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Old 9th June 2014, 01:05   #1441
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Default Re: iBhp - Think Different (team-bhpians on a Mac)

So post the below mentioned episode, I decided to upgrade my Macbook's RAM from existing 4 GB to a maximum possible of 8 GB.

Enquired at 'F1' the authorised service centre who had replaced the book's logic board (under warranty) and was quoted a mere 18000/- + taxes + labour for a single stick of 4 GB. So 36000/- ++ only for 2 sticks of 4 GB each.

To cut a long story short took an online field trip and then someone travelling to our shores offered to carry it back. This is the result

iBhp - Think Different (team-bhpians on a Mac)-photo-090614-12.38-am.jpg

Damage was less than $100/- say INR 6000/- including CC changes and currency conversion charges etc etc plus now I have an excuse to spend a Saturday afternoon indoors away from the fireball of a Sun and also 30000/- saved and available for a small vacation to maybe Sirmaur or Chamba......decisions decisions

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Thanks tilt. So I uninstalled both the memory, Mac keeper and several other things that I had and the ring of death has disappeared. The machine even boots faster, I am a happy man.
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Old 9th June 2014, 11:17   #1442
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@LiveToJive,

The Mac can do almost everything you listed. However, I am not sure about #6. I am not sure about being able to manage music transfers without iTunes. I know there are Windows utilities that help you do that, but on a Mac - no idea.

Incidentally, your friend should be able to install any flavour of Linux on the Mac, so if you or he hates Mac OS X so much, he can still get what's considered to be the best hardware in the world, and use whatever you folks think is the best OS in the world. Best of both worlds, right?

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Old 9th June 2014, 15:17   #1443
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There is a reason why Mac will never take away Windows dominance in enterprise. Apple never cared much about central management of large number of Macs. I have few Macs in my office, but they can't be centrally managed unlike the Windows PCs. Now imagine managing a fleet of 1000 or 100000 macs in a corporate office.

I saw this great post from Scott Humble, want to quote it:
Quote:
Unfortunately, Mac doesn't scale efficiently. For smaller businesses, they can work because scale through enterprise management isn't as much of a factor. They can afford to use a more hands on approach. As an organization matures with more endpoints, they need more and more efficiency. Many, many years ago, Apple made a half assed attempt to improve Mac management through their server product. If memory serves, it was known as Remote Desktop. That product was essentially abandoned by Apple but there is still a small subset of community support for automated scripting. They are basically runbooks. Unfortunately, Apple doesn't appear to have much of an interest in changing this aspect of their product. They have almost no online support for Mac in the enterprise. You will actually find more information about managing Macs in Microsoft's TechNet than you will through Apple. There are many gaps that exist. Among those, the Mac OS always assumes that LDAP or Domain membership has no fundamental impact on authority and the source of record. You can join a Mac OS to a domain but that doesn't inherently provide the domain with management authority. That is a separate process that requires an end user to authorize. It is very similar to an MDM strategy but it makes it very difficult to provision and manage them. Microsoft's SCCM provides management agents for Mac but OSX requires a certificate authority to do so. And again, staging an agent on a company purchased asset is limited to end user interaction. Part of the reason for that is because of the complete lack of an appropriate mechanism that will, "Sysprep" a Mac image so that it removes any unique identifiers prior to joining it to the domain. Many shops will use basic drive cloning processes that result in duplicate unique identifier objects in the directory services infrastructure. The only correct way to manage a Mac in a modern day enterprise environment is to almost completely avoid many industry standard practices for automation and use more manual processes that require end user intervention. Hence, we come back to my original statement. Mac doesn't scale very well. It is possible to manage them but most of the time, Macs are largely unmanaged. Because of that, some large scale projects become significantly more complex because you need to account for a minority of endpoints. It makes it even worse when every Mac is also running a virtual instance of Windows. Many of those are also unmanaged and licensing is rarely accounted for. In the end, 95% of end users expect everything on their computing devices to simply work. They don't want to control how they access services or what tools they use to do so. Mac tends to be very high touch in that regard. Windows systems and tools are built from the ground up to support layers upon layers of management in complex enterprise environments. As a consultant, my heart just drops every time we start working with a client who wants us to manage Macs just like we do with Windows. The expectation and assumption is that they are on par but that simply isn't true from an enterprise management perspective. Google encountered the same problem with OSX. They actually had to develop their own management infrastructure to be able to scale Mac internally. Microsoft's understanding and support for IT is unparalleled. The depth of that understanding would be almost impossible to qualify or quantify. They are probably 10-15 years ahead of any other platform that many would consider but you could argue that they don't actually have any competition in that regard.
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Old 9th June 2014, 16:55   #1444
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... Now imagine managing a fleet of 1000 or 100000 macs in a corporate office. ...
Macs, being Unix machines fundamentally, don't need that much of "management". The "managing machines" part is Windows-specific, both the problems as well as solutions. Doesn't matter if MS knows more about managing machines than others - they are just giving a solution to the problem that they themselves created. Even that is not really an elegant one, despite NT having injected some amount of Unix-like elegance. Had it been any different, there would be 1000's of jobs less in India - remote infrastructure management!!!

As far as the quoted gentleman is concerned, he is probably a dyed-in-the-wool MS systems engineer - born (into the profession) with a unipolar view of the world.

The reasons for MS domination of the corporate world have been quite different:

* Beg, borrow or steal, MS managed to give to the enterprise world critical pieces of software (Word, Excel, PP). Apple was slower off the blocks, and not aiming at world (economic) domination. Apple's biggest mistake was thinking that people will use their intelligence and the ecosystem will contribute - unfortunately it didn't. That Apple ultimately switched to making and selling 'complete' computers that work without worrying about software came a bit too late

* There were 2 companies investing towards the enterprise environment, not 1. MS AND Intel. The need was always latent, as soon as the early desktops (CP/M based, and later MS-DOS) proved the improvement in work efficiency beyond doubt. MS software was never any better than MS-DOS till the middle 90's - when providence brought NT into the enterprise market. Apple was not there, neither at that time nor in that market

Macs have been made for people who know what they want to do (not necessarily managing their machines). Apple bet on this world.

MS Windows machines are made for people who don't (and no marks for guessing the numbers). Unfortunately they land up doing weird things on their machines. This was further complicated by the flexibility (good, but - in hindsight - really bad) with 3rd party software, with malware requiring more attention than actual work. Isn't that a wonderful business opportunity? The whole "machine management" problem is based on this - virtually making enterprises captive to the MS software environment.

In the enterprise environment, everything is fine as long as there is a solution to problems. No one in an Enterprise looks at why the problem occurred in the first place. As long as the departmental report goes on time, everything is fine. BYOD is changing that today, though it will take many years for that to be pervasive.
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Old 9th June 2014, 18:35   #1445
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Macs, being Unix machines fundamentally, don't need that much of "management". The "managing machines" part is Windows-specific, both the problems as well as solutions.
Not sure what you mean by that. Say I have to roll out a new software in 1000 machines, and configure it. How does one go about doing it in fully Mac environment? Why is this a windows specific problem?

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Doesn't matter if MS knows more about managing machines than others - they are just giving a solution to the problem that they themselves created.
What is the problem they created? I worked in the corporate environment before and after NT, in both Windows and Unix environment. Not sure how NT created a problem.
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Old 10th June 2014, 00:04   #1446
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Incidentally, your friend should be able to install any flavour of Linux on the Mac,
I am aware of that, but that's not the idea of buying a Mac.

Quote:
so if you or he hates Mac OS X so much,
It's not about hating Mac. It's more about moving away from Windows and Mac & Linux are the alternatives. I have chosen Linux as that is what I can afford.

Quote:
he can still get what's considered to be the best hardware in the world,
That is what he is looking for.

Quote:
and use whatever you folks think is the best OS in the world. Best of both worlds, right?
Both of us have already moved away from Windows. For him it's just the matter of getting used to Mac. For me I have nothing against Mac except the cost.

Which brings me to the next question:
Most people migrate from Windows to Mac and most of their problems are associated with getting used to the new OS since they are brought up with Windows. In the case of my friend he's already very comfortable with Linux. Will it be easier for him to adapt to Mac? After all Mac & Linux are both based on Unix, so they should have some similarities.
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Old 10th June 2014, 12:48   #1447
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Not sure what you mean by that. Say I have to roll out a new software in 1000 machines, and configure it. How does one go about doing it in fully Mac environment? Why is this a windows specific problem? ...
Unix derivatives don't have a Registry to bother with, unlike Windows. Installation is as simple as dropping it in the appropriate directory, for the application to work. The 'registry' fragment of that app (info.plist) is in the same directory as the executable. The OS just looks for the pre-packaged icon corresponding to the app to display in the GUI. All the applications are expected to be in the Applications folder, so that the GUI can present them together. That means applications can be packaged in a preconfigured form for installation.

In Windows, there is no uniformity or mandatory pre-requisite to keep it simple for the user.

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... What is the problem they created? ... Not sure how NT created a problem.
Misunderstood. NT didn't create the problem - it tried to provide the solution.

Please do analyze it. The whole Machine Management problem is because of the Registry based operation of Windows. Even if one wants to install a ghost image, one has to do the installation once at least - so that the Registry has the right entries to ensure that the OS and the applications can interact "efficiently". It is not as simple as creating a directory and dumping the binaries to install an application, or removing a directory to uninstall an app. One cannot just create the Registry as a file and drop it into a machine.

Anyone who knows the history of malware will recognize how Registry was expoited. Anyone who has done Sys Admin work will know the hassle of Registry corruption.
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Old 10th June 2014, 17:01   #1448
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Default Re: iBhp - Think Different (team-bhpians on a Mac)

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Please do analyze it. The whole Machine Management problem is because of the Registry based operation of Windows. Even if one wants to install a ghost image, one has to do the installation once at least - so that the Registry has the right entries to ensure that the OS and the applications can interact "efficiently". It is not as simple as creating a directory and dumping the binaries to install an application, or removing a directory to uninstall an app. One cannot just create the Registry as a file and drop it into a machine.
Why is this a problem? Ability to modify the registry remotely has always existed, either using policy files or remote registry service. I have often supplied windows software to be installed on 100s of call center agent PCs, and the IT admins easily take care of it very easily.

You are going in a very different tangent. I said Microsoft gives the tools to manage huge fleets of Windows PCs, whether it is installation or setting group policies at multiple levels. It is their strength, which enterprises love. Does Apple provide similar tools if the company has fleets of Macs? That is question that needs to be answered. I know one can use a combination of Samba/NIS/OpenLDAP to catchup with Microsoft's AD, but it is still a far cry. Does Apple have a native solution?
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Old 10th June 2014, 17:39   #1449
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Default Re: iBhp - Think Different (team-bhpians on a Mac)

Ok so I checked out the Apple website for India and the US to compare prices. At the bottom is the comparison.
1st Row: Price in India (INR)
2nd Row: Price in US (USD)
3rd Row: Price in US (Equivalent INR)
4th Row: Difference in INR

Now this works out to be ranging from roughly 23-46K. However reading this thread, some of you mentioned that it may be actually cheaper to buy in India. Can someone explain?
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Old 10th June 2014, 17:41   #1450
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Why is this a problem? Ability to modify the registry remotely has always existed, ...
You missed the point, perhaps! The ability existed, it was a nightmare to actually try doing it. It caused more catastrophes than practical good in Sys Admin. Ask Sys Admin guys who have burnt their fingers in the 90s and early part of this century. My shoulder is still wet from their tears.

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... You are going in a very different tangent. I said Microsoft gives the tools to manage huge fleets of Windows PCs, whether it is installation or setting group policies at multiple levels. ...
Am I? You are saying the same thing that I said earlier, in a different way, yet not recognizing the synthetic primary problem. The problem is not about 'hugeness' of the installed base, but the fact that remote management was a nightmare in the Windows environment - UNLESS proper tools are given. MS gave tools, otherwise users would have gone to a different environment. So does that make MS a great environment?

Why was workstation, and User Rights, management a non-issue at AT&T or Sun? Or enterprises using Sun or Unix / Linux (with a GUI)? If one talks of strengths of MS, it is truly Marketing and Sales - nothing else.

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... It is their strength, which enterprises love. ...
LOL What enterprises love is vendors who provides solutions to the problems that the vendors themselves gave - whether in IT or manufacturing. No IT manager in a company does anything by themselves. At one time the slogan used to be "You won't lose your job if you buy from IBM". Later on it became "Buy from MS, they will take care of everything, we don't have to do anything".

If you don't believe me, talk to IT Managers in Enterprises, most of whom have a flawed / deficient understanding of IT technology (I am sure with your experience you will be able to see through it in less than 2 minutes). Like EDP / MIS Managers earlier, they still only bother about reports going on time to Management - nothing else. In the world of Enterprise Information Management, the only thing that has changed is the name EDP changed to MIS, which changed to Enterprise IT - in the last 40 years. In many cases MS Marketing $$$s pay for giving Enterprises free stuff (including temp staff to help out in reporting) to keep them pacified and not leave the fold.

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... Does Apple provide similar tools if the company has fleets of Macs? ... Does Apple have a native solution?
AFAIK, Apple didn't target the Enterprise market at all. They had missed the bus initially because of their own internal stupidity - too many engineering and management geeks doing nothing, achieving nothing. The prudent strategy they adopted later was to target the home & education market (as Jobs targeted originally), and wherever they had excellent software for professionals - photography, video, etc.

Is Apple not applicable in the Enterprise market, because they don't have Enterprise workstation management tools? Only a dyed-in-the-wool MS tech person will say that (not you, but the average Sys Admin joe). Of course they are - and many people who know what they are doing are forcing Enterprise IT guys to allow BYOD - which is 90% Apple. The focus so far was on Linux so far, which really didn't pan out the way people were expecting.
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Old 10th June 2014, 20:31   #1451
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Not sure what you mean by that. Say I have to roll out a new software in 1000 machines, and configure it. How does one go about doing it in fully Mac environment? Why is this a windows specific problem?

*SNIP*
Simple - package the configured installable application into a DMG (Disk Image) file, which the user would download from the intranet and open and drag into the Applications folder.

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Originally Posted by Live To Jive View Post
I am aware of that, but that's not the idea of buying a Mac.
Oh, the only reason I suggested that was so that your friend can have great hardware and a great OS, that's all.

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It's not about hating Mac. It's more about moving away from Windows and Mac & Linux are the alternatives. I have chosen Linux as that is what I can afford.
That's perfectly OK. I play around with various distros too in VMs on my Mac. Was a Linux user before I switched to Mac.

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That is what he is looking for.
Good. Now he has to decide if it is affordable for him. If not, there are great non-Apple hardware that are really nice and can run Linux flavours very well.

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Originally Posted by Live To Jive View Post
Which brings me to the next question:
Most people migrate from Windows to Mac and most of their problems are associated with getting used to the new OS since they are brought up with Windows. In the case of my friend he's already very comfortable with Linux. Will it be easier for him to adapt to Mac? After all Mac & Linux are both based on Unix, so they should have some similarities.
Being comfortable with Linux/Unix will not automatically make one comfortable with Mac OS X. Though the underpinnings are *nix, the UI (Window Managers, Desktop Environments) are quite different between Mac OS X and Linux distros. If your friend is adept with the CLI, he will be comfortable with the CLI areas of Mac OS X, but the UI portions are quite different, as is the keyboard and trackpad.

That said, for someone who is familiar with computers in general, and who has been a Linux user for a while, it should not take him long at all to become comfortable with Macs, or to understand and work with the differences between the two.

Please also note that some of the software that your friend is used to may or may not be available on the Mac, or if they are available, they might work slightly differently from what he is used to.

Good luck.

Cheers
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Old 11th June 2014, 10:06   #1452
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Default Re: iBhp - Think Different (team-bhpians on a Mac)

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You missed the point, perhaps!
I haven't missed the point, how could I, considering I started the topic.

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
The ability existed, it was a nightmare to actually try doing it. It caused more catastrophes than practical good in Sys Admin. Ask Sys Admin guys who have burnt their fingers in the 90s and early part of this century. My shoulder is still wet from their tears.
Stories of the 90s don't matter anymore, those were days of the infancy of networked personal computers.

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Am I? You are saying the same thing that I said earlier, in a different way, yet not recognizing the synthetic primary problem. The problem is not about 'hugeness' of the installed base, but the fact that remote management was a nightmare in the Windows environment - UNLESS proper tools are given. MS gave tools, otherwise users would have gone to a different environment. So does that make MS a great environment?
Again, you are talking history. I am talking present. Yes, Windows environment was hell once, MS gave the tools and the enterprises are hooked and trapped as a result. So, what is Apple is doing to rescue them?

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Why was workstation, and User Rights, management a non-issue at AT&T or Sun? Or enterprises using Sun or Unix / Linux (with a GUI)?
We are talking about very different user bases here. People who used Sun sparkstations at AT&T (I was one) or people who used AIX/HP-UX in other enterprises (again, I was one), were power/expert users. Emacs/vi were the only text editors, that kept the entry barrier quite high. Still, user rights were limited since only sysadmins had the root password for all the machines. We couldn't do any real damage even intentionally.

But a typical windows user in the early 90s was mostly a novice. The networking was made possible by third party software like Netware/PC-NFS/Vines. But admins had no control over the PC. Anybody could walk-in and use your PC. One could do real damage unintentionally. This was the wild wild west of computers. And during this time, Mac was no different either, and it was not based on Unix like OS like now.

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LOL What enterprises love is vendors who provides solutions to the problems that the vendors themselves gave - whether in IT or manufacturing. No IT manager in a company does anything by themselves.

If you don't believe me, talk to IT Managers in Enterprises, most of whom have a flawed / deficient understanding of IT technology.
Why are you preaching to the choir? This has always been the status quo, and will not change. At least 80% of the IT will be run by dummies, even in future. So you need to give them dummy-proof tools, like MS gives now.

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AFAIK, Apple didn't target the Enterprise market at all.
Exactly. And they always paid lip-service.

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Is Apple not applicable in the Enterprise market, because they don't have Enterprise workstation management tools? Only a dyed-in-the-wool MS tech person will say that (not you, but the average Sys Admin joe). Of course they are - and many people who know what they are doing are forcing Enterprise IT guys to allow BYOD - which is 90% Apple.
Finally we are down to the crux of the matter. When will BYOD succeed? Will it succeed if Apple remains indifferent like they did with Mac & Enterprise? One can't clap with one hand. BYOD will succeed only if Apple makes it possible for security/encryption/user-rights management to happen seamlessly. Right now it is the same wild west we saw with the PC in the early 90s. Then it was MS with most devices, now it is Apple with most devices. It is time Apple stepped up to the crease and deliver.

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Simple - package the configured installable application into a DMG (Disk Image) file, which the user would download from the intranet and open and drag into the Applications folder.
Hmm, we are taking about installation without user intervention, like remote installation to 1000s of machines overnight.
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Old 11th June 2014, 12:55   #1453
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... Stories of the 90s don't matter anymore, those were days of the infancy of networked personal computers. ...
Is it any different today? Scale (number of workstations) for management only affects the time taken for doing so - then, and even now!

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
... Again, you are talking history. I am talking present. Yes, Windows environment was hell once, MS gave the tools and the enterprises are hooked and trapped as a result. So, what is Apple is doing to rescue them? ...
Does Apple have to do anything? IMHO it doesn't - nothing new needs to be done.

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... But a typical windows user in the early 90s was mostly a novice. ... This was the wild wild west of computers. And during this time, Mac was no different either, and it was not based on Unix like OS like now. ...
You couldn't do that on / to a Mac. Not then, not now.

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... Why are you preaching to the choir? ...
Sorry, didn't think you as part of the choir. I was talking to you, not the 'choir'.

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... Exactly. And they always paid lip-service. ...
Err ... difficult to understand that expression. How can Apple "always paid lip-service" if they were not targeting that market? They were never in contention till the portable devices - only in the last 6 years or so.

Linux was the main Enterprise workstation contender - for the last 15 years or more. Only Redhat and Suse made significant inroads, tools and all - they figured out how to make money and give good service. 90% of the Govt. IT systems in East Asia is on Linux. Their logic was simple: independence from single vendors due to the mass support base.

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... When will BYOD succeed? Will it succeed if Apple remains indifferent like they did with Mac & Enterprise? ... It is time Apple stepped up to the crease and deliver. ...
BYOD is already operational in large organizations like Cisco etc. And Apple didn't have to give any tools for that. BYOD is catching up in the other enterprises.

There has been a change in the computing paradigm meanwhile - from workstation-centric computing to 'central' computing of Enterprise Information. Call it what you may, as a paradigm it is no different from mainframe (they are still alive and kicking, and matter a lot) and VAX days. LOL Only the User Interface is different, along with the terminology. And Networking.

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... Hmm, we are taking about installation without user intervention, like remote installation to 1000s of machines overnight.
It is never overnight - it is phased. If it is not phased, the sysadmin organization collapses under the weight of the resultant incident management overload. No matter what the OS or tools. The number of machines doesn't matter at all.

What matters (to the sysadmin organization) is what is to be changed, and the repercussions of that on the operating environment. It is no different from the 90's - despite the constant refrain of many that 'history is discardable' and only 'modern' stuff matters. There is nothing revolutionary in the field of IT, everything is evolutionary. Ignorance is bliss for many!!!
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Old 12th June 2014, 20:40   #1454
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Is Apple not applicable in the Enterprise market, because they don't have Enterprise workstation management tools? Only a dyed-in-the-wool MS tech person will say that (not you, but the average Sys Admin joe). Of course they are - and many people who know what they are doing are forcing Enterprise IT guys to allow BYOD - which is 90% Apple. The focus so far was on Linux so far, which really didn't pan out the way people were expecting.
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When will BYOD succeed?
I work for an organization that has the most rigid IT rules i have ever seen. They are paranoid about users downloading and installing software on their own. Even in such a rigid environment, they have implemented BYOD and we have quite a few people with Macs and Iphones integrated into the office network. Going by the number of people i see walking around with Macs and Ipads, I would say BYOD is definitely on the rise.
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Old 12th June 2014, 21:22   #1455
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Hmm, we are taking about installation without user intervention, like remote installation to 1000s of machines overnight.
This upgrade and stuff i feel is most in windows based environment, now with app store integration regular upgrades etc happens even without any intervention. Most often very seamless, one just needs to relaunch the app.

Purely as a user and absolute zero techie perspective?
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