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Old 6th October 2015, 13:09   #46
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Default Re: How to terminate ISDN E1

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Originally Posted by arun_sharon View Post
The Legal angle of this will not allow you to do this. This is like TEHO which is not allowed in India. As per regulations you should have PRIs in each site for allowing PSTN breakout from that location and you should have proper CSS/Partition setup in case of cisco CM.
Can you point to the exact regulation you are talking about? Preferably, a link to government website.

This is not like TEHO. A call cannot span PSTN and Internet, that is the regulation. In his case, the call stays within the company network after leaving the PSTN.

Last edited by Samurai : 6th October 2015 at 13:29.
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Old 6th October 2015, 21:01   #47
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Default Re: How to terminate ISDN E1

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The Legal angle of this will not allow you to do this.
Quote:
you should have PRIs in each site for allowing PSTN breakout from that location and you should have proper CSS/Partition setup in case of cisco CM
Thanks a lot for confirmation , thats exactly what Pansonic guy told us , if I go with Cisco & have PSTN everywhere their PRI or FXO card becomes very expensive . If I opt for Panasonic NX-300 with SIP cards and licences it will be cheaper than Cisco but I am worried about audio clarity , if we keep everything same like VPN Bandwidth -is there any difference in technology on way 2 Cisco IP phones communicate vs say 2 IP or SIP phone of panasonic ?

And what are chances of someone actually creating problems for us due to this & what are fines ?

Quote:
you might need a OSP license
Are these expensive than regular PRI calls ? we don't have much incoming or outgoings - at the most 100 or so in a day out together at all places .

Else Can you suggest some other setup ?

Last edited by Turbanator : 6th October 2015 at 21:19.
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Old 6th October 2015, 22:06   #48
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Default Re: How to terminate ISDN E1

A service provider (SP/OSP) license to merely interconnect company branches over telephony? If this is true, India is truly returning to the 60s in grand fashion, when one required license to own a radio.

Thanks to these stupid red tape, we are still stuck with legacy technologies like TDM/PRI while the rest of the world has moved on to VOIP.
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Old 6th October 2015, 22:11   #49
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Default Re: How to terminate ISDN E1

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A call cannot span PSTN and Internet, that is the regulation. In his case, the call stays within the company network after leaving the PSTN.
Yes , Thats correct - but are you absolutely sure on this ?

Thanks for your replies - looks you guys have a wide range of experience
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Old 6th October 2015, 22:15   #50
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Default Re: How to terminate ISDN E1

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Can you point to the exact regulation you are talking about? Preferably, a link to government website.

This is not like TEHO. A call cannot span PSTN and Internet, that is the regulation. In his case, the call stays within the company network after leaving the PSTN.
The regulation states that cug calls cannot be merged with pstn calls in any circumstances

I do not have the exact doc in softcopy but have the doc from dot executive who has done the audit for us.

Public PSTN trunks will NOT be allowed to merge into a call with Private CUG trunks or remote phone users
Soft phones from remote locations should NOT be allowed to use PSTN Trunks
Public trunks will be allowed to merge with users STRICTLY in the same location


The senarios are explained in lync lbr doc of ms clearly
https://gallery.technet.microsoft.com/lync/Location-Based-Routing-for-34e85a9b
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Old 6th October 2015, 22:48   #51
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I back arun_sharon. SIP endpoints cannot have access to remote trunks - Local or international as it affects the revenue of the service providers. Additionally it is even worse if the SIP endpoints are in a different circle.
I use Matrix IPpbx in our offices across the globe. I use Asterisk with Google Voice trunks in India offices for calls to/from US/Canada regions.
All of my India & US sites are VPN connected and can dial local extensions from anywhere to anywhere but not access any remote trunks for making calls.
For eg. somebody in US cannot have access of India trunk line and dial a India phone number and vice versa.
In Matrix I have created partitions by which l can prove that to local authorities.
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Old 6th October 2015, 23:07   #52
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Default Re: How to terminate ISDN E1

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SIP endpoints cannot have access to remote trunks
So how can someone use One Phone to - IP Calls within company network & Call / Receive outside PSTN ? There must be some way ? And what sort of fines are we looking at ?

Our requirements are very simple - 3 Offices , 20 or so Staff which needs to speak to each other + around 3 PSTN lines at each location to receive and make calls which I had planned to convert to 1 PRI :(
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Old 7th October 2015, 01:11   #53
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Default Re: How to terminate ISDN E1

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Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
Yes , Thats correct - but are you absolutely sure on this ?
When it comes to Indian government regulations, nobody can be absolutely sure of anything. I interpret based on my technology knowledge. But government officers will interpret based on whatever that will suit them, and that is that.

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Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
Thanks for your replies - looks you guys have a wide range of experience
I first laid my bare hands on a C-DOT designed E1 PRI board back in 1989. Since then I have designed and developed IVRs, Recorders, soft phones, ACD and PBX on cloud. I also regularly design telephony solutions for customers around the world.

Funny thing is I created this thread when I got my first E1 PRI in my office, that was in 2009. Incidentally, we never designed or delivered a TDM based product after that. We only do VOIP since then. Thanks to Indian VOIP law, we don't focus on Indian market.

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Originally Posted by arun_sharon View Post
The senarios are explained in lync lbr doc of ms clearly
https://gallery.technet.microsoft.co...g-for-34e85a9b
Aha, they have changed the interpretation. I first looked up the regulation back in 2004, it specifically said call should not span PSTN and public Internet. Those DOT links (post#31) have vanished. It did not say anything about enterprise data networks, but only Internet. They have caught up and changed the interpretation to catch every possible revenue loss to local telcos. I wonder where is the link for these new interpretations.

BTW, the original regulation looked more like this: http://www.legalservicesindia.com/articles/teleph.htm

Therefore separation of CUG and PSTN is the new interpretation. Earlier, they didn't care about foreign PSTN. Now even that is being restricted. As I said, government keeps moving the goal post to suit their purpose.

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Originally Posted by htanna View Post
I back arun_sharon. SIP endpoints cannot have access to remote trunks - Local or international as it affects the revenue of the service providers.
The anti-VOIP law is the first anti-net neutrality law created in India, before most people knew what it was. It is like banning email to avoid revenue loss for postal service. International calling could be as cheap as local calls, if not for this draconian law created to keep the telcos fat and happy.

But they missed the bus on whatsapp, people used it for years without restrictions. Now that telcos are trying to restrict whatsapp, everybody is talking about net neutrality.

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Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
Our requirements are very simple - 3 Offices , 20 or so Staff which needs to speak to each other + around 3 PSTN lines at each location to receive and make calls which I had planned to convert to 1 PRI :(
Nope, you are out of luck then. The new interpretations doesn't allow for that.

Ok, forget Cisco & PRI unless you can afford to buy 3 of them. You need a 4-port FXO-VOIP gateway and a PBX in each location. The gateway and PBX can be in the same box. I am not familiar with telephony vendors in India, so I can't suggest brands. You could also buy a Sangoma A20002DE 4 FXO analog card, plonk it into an entry level PC running Asterisk or Freeswitch. Each setup shouldn't cost you more than 75K. This will only give you audio.

Now you understand how much this law is costing you. It is forcing you to 20th century technology in order to make revenue for telcos.
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Old 7th October 2015, 09:19   #54
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Default Re: How to terminate ISDN E1

Quote:
I interpret based on my technology knowledge. But government officers will interpret based on whatever that will suit them, and that is that.
Agreed , Can you believe my new iPhone 6 + is sitting at customs since last Tuesday for what - BIS Certificate - they want me to produce this before they can clear this consignment of 1 Phone .

Quote:
I first laid my bare hands on a C-DOT designed E1 PRI board back in 1989.
wow , thats quite a handful experience .

Quote:
I first looked up the regulation back in 2004, it specifically said call should not span PSTN and public Internet. Those DOT links (post#31) have vanished. It did not say anything about enterprise data networks, but only Internet.
Now funny thing is Airtel guys have absolutely no problems as long as I am not making hundreds of calls - they are of opinion if I am using this over internal network and making calls for own business ( apart from telemarketing ) they have no concerns and have offered me to have MPLS based solution from them instead of having 3 separate Leased lines which we have connected internally on a VPN . Thats will be a totally different query - will there be any difference in say 4 Mpbs MPLS given by Airtel vs VPN Created by us using firewall on 3 leased line of 4 Mpbs ?

Quote:
Ok, forget Cisco & PRI unless you can afford to buy 3 of them.
Can you confirm if the Audio clarity of a Pansonic exchange will be same as a Cisco IP Phone & will I manage to have same experiences when we have say 4or 5 persons in a conference ? Does Cisco handles Data in some different way over Pana -in case you have any experience of Pana SIP setup . Thanks Once again for all the information .

Last edited by Turbanator : 7th October 2015 at 09:21.
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Old 7th October 2015, 10:14   #55
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Default Re: How to terminate ISDN E1

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Thats will be a totally different query - will there be any difference in say 4 Mpbs MPLS given by Airtel vs VPN Created by us using firewall on 3 leased line of 4 Mpbs ?
Somebody actually filed RTI in 2011 to find out what is allowed and what is not allowed.

http://www.medianama.com/2011/09/223...-rti-response/

It clearly says Internet Access doesn't mean CUG like VPN, so CUG should be fine. It also says connecting to PSTN abroad is allowed.

Does this match with what the DOT auditors are saying now? You decide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
Can you confirm if the Audio clarity of a Pansonic exchange will be same as a Cisco IP Phone & will I manage to have same experiences when we have say 4or 5 persons in a conference ? Does Cisco handles Data in some different way over Pana -in case you have any experience of Pana SIP setup . Thanks Once again for all the information .
VOIP is now a very mature technology, it is over 15 years old. Even opensource software running on digium/sangoma cards will give you good quality. Voice quality issues will mainly come from bandwidth and congestion. Ensure your routers will respect QOS priority tags, voip packets usually have higher DSCP values.
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Old 7th October 2015, 10:53   #56
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Default Re: How to terminate ISDN E1

Let me be clear on OSP License: This is not required for inter office communications over VOIP. Rather would be required if you provide any service to a client via VOIP. For eg : if you have single Voice entry point which is going to be facilitated by multiple office locations you need to have OSP. OSP licensing is a costly affair as it runs to crores as deposit to obtain one.

The best suited solution for you would be having a ACD which supports logical partitioning. Eg : cisco CSS/Partition, Lync LBR. You can also consider the Audio codes Median ESBC or Sonus SBCs for your requirement. It would be always better to stick to LYNC / Cisco solutions as they are certified by DOT for their logical partitioning. If it is cisco or LYNC you can have a single ACD and separate PSTN gateways added in different partitions which will give you the intended result. Also take extra precautions on internal audio bridges and call forwarding scenarios when you opt for the solution.

Each service provider has their own way of interpreting the TRAI regulation when it comes to granularity. But one thing is clear if any provision that customer does which cause loss of revenue to SP they deem it not allowed. From my experience on deploying one of the world’s largest LYNC deployment and dealing with all the major SP in the country it is always better to stick to proven traditional ways in this land. Also do not relay on the sales pitch of provider / equipment vendor alone rather look out for the guidelines provided by Cisco / MS as they are vetted by many legal teams including large corporates.

Also keep in mind that you need to keep the log of all calls in the raw format for a year. By default CUCM CAR stores for 180 days and for Lync it is 60 days by default. Any time the DOT can request the data and we are bound to be producing the same. Failing to have the same can lead to huge penalties and legal complications which will have heavy impact on SMBs.

Finally once the deployment is done make sure you invite the Service provider who has provided the PSTN connectivity to visit and audit the set-up and provide a formal clearance on the solution for each site you have deployed as this is needed as per regulation.
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Old 7th October 2015, 11:31   #57
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Default Re: How to terminate ISDN E1

Turbanator is not a SP or OSP. He doesn't need all the above. And I suspect he cannot spend crores on obtaining a OSP license.

Also...
  • He doesn't need ACD. He is not running a call center, there will be no queues or agents. A dialplan would do fine.
  • He doesn't need SBC. He is trunking with either PRI or analog, and not SIP trunk.
  • He doesn't need to record the calls. He is not a telephone enabled service provider.
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Old 7th October 2015, 13:00   #58
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Default Re: How to terminate ISDN E1

@Turbanator - For your requirement,

1. Inter/Intra-office communication can legally be done with SIP over VPN for better security. You could achieve the same with firewall port forwarding to your internal phone systems (I would not recommend).
2. Same desk phone can make/receive external calls making use of the trunk lines at respective locations. But if you want to make use of single PRI, and if the locations are geographically located in different circles, it would not be possible. For that you could ask the service providers to do some kind of routing at their end. That would be possible. The benefit would be oh having a single dial-in DID number to reach anyone in the company irrespective of their location. Gateways (basically Telcos) are licensed to do that. They could also play with the CID for when calls for made from any of the locations, the receiver will see the same number they use to dial your office.
3. As for the hardware, I have been happily using "Made in India" Matrix IPpbx at all my locations. For the endpoints, I have deployed Matrix phones as well but still playing with different phones. Grand stream is what I am testing these days. I like Matrix because their R&D Dept is easily accessible and they are very open to accepting feature requests and working on it.
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Old 7th October 2015, 13:20   #59
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Default Re: How to terminate ISDN E1

Thanks to everyone , all this information has been really helpful .

Quote:
For that you could ask the service providers to do some kind of routing at their end. That would be possible.
Unfortunately they are not doing this either for intra circle so for chandigarh & ludhiana they are Ok but not between chandigarh & Gurgaon

At this time looks I will have to settle with 3 Panasonic NX-300 with SIP connectivity .

Nothing bad in Made in India stuff just that overall finish of Pana & Cisco looks good . I did checked grand stream but they have priced there products quite high in comparison to what they sell overseas .

One More query if you guys can answer -

As of now our 3 offices are connected on 4 Mpbs Leased lines via firewall . Airtel has proposed us a 2 Mpbs line at 2 branches & 4 Mpbs at Server location with One Internet link of 4 Mpbs - I want to understand if this MPLS setup is better than our self created VPN ?
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Old 7th October 2015, 13:28   #60
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Default Re: How to terminate ISDN E1

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Turbanator is not a SP or OSP. He doesn't need all the above. And I suspect he cannot spend crores on obtaining a OSP license.
I agree that OSP is not a solution / requirement for him . i just wanted to clarify on OSP front.


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[*]He doesn't need ACD. He is not running a call center, there will be no queues or agents. A dialplan would do fine.
By ACD i meant any call control engine be it CM or LYNC. since these now have the capability of automatic call distribution we usually call them as ACD.

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[*]He doesn't need SBC. He is trunking with either PRI or analog, and not SIP trunk.
Audio codes SBCs (eg Mediant 1000 E-SBC) are capable of accepting both PRI and SIP along with SIP conversion and in a hybrid environment this makes flexibility as it will not lock you to any vendor.

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[*]He doesn't need to record the calls. He is not a telephone enabled service provider.
If you have multi site deployment involving CUG and PSTN it is mandatory to have CDR retention irrespective of the solution that you provision. this is for DOT to do audit in circumstances where you are flagged for toll bypass violations.
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