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Old 14th August 2009, 00:45   #31
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Has anyone wondered why Apple is more stable than Windows?

Apple OS runs on Apple Hardware. Meanwhile, Windows has to run on hardware made by thousands of PC makers all over the world. Windows has to support 1000s of different combinations of system level hardware. And I am not talking about external accessories like USB devices.
You are right but as a user do we really care who makes the s/w and who makes the h/w. What matters it the wonderful user experience that Mac provides.
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Old 14th August 2009, 00:52   #32
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Others are mere boxes for entertainment!
I use my PC for telephony software development.

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Well, a Mac can do everything Windows can, plus do it a lot better!
That's good to know. Please tell me which all telephony boards are supported under Apple. I don't mind switching if I can get all those nice looking widgets.
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Old 14th August 2009, 01:20   #33
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I use my PC for telephony software development.

That's good to know. Please tell me which all telephony boards are supported under Apple. I don't mind switching if I can get all those nice looking widgets.
Haha. I meant from my pov (a college student's pov). We don't do any heavy stuff like Telephony Boards! I would be surprised if i can even explain correctly what telephony boards are! My activities are limited to some multimedia stuff, emails, browsing, photoshop, cad, downloads, torrents and some other relevant stuff. I am happy my Mac does all this with a breeze and that's probably all that matters to me!

@ Samurai - I guess even Mac supports telephony boards. Else how do Americans using Mac do your kind of work. Macs are popular all over US of A and sure there must be guys doing the work you do. I think you just have to look harder or simply ask a Mac Genius!
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Old 14th August 2009, 06:10   #34
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Thats the way it should be...especially when you consider the fact that you can buy almost 2 Compaqs for the price of a topend MBP.
umm.. Not really. My copy of OSX isn't from what you would call as "legitimate" sources. Even if you do buy the license from Apple (which I intend to do soon), Apple's T&C permit installation only on Apple hardware. So you are always on the dark side of the law.

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+1

As long as the mac users stay within decent limits while writing about windows and Linux.

Not many people know (or ignore) the fact that Mac OSX is "Unix in a nice suit" !!

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Mac OS X's core is a POSIX compliant operating system (OS) built on top of the XNU kernel, with standard Unix facilities available from the command line interface. Apple released this set of software as a free and open source operating system named Darwin. On top of Darwin, Apple layered a number of components, including the Aqua interface and the Finder, to complete the GUI-based operating system which is Mac OS X.
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Well, a Mac can do everything Windows can, plus do it a lot better! No crashes, no freezes, no blue screens, no auto restarts, no viruses, no nonsense. The GUI is awesome! The features are very good. Agreed that the price is a drawback but then its worth every penny.
Now i have a query:
My Mac OS X 10.5.7 on my Apple Aluminum Macbook takes longer to load/boot as my HDD space is filling up.
Try running OSX on non-apple hardware as Samurai mentioned and you'll have a similar number of freezes and blue screens (Only difference is that Apple will tell you that "your computer has crashed" in 3 different languages!!). IMHO, Windows 7 more than catches up with Mac OSX. One area that is still lacking is automatic backups (aka Time Machine). Windows 7 has one, but I don't think it is all that useful.

To partition, if the built in Disk Utility does not allow you to resize the existing partition, You can use GParted running on a USB drive/CD to create a separate partition from the existing one without destroying the data. But before doing that, do create a backup of OSX with Time Machine on a separate HDD.

BTW, I noticed you are still on 10.5.7 . When r u upgrading!!

Last edited by spadival : 14th August 2009 at 06:17.
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Old 14th August 2009, 09:33   #35
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BTW, I noticed you are still on 10.5.7 . When r u upgrading!!
Is there a problem with 10.5.7? Or you're just asking about OS upgrade?
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Old 14th August 2009, 10:00   #36
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My activities are limited to some multimedia stuff, emails, browsing, photoshop, cad, downloads, torrents and some other relevant stuff. I am happy my Mac does all this with a breeze and that's probably all that matters to me!
That is right, whatever Apple can do, it does it better than Windows. However, when you start saying Apple can do whatever Windows can do, you lose the plot. Apple was aimed at students, artists and home users for too long before they realised they missed the corporate bus, where the real money is... By then Windows owned the corporate desktop, even Linux has not been able to budge it even after a decade of various attempts.

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@ Samurai - I guess even Mac supports telephony boards. Else how do Americans using Mac do your kind of work. Macs are popular all over US of A and sure there must be guys doing the work you do. I think you just have to look harder or simply ask a Mac Genius!
Nope, only Windows and Linux are supported by most Telephony boards, Apple doesn't even figure in the list.

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You are right but as a user do we really care who makes the s/w and who makes the h/w. What matters it the wonderful user experience that Mac provides.
If your work can be done in Mac, then nothing like it. At work we often use software that has no support for Mac or alternative in Mac. Ultimately the work force uses the computer for the applications they support. For example, let's take a RDBMS, I have both MySQL and MS-SQL server running on my Vista, what wellknown RDBMS runs on Apple?

Remember OS/2, which only ran on PS/2? It was stable like a rock, but on expensive proprietary IBM hardware. It even gained decent corporate presence thanks to IBM's large customer base, still it lost the battle to Windows because of the need for proprietary hardware.

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Originally Posted by Rudra Sen View Post
Is there a problem with 10.5.7? Or you're just asking about OS upgrade?
I think he is merely calling your OS old, old man.

Last edited by Samurai : 14th August 2009 at 10:02.
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Old 14th August 2009, 10:10   #37
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i read an article on the net! Way back 2007, which prompted me to buy this mean machine (mac). i thought the article was well researched and well written. i am posting it here, hoping that it would clarify few doubts and allegation that are made against mac products.

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Source

Software comparison
A lot of people have asked me to dive into the software comparison between Macs and PCs. Software needs, however, are far more variable than hardware needs. For example, some people are required to use Microsoft Word, Excel or PowerPoint. They would be forced to either buy or get their companies to buy Microsoft Office 2004 for the Mac, which sells for $399 list.

I know that some of you believe that alternative office products negate the need for anyone to use Microsoft Office for the Mac. That simply isn’t true. There are interoperability issues with even the best alternative office apps. Trust me on this; some companies require us to use Microsoft products.

On the other hand, some people don’t have those constraints. They might be very happy, indeed, with a product such as NeoOffice, the free, open-source Mac office suite based on the OpenOffice.org office suite. Some Mac users believe that Apple’s $79 iWork ‘08, with the new Numbers ‘08 spreadsheet program, will do the trick.

So how do we figure this out? Do we tote up $400 in the Mac column or not? It’s not easy to draw reasonable comparisons about software on a level-playing field. I believe each person has to make his own assessment on the software front. Here are some software aspects I think you should consider when analyzing Mac vs. PC costs:

1. There is plenty of software available for the Mac, both from established software houses and from individuals. Surprisingly, there are more products in some product categories than there are for Windows. For example, every time I turn around, I stumble across another project management tool for the Mac. There are more browsers for the Mac than there are for Windows.

I don’t think Windows users realize just how many Windows software product categories Microsoft has come to own, eliminating all or most of the viable competition. Though it’s true that in some categories there are only two or three Mac offerings, all in all there is a very solid, rich spread of software makers creating Mac applications. As a longtime software reviewer, I’ve been surprised by the quality of these applications.

2. The $80 Parallels Desktop for Mac virtualization application lets you run Windows and Linux seamlessly on your Intel Mac and switch between Mac and Windows, for example, with a simple keyboard command. It’s even possible to run Windows applications as if they’re running in the Mac interface and to associate data files on the Mac with Windows applications. This extremely powerful tool literally gives you access to all your Windows applications on your Mac.

Parallels is one of the best software utilities I’ve tested in years. It adds a huge chunk of software value to any Mac purchase. VMware’s Fusion virtualization tool for the Mac competes with Parallels. Apple’s free Boot Camp beta software is less convenient than virtualization programs, but it offers the same ability to run Windows on your Mac.

3. You don’t need security software. OK, so I’m not one of those Mac users who chortles up his sleeve about security. I take it seriously. And I don’t think the Mac is inherently immune from security threats. But the real-world truth right now is that most security threats are aimed at criminal financial gain, and the Mac’s market share is just too small to be a cost-effective target. I mean, really, would you rather pirate the giant cargo ship with the gangplank resting on the dock or the buttoned-up tugboat moored 100 yards offshore?

Other than software to block spam, Mac users don’t need any of the security products that Windows users absolutely require — antivirus, anti-malware/spyware, identity-theft protection, antibot and so on. (The Mac comes with built-in firewall software.) There’s definitely a cost savings because of this. And I suppose we could work up some numbers based on annual subscription fees and the need to upgrade to new versions of security products every year or two. This does add up over time, but it’s not really a big chunk of change.

To me, the far more important cost is the system overhead, user distraction, system instability and the need for user troubleshooting that Windows security software entails.

Kenneth Burton, a technical director for a school system, e-mailed me with the same thought: “What about the issue of spyware and antivirus software? One of the reasons I switched to a Mac at home two years ago was because of the hassle of cleaning up the computer after my 16-year-old son.”

Another reader, Rudy Wolf, agrees. “Having just made the switch myself (we now own four Macs), I have to take exception to your [first article in this series]. You didn’t go far enough! Where is the discussion about the hours I used to spend messing with Symantec’s Norton utilities and Windows utilities to keep my Windows PCs running and optimized? I have personally gained one to two hours per week because I no longer have to maintain four Windows PCs.

“My MacPro is now almost two years old. In that time, I have not run one utility to defragment its disk, optimize the system or upgrade software. The worst I’ve had to do is press the Enter key a few times when the computer upgraded itself (flawlessly each time). I don’t know about others, but getting back 50-100 hours a year is a savings that has to be factored into the equation.”

4. Software is cheap. Unless you’re talking AutoCAD, Photoshop or Microsoft Office, software isn’t all that expensive, folks. Just two hours of my time spent working on a Windows PC problem is worth far more than the average cost of most software programs. Even if you’re retired, you have to factor in the time wasted wrestling with problems.

The point I’m trying to make is that, OK, so you may have to back your Mac purchase with an investment in software, but you had to do the same thing with your Windows purchase at some point. It’s a cost of doing business. But more important, you can amortize the cost of the software against the time you’ll save not wrestling with stupid PC problems.

The reliability factor
Mac users who have Windows in their past tend to agree on a simple point: The Macintosh operating system and its custom-tailored hardware make for a far more reliable, less trouble-prone environment than Windows. It’s difficult to put a price tag on that advantage, but it’s the advantage that I find the most compelling.

Remember the Yugo, a car introduced to the U.S. in 1984 whose main claim to fame was that it was incredibly cheap, woefully underpowered and highly trouble-prone? Yugos spent a lot of time in the shop. In considering the savings on the purchase price, Yugo buyers probably didn’t factor in lost personal time, aggravation, repair charges and what they were paying for transportation when their cars were being repaired. This is the very definition of being penny wise and pound foolish.

I’m not saying that Windows is a Yugo, believe me. But reverse the picture: The Mac represents the most reliable vehicle you can buy (perhaps a Toyota?). There’s a hidden value to having far fewer problems than average. And a big segment of the computer-using marketplace doesn’t seem to want to acknowledge that.

That’s why the single most frustrating thing about being a Mac user is the disdain with which some Windows users view Macs. Apparently, you’re not a real man unless you’re suffering with everyone else.

The thing is, I don’t think Windows users (I know, I was one myself for many years before my conversion) give much credence to the notion that Macs are far more trouble-free. Because it’s difficult to quantify, it must therefore be false. It’s a subjective data point. As a longtime Windows author, reviewer and expert, I know that I felt that I could solve any Windows problem (and probably could), and as a result, the Mac’s advantages held less benefit for me.

Surprise, surprise
But I was wrong about that. The unexpected advantage I gained is that using my computer is more enjoyable. My concentration isn’t broken periodically by problems, updates, security pop-ups and the like. I’m not thinking that I’m using a Mac. I’m thinking about what I’m using the computer to do — what I’m reading, writing, figuring, buying, watching and so on. The Mac becomes just so much chrome wrapping the data I’m interacting with.

You’re not conscious of your TV while you’re watching it. That’s the way it is with a Mac. I found that much harder to achieve on Windows PCs, which are constantly drawing attention to themselves.

Another reader, James Sugrue, put it this way: “The thing your article didn’t touch on was the value you can’t quantify with Macs: Not having to worry about malware, not having to rebuild your machine every six months because the registry has gotten corrupted or not having to deal with some dodgy driver that takes the system down.

“A recent switcher to the ‘Cult of the Mac,’ I’ve often wondered why I waited so long,” Sugrue continues. “I am a professional software developer, using Windows and Visual Studio, so I have a lot of Windows pain most days. I wish I could do all my dev work on the Mac. I see that being a major barrier to switching for most of my peers, even though there are great apps like Parallels and Boot Camp that could help. There’s a lot of ignorance about Apple for some reason among us technical types. A programmer at work said yesterday that he hated Apple. I asked whether he’d ever used a Mac. Nope.”

He’d probably hate chocolate if he hadn’t tried it, too.

Apple’s Mac Mini is a Trojan horse (not the malware kind) whose entire purpose is to cost little enough to entice Mac-curious Windows users to give the Mac a try. The Mac Mini is neither powerful nor portable. But it works just fine and will definitely give you the Mac experience. Or consider this: You can rent Macs. It’s not cheap, but it’s a lot less than buying even a new Mac Mini.
You’re not going to believe it until you try it yourself. I didn’t.

Last edited by Technocrat : 14th August 2009 at 13:06. Reason: Please read the note in post, thanks
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Old 14th August 2009, 10:18   #38
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I think he is merely calling your OS old, old man.
He didn't put that question for me but for Akki_5. Mine is older than that. It's 10.4.11.
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Old 14th August 2009, 11:26   #39
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Originally Posted by Akki_5 View Post
Well, a Mac can do everything Windows can, plus do it a lot better! No crashes, no freezes, no blue screens, no auto restarts, no viruses, no nonsense. The GUI is awesome! The features are very good.
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Now i have a query:
My Mac OS X 10.5.7 on my Apple Aluminum Macbook takes longer to load/boot as my HDD space is filling up. When the notebook was new, it took less than 10 secs to boot and now it takes 30 secs! On my 250gigs HDD i have about 175GB free now.
Does not compute.
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Old 14th August 2009, 12:49   #40
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He didn't put that question for me but for Akki_5. Mine is older than that. It's 10.4.11.
Old is gold.. I guess the Old tiger is still roaming the jungles .. Wait for a couple of months and it will be 2 generations old with the release of OS X 10.6.

AFAIK, OS X 10.4 == Tiger, OS X 10.5 == Leopard, OS X == Snow Leopard.
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Old 14th August 2009, 12:54   #41
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Wait for a couple of months and it will be 2 generations old with the release of OS X 10.6.
Apple (local) is going to change my OS to Snow Leopard as it comes out. Both my machines are PowerPC base.
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Old 14th August 2009, 13:20   #42
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My profession demanded what the Mac is best for :-) that is Design.

I am a Graphic Designer and the Mac is something I've always wanted. I purchased this 15" MacBook Pro last year in August.



Its now running on Leopard OS X 10.5.7



The best thing about the Mac apart from the OS is the screen. The colors we generate in our design software Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop come out just right on this screen.

Keynote the equivalent of powerpoint to windows is another software I just love. Show stopping presentations can be done in a jiffy with visual options that will blow your mind...


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Old 14th August 2009, 14:26   #43
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Has anyone wondered why Apple is more stable than Windows?

Apple OS runs on Apple Hardware. Meanwhile, Windows has to run on hardware made by thousands of PC makers all over the world. Windows has to support 1000s of different combinations of system level hardware. And I am not talking about external accessories like USB devices.

I always have advanced telephony boards (often worth many lakhs) of different companies plugged into PCI/PCIe slots of my regular desktop PC while running XP/Win2003/Vista. I run compliers, debuggers, videos and music among other things (browsing/document work) on the same PC.

I always liked the looks of Apple. Always wanted to have one. Then a thought would occur, that there is not much I can do with it. It would be a waste for me.
im in a similar situation.
i love the look and feel of a mac [hardware and software], but i primarily use my computer for games & media. so a mac is a waste of money that i don't have.

Macs are more stable than PCs... i know people who'll disagree with you.
our Macs [FCP] in office hang all the time. more infact than our PCs [Avid].

@ pranavt: i don't know if they whacked the concept of the mouse or the entire GUI, but if there is no GUI then a mouse is worthless [use a mouse in DOS.. ].
Mac does innovate, USB, Firewire, Scsi, are all mac innovations [I think, im not sure], but even if they aren't mac innovations mac made them standard and PCs followed.

PS: I'm a mac fan boy, but i'll never buy one.
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Old 14th August 2009, 15:11   #44
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Actually about hangs and BSODs (blue screen of Death) on windows, somehow I feel that these things are from past. It's been really long long time since I've seen a BSOD in my computers. My personal laptop used to hang while running Photoshop before but after change of RAM there is no hang at all. And even my dev box which runs XP have yet to see any BSOD and that's for last 2 years and it runs 12-14 hours daily with high load. I used to see lots of BSODs when I was using NT for development but on XP, none at all. Just wanted to make something clear about the windows.
Yes, for design/photo editing etc. Mac will be better but I don't have much complaint with XP too. And about Mac's stability I'll agree with what Samurai mentioned earlier.
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Old 14th August 2009, 19:22   #45
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Nice to see so many haters out here, just proves my point that windows users are quite stuck up and cant stand how happy mac people are with their systems.

Argueing that a Mac cant do specialized tasks for the niche market is kind of a knee jerk defence because if you would really want to do all that stuff with a Mac why dont you design the SDK or whatever yourself? In essence when we are discussing a PC its a personal computer not a specialized piece of machinery so dont take the argument to technical side. So whatever you throw at it word edition, designing and other daily tasks 99% of PC users around the world use their PC's for the Mac does it better, faster and in style!

People arguing with the exorbitant prices of mac's, well I was in the same boat till I had a tryst with Apple service. Because of the amazing service I got I purchased a top of the line (at that time) MacBook on the spot, as well as a Time Capsule. And to add to that I purchased Apple Care protection plan for all this hardware. I have full peace of mind lest anything goes wrong. Let me see the looks on people's faces when they are made to run around by service partners with offices in weird locations taking months to replace/fix lemons they keep selling to the unsuspecting public.

The price spent on a Mac is well worth it, only owners of a Mac would understand that. I had spend over a lakh on a brand new Sony VAIO AR series once and the palm rests squeaked. The only other company that makes PC's I've been happy with is IBM and I have a Z60m that I use if I ever need *sigh* windows. I would never install it on my Mac, and ever since IBM was taken over by Lenovo I lost faith in them as well. Because of a service related problem with my laptops charger.

No use bickering and argueing here in this thread, I can answer well to all the people trying to poke and prod around here. The love for apple is definitely worth an infraction. But please if you dont have anything worthwhile to discuss/say please keep out of the thread its not going to do any good. The PC vs Mac war is endless. Be happy with your beige box and we will be happy with our stupid Mac's

There are usually some or the other deals going on with my Dealer so if yo are ever in the market to pick up some yummy mac hardware do PM me ill forward you his details. I would advice curious people to never pick up Mac hardware off the shelf, you can get many many good deals if you hunt and bargain around.

I want to share a big big tip with everyone out here if they dont know it already, if you are in the market to pick up a Apple Protection Plan I know a guy on ebay USA who can sell it to you at almost fraction of the cost of what it is available here in India.

@Abhinav : How much did you get it for, what made you buy it?
@Lionel : Welcome to t-bhp mate, nice looking MBP you've got there.
@All : Running 10.5.5 cant hardly wait for Snow Leopard
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