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Old 16th December 2009, 12:08   #46
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Hi AmitK26


You wrote:
If you are so convinced that 24P is what gives film look you can do a little experiment , take a PAL video capture at ( 60 i converted to 60P) and drop alternate frames with no additional processing and play back to check if you are getting flim look.


That's what the cheap video cameras do: they drop alternate frames to give a fake 24p but end up with horrendous "jaggies".
So you agree it is not just the frame rate but what the frame contains to give you film look,

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You wrote:
Video Encoding standards utilize this property to encode videos and that is why you might have noticed bit rate is not constant in encoded video ( H.263 for example)


That is again a given, encoding video for display on a tv monitor from film footage (telecine transfers) involves 3:2 pulldown (2:3 actually) accounting for the varying bitrate.
No .. No , Video encoding is not that , The fundamental of Video Encoding is that It just encodes the motion vector in each i Frame and a Complete P Frame is sent at a predefined or forced interval.

So if there is no motion in the frame the bit rate drops.
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Old 16th December 2009, 15:28   #47
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So you agree it is not just the frame rate but what the frame contains to give you film look,...

No .. No , Video encoding is not that , The fundamental of Video Encoding is that It just encodes the motion vector in each i Frame and a Complete P Frame is sent at a predefined or forced interval.

So if there is no motion in the frame the bit rate drops.
Totally agree on first point, maybe we have been talking past each other or not being clear in how we state our view!

As for the second point, it is a bit off topic: we can discuss that, but in this thread we only want to know why shooting 24fps native is advantageous. If you feel it has bearing on the discussion, please start another thread, I will gladly participate. The discussions are so good and so fruitful, we always come to some good understanding of the problem and the solution, which is not always the case, as you can see in the blu_ray forum!

Related to this is the fact that we have such great brains in India: we are able to wrap our minds around quite complicated ideas. I was so proud reading about the Nobel Laureate nominations and winners from India.

Now to work towards giving them the right environment to work in (like Samurai Sir and others are gearing up towards!), and we'll be world beaters soon!
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Old 16th December 2009, 16:21   #48
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As for the second point, it is a bit off topic: we can discuss that, but in this thread we only want to know why shooting 24fps native is advantageous. If you feel it has bearing on the discussion, please start another thread, I will gladly participate.
Video encoding came in to picture becuase I was trying to explain earlier that jitter is not just dependent on the FPS and as an example how this property is utilized by video encoders.

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Related to this is the fact that we have such great brains in India: we are able to wrap our minds around quite complicated ideas. I was so proud reading about the Nobel Laureate nominations and winners from India.
nothing so great or complicated here worth a Nobel, Actually we have quite good population of people who work on MM chipsets , codecs and Consumer electronics in general.
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Old 16th December 2009, 16:24   #49
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Does anyone have a good video taken from a 500D?
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Old 16th December 2009, 20:34   #50
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Does anyone have a good video taken from a 500D?
Why? If you' re buying for home video, don't!

Quote
. Focus problems - In video mode, when you press the focus button, it will make the video over-exposed during the focus duration. (This is because the contrast based detection needs more light to focus.)

. No actions - Focus speed is very slow compared to a cheap camcorder. Parents can't capture their young kid running around.

. No outdoors video - There's no wind filter, which means the wind sound will be a problem in your video.

. No music recital - No external port for microphone. So you have high quality graphics to go with mediocre sound.

. No artistic video - Can't set aperture/shutter/ISO. So you can't get that cimema-like shallow depth of field with your larger aperture lenses (unless the camera happens to use it wide open).

. No smooth zoom - Can't zoom smoothly like a cheap consumer camcorder. Well, this is an inherent problem with all DSLR, not just Canon.

500D Video Useless? [Page 1]: Canon EOS 1000D / 500D - 300D Forum: Digital Photography Review

And if you want pro video, all the pros are selling their REDs and Sonys and buying m43s:

Quote
It looked good enough that I dared accept doing a commercial with it after the client had seen my small shorts and loved how they look. I explained that it's a small high-end consumer camera that's not really meant for pro jobs and the comment was "Well unlike those other guys we've worked with you can make a film-like look - their stuff looks like a news clip" (the 'guys' they refer to use traditional video cameras).

7D or GH1.... ? - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

Quote
For commissioned work I have started taking along m4/3 cameras in addition to a Canon 5D Mk II outfit. My company is already shooting video on two GH1's and clients don't have any problem with that. Whether they would accept us turning up with a GF1 or an E-P1 for stills photography is another matter. However since we can "establish our credentials" with the Canon, whatever we use after that is basically left to us.

Pro goes m4/3 [Page 1]: Micro Four Thirds Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Last edited by proton : 16th December 2009 at 20:36. Reason: tidied up
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Old 18th December 2009, 16:21   #51
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I am sorry but can we please stop comparing RED/Sony to M43 for the love of god. One cannot compare a MODULAR system to M43.

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Old 18th December 2009, 19:10   #52
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I am sorry but can we please stop comparing RED/Sony to M43 for the love of god. One cannot compare a MODULAR system to M43.

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Hi IT, I thought that there’s no such thing as "pro" and "non-pro", but only "right tool for the right job"?

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I know for a fact that GH1s are currently being used on a couple big projects with name talent. It's not just me saying this camera is impressive and then some, serious professional have been sitting up and taking notice. I just purchased a 3rd GH1 body, and have all of them working this week. Myself and other professionals would not do this if the GH1 was crap.

Rebel Café :: View topic - Illya Friedman talks GH1

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Yeah, the Red "phenomenon." I am amazed that this weirdest of all companies is still in business -- well, sort of. They demoed their sensor in NYC something like five years ago, before they even had the camera to go with it. I did not like it then, and everything I saw shot w. the Red One, I still don't like much. The result is just too much like video, and who really needs 4K resolution these days, anyhow? HDTV is only in like half a dozen countries of the world, the rest of them still rely on SDTV. So, 4K rez is a definite overkill. We will probably jump from 2K to 8K next, but that is probably a decade away yet.

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Old 18th December 2009, 20:16   #53
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I never said PRO/NON-PRO, i said MODULAR. There is a huge difference. Yes there is the right tool for the job, so stop comparing Red and alike to m43 because they are entirely different categories and entirely different tools.

There is so much crap on the net and frankly i don't mind it. Problem is when beginner photographers read "Ken rock well" and alike and get wrong advice.

Comparing RED and alike to M43 is like comparing F1 car to Maruti 800. Yes both can take you from place A to B and F1 will need more care both while driving and maintaining but its meant for a keeping you safe even crashing at 300+ miles per hour. You cannot expect Maruti 800 to keep you safe to 65 miles per hour.

Similarly Red shoots in RAW format. Just like a DSLR you get RAW video and you can tweak everything with it that you can tweak with a RAW Still. And not to mention the accessories and options available for the shooter. Combinations for a modular system like RED are simply endless.

Touch Focus, RAW video, uncompressed audio, Audio sync, Video sync, External clock sync, Quad sync, high dynamic range (higher than any m43 counterpart), 4 channel Audio, Highest compatibility for lenses, simultaneous tethered+untethered shooting.

These are just the few options available on a RED that is not available in m43 and never will be. I am not sure what these supposed professionals are smoking. I personally will not risk using a DSLR without dual CF cards just for the sake of redundancy and these so called pros are relying on an SD card with m43 with zero redundancy, you just cannot do that when you are spending $50000 on organizing a shoot. Video shoots, i have seen/helped at have dual HDD's recording on the camera, with at least dual external recordings happening while all the data is streamed on multiple displays for the management to see.

I would love to meet these pros in person. Simply because i haven't seen/heard/met a single pro who bothers to shoot without redundancy.

Sorry if i was rude but truth is far from what is being portrayed on the net and in on-line forums. Most of these on-line photographers/bloggers haven't used a RED in there lifetime and they hate it to the guts while the truth is, RED is simply an addiction, once you shoot with RED and get the right combination for your style, there is nothing out there that even matches it.

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Old 18th December 2009, 22:53   #54
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Originally Posted by it_inspector View Post
I never said PRO/NON-PRO, i said MODULAR. There is a huge difference. Yes there is the right tool for the job, so stop comparing Red and alike to m43 because they are entirely different categories and entirely different tools.

There is so much crap on the net and frankly i don't mind it. Problem is when beginner photographers read "Ken rock well" and alike and get wrong advice.

Comparing RED and alike to M43 is like comparing F1 car to Maruti 800. Yes both can take you from place A to B and F1 will need more care both while driving and maintaining but its meant for a keeping you safe even crashing at 300+ miles per hour. You cannot expect Maruti 800 to keep you safe to 65 miles per hour.

Similarly Red shoots in RAW format. Just like a DSLR you get RAW video and you can tweak everything with it that you can tweak with a RAW Still. And not to mention the accessories and options available for the shooter. Combinations for a modular system like RED are simply endless.

Touch Focus, RAW video, uncompressed audio, Audio sync, Video sync, External clock sync, Quad sync, high dynamic range (higher than any m43 counterpart), 4 channel Audio, Highest compatibility for lenses, simultaneous tethered+untethered shooting.

These are just the few options available on a RED that is not available in m43 and never will be. I am not sure what these supposed professionals are smoking. I personally will not risk using a DSLR without dual CF cards just for the sake of redundancy and these so called pros are relying on an SD card with m43 with zero redundancy, you just cannot do that when you are spending $50000 on organizing a shoot. Video shoots, i have seen/helped at have dual HDD's recording on the camera, with at least dual external recordings happening while all the data is streamed on multiple displays for the management to see.

I would love to meet these pros in person. Simply because i haven't seen/heard/met a single pro who bothers to shoot without redundancy.

Sorry if i was rude but truth is far from what is being portrayed on the net and in on-line forums. Most of these on-line photographers/bloggers haven't used a RED in there lifetime and they hate it to the guts while the truth is, RED is simply an addiction, once you shoot with RED and get the right combination for your style, there is nothing out there that even matches it.

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Hi IT, I agree! Just funnin' you and rattling your cage! But at least we got a clarification that one of the attributes of "pro" equipment is redundancy!
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Old 19th December 2009, 08:08   #55
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Hi IT, I agree! Just funnin' you and rattling your cage! But at least we got a clarification that one of the attributes of "pro" equipment is redundancy!
I am not rattled but more like annoyed. Reason being, i remember when i was a beginner photographer and got so much wrong info and that too, at the most crucial time. I agree 100% that Internet is full of information but most of it is just absolutely BS. Its upto the user to interpret this BS and get the meaning.

For exmaple, Kenrockwell, he argues with 50% of the things he said/wrote himself. Following are some of his comments:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenrockwell
If a camera lacks direct dedicated input buttons for White Balance, ISO or Quality, I pass. Would you drive a car that required a menu or function selector knob to steer if you could get one with a real dedicated steering wheel instead? Of course not. I adjust WB for almost every shot, so I demand direct access.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenrockwell
I prefer my D40 over my D70 and the D50. I grab my D40 instead of grabbing my D70 every time. Heck, The D40 is so much fun and so light I rarely grab my D80 or D200 either, unless I'm doing something really serious. I'd suggest getting a D40.
So he will not review A100 because it doesn't have direct access to ISO/WB and FileSize but his favourite camera is D40 which has none of those too. And he recommends D40 for 99% of the users. And if you look at his video, he wants Canon/Nikon to learn from Apple and implements features with 1 button.

So what does that mean????

Some more from Kenrockwell's site

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenrockwell
I have the playful, immature and creative, trouble-making mind of a seven-year-old, so read accordingly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenrockwell
This site is purely my personal speech and opinion, and a way for me to goof around. Don't take any of this as true; I like to make things up as much as any other kid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenrockwell
I like to make things up and stretch the truth if they make an article more fun. In the case of new products, rumors and just plain silly stuff, it's all pretend. If you lack a good BS detector or sense of humor, please treat this entire site as the work of fiction that it is. it is the product of my own imagination.
I am not saying Kenrockwell is a bad person or he's an idiot. Actually i like his articles on "how to use UWA lenses" and these are quite true to some extent.

My point is he uses marketing technique to attract readers to make money, doesn't matter what is the truth as long as gets high number of visitors and make more money. And this is one of the problems, a person who's been using DSLR's for some time will just reject his comments and will read what information that person requires. But as they say, "young minds will be corrupted...", a beginner will be fed wrong info.

On the topic of Video. Well i can shoot with Canon A80/Gh1/5Dmk2/Red/Sony FX7 in the studio with all the lights and still subject and then process and deliver all the content at VGA resolution since that is the minimum of all. How will the video turn out. Of course it will be quite hard to notice the difference between the videos but does that mean Canon A80 beats all of them hands down ????

If no then how can we compare GH1/5Dmk2 to Red???
If yes then why do we even spend money on GH1/5Dmk2, lets buy a 7-8yr old PnS and shoot video with it.

I feel i have gone to the extremes to make my point, if it is still not clear then there is no way possible for me to do prove it.

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Old 21st December 2009, 18:28   #56
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This post should have been on this thread.
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I just got a Canon Kiss X3 (500D) with kit lens plus 55 - 250 IS lens from Japan 2 days back. The immediate difference from the 1000D that I can notice is the MUCH brighter and larger LCD and the bigger size and weight. Movie mode is a plus too.

I have a small problem: The videos that I took play smoothly and properly on the LCD but does not play at all or plays only the sound and the first frame on the computer.

I copied (from windows browser) all the photos and videos and pasted it on the local disk yesterday night. Is there some other way that I should have transferred it? Please advice.
The video plays properly now. Dont know what the issue was but it seems fixed now. Video quality is very good, audio has some noise (to be expected). Very happy that I had the IS lens. I think a non IS tele lens would make for very jittery video.
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Old 22nd December 2009, 05:29   #57
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This post should have been on this thread.


The video plays properly now. Dont know what the issue was but it seems fixed now. Video quality is very good, audio has some noise (to be expected). Very happy that I had the IS lens. I think a non IS tele lens would make for very jittery video.
I cannot think of any reason it shouldn't play. Quicktime should be able to play it fine or Media Player Classic is a worthy opponent to quicktime.

Cheers
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Old 23rd December 2009, 16:19   #58
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A couple of HD videos Shot with my camera, wanted to share them with you guys...if its not the ideal thread for this, mods please move it to a fitting thread.


Regards,
TG.
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Old 23rd December 2009, 18:52   #59
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Awesome videos TG. The foreground and background blur, focussing only on the duck is superb! I'll try it out sometime.
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Old 23rd December 2009, 19:35   #60
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@proxima
Thanks, I am just getting used to it as well...but really loving the time i spend with it!
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