer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker View Post
I think B&O will be close to 1.9 L it will be more...
Yes LBM, I've mentioned that in a later post. B&O is for 2.75L and do rejected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker
Manveet If you need good music and less space get a good pair of book shelf speakers with a nice amp and cd player (or anything else you like) it will be best thing for you.
Agreed. Please suggest Brands and where I can audition them on coming Sat/Sun. Total Budget = 1L, if I am not going for Bose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhallen.282 View Post
HOLD ON a sec! are we still talking about stealth or what? BTW KEF speakers are brilliant but tend to be not so honest about their sound. it also sounds underpowered specifically if you listen to their 5.1 systems. they are good for jazz and light soft listening. btw FOCAL is ALSO available too check those out. prices are as rare as the systems though. my pick would be denon or marantz with focal/b&o/polk. sorry if i'm repeating the last one i'm a rock and trance nut so i love the RTI series from polk and the utopia's from focal
All greek to me. Could you please articulate your suggestion clearly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
Marantz, Denon and to a lesser degree Onkyo are ok. But if you want something that you will use for a generation consider Rotel, Arcam, NAD or better
Onkyo is also an option but if Denon and Marantz are available in my Bracket and are better, I'd rather go for them. I think someone's mentioned the address (where they are available) in an earlier post on this thread, will check them out over the weekend for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
If you like the diffused sound of Bose, get some older Bose 901, replace the fullrange drivers with the Fostex 103 or if you are on a strict budget the Visaton FR10 or Tangband W4-1320SB or event eh Pioneer (see Parts Express for the exact mdoel number) and you can be in business. The Fostex 103 are about $30 each and the Visaton and Tangband are about 1/2 that.
Navin, I'm sure this is a good suggestion but franky we don't have the time/contacts/expertise to audition these systems, esp. if they are not easily available in Delhi.

Last edited by manveet : 12th February 2009 at 00:48.
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Old 12th February 2009, 00:49   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carboy View Post
Subwoofers are neccessary in car ICE, because the main speakers don't produce the deep bass. Likewise in a home theatre system, because the speakers are small. However, if you have floor standing speakers, the speaker itself is capable of providing deep bass - i.e. you don't need the subwoofer neccessarily.
Ok, once more. Floor standing speakers are OUT.

Therefore, we pretty much need a SW.
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Old 12th February 2009, 00:59   #42
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For a lac here's a suggestion - Marantz CD6002, Marantz PM7001, Quad 12L2 or Epos M5. There'll be enough left for in the budget for decent interconnects. Someone has already posted a list of dealers.
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Old 12th February 2009, 01:05   #43
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Originally Posted by Fillmore View Post
Play a good music CD on any decent set of tower speakers (No sub plugged in). Now compare the same output played on your Bose system, this time with their Bass module switched off. I.e. only the satellite speakers driving. The sound would be almost tin pot like.
Yes, what you are saying is true. But pointless. We should compare Apples to Apples. If comparing a Bose with something, WHY should I turn the Bass Module off and make a comparison?

No offence, but your example is something like this. A guy decides to buy a SUV for offroading and his options are a 4WD Scorpio (assuming) and a 2WD Safari at say, hypothetically the same price. So the Tata Salesman tells him, "Sir, please compare our Safari with Scorpio AFTER turning OFF the 4WD on Scorpio !!!"

Let me once again get the discussion back to my query and not go majorly OT, as is currently happening.

Firstly, I am NOT saying that tower speakers are not good. They are probably very good and lets say better than Bose. But WE DO NOT WANT TO BUY TOWER SPEAKERS due to aesthetic reasons.

So, what is my next best option after Tower Speakers? AFAIK,

1. Bose
2. A pair of satellites, an Amp, a SW and a Source.

So can you guys PLEASE help me to decide on something good at 1L for option 2. Or Dad is simply going to go and buy Bose at 1.91L.
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Old 12th February 2009, 01:14   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
A sub is only useful if the main amplifier is unable to drive the speaker to its limits. Most music contains information upto 40Hz with a very few instruments going down to 30Hz. You do not need a sub woofer to produce these frequencies. Any decently designed 6.5"-7" ported bookshelf will produce mid 30's effortlessly when driven by a good amp. If its not doing it, the first thing to look at is the amp choice.
Makes sense, but then a 7" bookshelf would be our last option, i.e. if we don't find something smaller.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reignofchaos
There are many many problems of not fixing a budget. You can get a decent speakers that start at 500 USD and go upto more than a million dollars. Do you mean to say you can afford the latter? What you can get is completely dependent on how much you wish to spend.

Its not just speakers, even amps have such a huge range that you can start off at barely nothing and go to astronomical figures. The same goes with sources - both digital and analog.
We don't have a budget budget, but know what is the max we will pay. Within that things may vary. As of now it is 1.91L for Bose. For anything else, it is 1L.

Now when I say I don't have a budget, it means we can make a net purchase of 60k or even 1.1L depending on where we see maximum VFM, also keeping non-tangible factors (that are difficult to document) in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
If all you want is to play ipod music, there's no real point in spending big money on audio equipment. You are better off buying something like an Audioengine A5.
Exactly. So, we are spending just about under 1L and not astronomical amount in audiophile terms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
When you get a speaker which costs say roughly a lac, it needs amplification which costs another lac or more, a source which costs a lac or more, cabling and power conditioning that requires a fat packet and finally room treatment which needs a lot of money. If you don't spend on any of these, then the speaker won't perform even at 20% of what it is capable of since you'll be limited by the cheap analog out of the ipod and lossy compressed mp3s.
1L is total cost, not just the speakers. There you go, trying to make a fellow overshoot budgets

Quote:
Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
Beyond a point, it just becomes an obsession which unfortunately is what my state is now and beware its a huge huge money pit .
And so it is apparent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
For a lac here's a suggestion - Marantz CD6002, Marantz PM7001, Quad 12L2 or Epos M5. There'll be enough left for in the budget for decent interconnects. Someone has already posted a list of dealers.
Aha, a proper suggestion. Will evaluate this on Sat/Sunday. Thank you.

Last edited by manveet : 12th February 2009 at 01:16.
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Old 12th February 2009, 02:48   #45
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I've missed a lot of posts here, but just wanted to add (before going, late, to bed) that not having tower speakers does not mean that you have to have a sub.

Not having tower speakers also does not mean that you have to go for one of these tiny-cube systems, Bose or otherwise. There are excellent "bookshelf" speakers available, that will not only give you good sound but also can be as expensive as you ever want to get!

Having "conventional" speakers also does not mean that you can't have a sub if you really want one (as long as the amp supports it, of course)--- but there really should not be a need, if you do not want to go in for head-thumping stuff.

Quote:
[Bose] just aim on reproducing some piercing striking loud sounds, which tends to impress a novice.
Stunningly damning, Fillmore: I'm prepared to believe it --- but disconecting the sub is not really a fair test on this sort of kit, as all the cubes are doing is giving enough sound to fool the ears that there is a stereo soundstage, rather than coming from one point, which most of it actually is --- the sub.

Good subs, by the way, are not small. They are not like the thing many of us probably have plugged into their PCs --- they are substantial boxes and, Manveet, you have been telling us that you are short, physically or aesthetically, of floor space.

I have no idea of the currant Marantz lineup. I have an inexpensive CD player, which outlived something much more fancy, and has been put into service, and it is fine. I'm sure that I'd be happy if I followed reignofchaos's recommendations you've just quoted.

I think it will be easy on your ears for hours and years: I am very unconvinced (although I have only brief, shop-listening experience) that the tiny cubes will, even though they may please the eye.
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