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Old 16th June 2015, 10:56   #2371
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Default Re: Want to build a dedicated home theater, suggestions please.

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Originally Posted by dre@ms View Post
From where did you source this? I am looking for Dolby demo discs to check my Yamaha 5.1. And, where do you play these discs? The Amplifier or Blue ray player connected to Amplifier?

I tried downloading some over Dolby site and the format was not playable by my Amplifier through USB Later, tried connecting it to my TV, but hardly differentiated the effects.
I live in South Africa and those are available here .... actually the Transformers is freely available and the Atmos demo is is actually available to Hi-fi dealers but my friend with the Marantz AVR managed to get some to demo his system and i got one from him

i know a few people who tried to download them but if its not the full 5+ gb version then it wont play the proper Atmos effects - and basically you have to set your source to bitstream to play these so that they play the dolby TrueHD soundtrack if you do not have an Atmos capable AVR

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Originally Posted by navin View Post
What is 7.1.4 anyway? I thought 7 was the number of fullrange/surround channels and .x was the number of subwoofers so if one had 2 fronts, 4 rears, a center and 4 subwoofers it would be 7.4
Navin ..... the Atmos naming convention works as described below (actually all object oriented formats work like this .... which includes DTS:X, which is the newest upcoming DTS version )

first you have the number of normal ear level surround speakers you use then the second number is the number of subwoofers then the third number is the number of ceiling speakers

so the number of speakers is now going to look like 7.1.4 OR 5.1.2 OR 7.1.2 ..... so to have the full 7.1.4 or 7.2.4 you need the front mains plus center channel and then rears as well as rear surrounds and then the ceiling speakers have a number of possibilities as shown in this diagram (my friend is using top front and top rear ceiling speakers)

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in the diagram above ..... the last letters R and L are obviously left and right

FH = Front Height - used more for Dolby pro-logix IIz but can be used for Atmos and DTS:X
TF = Top front
TM = Top middle
TR = Top rear
RH = Rear Height

In the Marantz AVR there is also Auro 3D which has 5 ear level speakers - then theres a height level of 5 speakers - just above each surround speaker and this would be around a metre higher than each speaker while theses a single ceiling speaker which is referred to as a "Voice of God" speaker (as objectionable as this may be to some this is actually what it is being called for Auro 3D)

potential positions of Auro 3d are as follows

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monopoles are favoured by stereo buffs but for movie fanatics who are into great sound the multi-pole designs actually can diffuse the sound if you know how to place them properly and as you rightly suggest use them in the requisite size of room

while i am missing the ceiling speakers for the moment, my speakers create a realistically diffuse surround effect and even projects a psuedo height layer because you will have top to bottom imaging between speakers now, so the lower layers project some height upward while the ceiling speakers are going to project the height downward which is what will give you the full height effects

again my placement has had months of experimentation and speakers being placed in different locations till i achieved the effects that work best in my own room .... if you were closer to my country i would have invited you over for a demo ..... nevertheless the offer still stands and if you ever find yourself in Durban, South Africa then let me know and you can pop in for a visit

Last edited by naughty001 : 16th June 2015 at 11:05. Reason: correcting spelling errors
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Old 16th June 2015, 11:20   #2372
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Default re: The Home Theater thread

Sorry to add a post directly after my own but I also realized that in my reply above to dre@ams I forgot to mention that HD audio formats like Dolby TrueHD and also DTS-HD(ma) are only going to be transmitted by HDMI cable (because of HDCP which is high definition content protection) so they probably wont work from the TV unless maybe your AVR is utilising ARC (audio return channel) over HDMI to give you the audio via the AVR

And playing it from a flash drive on the PC to the AVR, you need the PC connected via HDMI and your sound drivers configured to play the HD audio codecs as well (proper HD audio will not work over optical and coax but only over HDMI).

As I mentioned above your source whether it be blu-ray player or PC based needs to be set to bitstream i.e. HDMI passthrough for the HD audio to be decoded by the AVR as well, so this needs to be the first thing you check. Lastly Atmos downmixes to Dolby TrueHD if you do not have an Atmos capable AVR in the same way that the HD audio codecs downmix to the core codec if you do not transmit them via HDMI to the AVR i.e. Dolby TrueHD will play as AC3 (which is dolby digital) while DTS-HD(ma) will play as DTS core (which is just regular DTS).

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 16th June 2015 at 15:10. Reason: Post edited. Punctuation + capitalisation + removing unwanted dots. Please proof read hereafter before submission. Thanks!
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Old 16th June 2015, 11:29   #2373
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Default re: The Home Theater thread

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Originally Posted by naughty001 View Post
unless maybe your AVR is utilising ARC (audio return channel) over HDMI to give you the audio via the AVR
Are there any mid budget tv's out there that support multi channel HD audio content via arc-hdmi?

I know for sure that the first model (2013) in LG's 55" 3D Cinema Range did not support DTS. If you plugged in multi channel dts content over the TV's usb port, the feed isn't even supported via arc-hdmi.
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Old 16th June 2015, 11:39   #2374
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Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
Are there any mid budget tv's out there that support multi channel HD audio content via arc-hdmi?

I know for sure that the first model (2013) in LG's 55" 3D Cinema Range did not support DTS. If you plugged in multi channel dts content over the TV's usb port, the feed isn't even supported via arc-hdmi.
I am not 100% sure of this. I was just speculating that it might work but I have also realized that the ARC might not be able to bitstream and probably wants to do the decoding and hence output the audio stream as PCM only.

Possibly only higher end TV's will do this too, and the HD audio is still going to downmix to the core formats anyway so even if it does transmit the core surround formats it might not work for HD audio.

So it remains as. Only HDMI is going to transmit the HD audio codecs while any other method of transmission is not going to work, so in order to hear psuedo Atmos effects you still need the HD audio codec working ie Dolby TrueHD as well as proper speaker placement that allows it and for proper Atmos you need the ceiling speakers or ceiling reflecting speakers placed on your current speaker set as well as an Atmos enabled AVR.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 16th June 2015 at 14:47. Reason: Post edited. Please do not type..... like.... this..... Thank you!
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Old 16th June 2015, 12:37   #2375
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Default re: The Home Theater thread

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Originally Posted by sj_koova View Post
The pace at which video quality improves, 1080p will be outdated in matter of 2 years right?

BTW, I may settle down with a flat panel for now. Projector will come only after I can relax my hands a bit.

My plan to spend on one at a time, but buy the best.
I dont think it will mature in near future as 1080p esp in movies. I wont suggest you invest in a TV for movies and wait for 4K to mature, even a basic FHD projector will give you a far better experience, no doubt about that.

Since you are planning for ATMOS, as I had mentioned before, invest atleast in 4 atmos channels to get a proper height \ isolation from surrounds and more important, use either in-ceiling speakers or monopoles for atmos, it doesnt work with the principle of diffusion, you also need to have proper acoustics atleast for the first reflection points. If the ceiling height is less than 9 ft then you need atmos enabled speakers like atlantic elevation speakers or by monopoles fixed to the walls firing at a particular angle to the ceiling. For the other surrounds, you can choose any bipolar speakers (not dipolar, since its a small room).

Last edited by ::CMS:: : 16th June 2015 at 12:47.
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Old 16th June 2015, 13:18   #2376
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Default re: The Home Theater thread

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it doesnt work with the principle of diffusion
In my experience this is a myth propogated by people who do not have diffusive speakers or who have not tried them. As I have said before it works absolutely perfectly and better than 99,99% of other systems that I have heard for proper surround sound.

Dolby do not recommend it and their diagrams also show monopole speakers BUT nowhere have THEY specifically said that it wont work and if they did, it is probably more about politics against THX who do recommend them.

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invest atleast in 4 atmos channels to get a proper height \ isolation from surrounds and more important
While I agree about the 4 channels of height speakers it is definitely not isolation you want. It is an interaction. If you really want isolation then you definitely do not understand the concept of "soundstaging" nor "imaging" in any form or way.

If you do understand those then you realise that diffusion enhances those effects in a huge way.

Anyway I'm not going to argue and bicker over it - all I can say is that I acheive results that makes my system better than most systems that cost even up to 20 times more because most people cannot understand how i get such excellent surround results - and the secret is in the diffusion and speaker placement.

Try it instead of knocking it is all I can suggest. It works beyond all my expectations and I have tried and experimented with many system configurations over the last 20 years, having changed my complete speaker sets more than 7 or 8 times in that period right now what I have though are going to be keepers until I add the height speakers because with what I have now and IMHO if I add the height speakers then my system will be more effective than most other high end setups using monopole speakers that i have listened to and in a big way I might add since its going to make many people red in the face until they do go and buy multi-pole speakers be they dipole or bipole

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 16th June 2015 at 14:49. Reason: Post edited. Please do not type..... like.... this..... Thank you!
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Old 16th June 2015, 14:03   #2377
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Originally Posted by naughty001 View Post
in my experience this is a myth propogated by people who do not have diffusive speakers or who have not tried them ..... as i have said before it works absolutely perfectly and better than 99,99% of other systems that i have heard for proper surround sound

Dolby do not recommend it and their diagrams also show monopole speakers BUT nowhere have THEY specifically said that it wont work ..... and if they did, it is probably more about politics against THX who do recommend them

while i agree about the 4 channels of height speakers it is definitely not isolation you want ..... it is an interaction ..... if you really want isolation then you definitely do not understand the concept of "soundstaging" nor "imaging" in any form or way

if you do understand those then you realise that diffusion enhances those effects in a huge way

anyway im not going to argue and bicker over it - all i can say is that i acheive results that makes my system better than most systems that cost even up to 20 times more because most people cannot understand how i get such excellent surround results - and the secret is in the diffusion and speaker placement

try it instead of knocking it is all i can suggest .... it works beyond all my expectations and i have tried and experimented with many system configurations over the last 20 years, having changed my complete speaker sets more than 7 or 8 times in that period ..... right now what i have though are going to be keepers until i add the height speakers because with what i have now and IMHO if i add the height speakers then my system will be more effective than most other high end setups using monopole speakers that i have listened to ..... and in a big way i might add since its going to make many people red in the face until they do go and buy multi-pole speakers be they dipole or bipole
I am not questioning how your setup works nor "your understanding of imaging" as I am quite surprised that you get refinement than many other expensive setups, but ONLY with flat reflecting surfaces in your room and I dont see any kind of sound treatments, not even a single bass trap, so be it.

You seem to be having more understanding than the DOLBY engineers themselves, as they had clearly mentioned in their installation documents and the patent files that these channels are separate and isolated than the existing traditional surrounds and they recommend direct radiating speakers. So as per your "Imaging Technology", DOLBY needs to rethink on their own understanding of ATMOS.

If it is integrated to the exiting surrounds, you wont be able to interpret what is at the top and around (both are different), Sorry, I would like to believe DOLBY engineers for details on ATMOS than a layman.

Sir, Extract from DOLBY's patent document:

Quote:
" In a typical commercial or professional implementation speakers in the height plane are usually provided as ceiling mounted speakers or speakers mounted high on a wall above the audience, such as often seen in a cinema. These speakers provide height cues for signals that are intended to be heard above the listener by directly transmitting sound waves down to the audience from overhead locations."
Quote:
and the speakers use the specific information regarding which audio objects should be rendered above the standard horizontal plane to direct the audio signals accordingly.
Moreover, FYI, in a traditional setup, people who doesnt know about how a surround works tend to use the bipolars / dipolars without using any kind of diffusers, its always recommended to use a proper diffuser, like QRD or something based on the room, along with any bipolar / a dipolar speaker, else you will get a diffused sound, but not the intended diffusion.

Last edited by ::CMS:: : 16th June 2015 at 14:31.
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Old 16th June 2015, 14:28   #2378
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If it is integrated to the exiting surrounds, you wont be able to interpret what is at the top and around (both are different)

Sir, Extract from DOLBY's patent document:
Dolby are talking specifically about the ceiling speakers in your quoted document. Diffusive speakers are not used as height speakers but they are used as the surround speakers. In this instance diffusion makes sense, this is where you use the bipoles and dipoles etc, and most people do not understand why this should be so

But they are talking about the overhead speakers. The words "above" and "directly overhead" in your own quotations should give you a clue

As for the bass traps - you dont always need them. I have installed them at many other systems and I really have no need for them. Again you are too far away and you cannot come and listen to my system and im definitely not paying for an airplane ticket for you to do so BUT if you could hear the results then you would be able to make out for yourself

BTW room treatments are a tool where they are required. You should not, and cannot just install them willy-nilly because you think they should be there ie if the location of the actual negates the need for them to be required then do not install them

I had need for room treatments I would have done them accordingly and I can pretty easily identify when they are needed depending on room interaction in what I "hear" instead of wanting to do what I read somewhere or wanting to do something for sake of doing it

Where my speakers are (the rears and rear surrounds are pretty nearfield hence why i dont get too many reflections that need taming, so no treatment required there at all

As i said i dont want to get into an argument. Sso each to his own but i do suggest you read your own documentation clearly and differentiate between overhead effects and the surround effects lower down the initial query was regarding surround speakers if i recall correctly and not overhead or overhead radiating speakers

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Moreover, FYI, in a traditional setup, people who doesnt know about how a surround works tend to use the bipolars / dipolars without using any kind of diffusers, its always recommended to use a proper diffuser, like QRD or something based on the room, along with any bipolar / a dipolar speaker, else you will get a diffused sound, but not the intended diffusion.
That is not correct sir. You have read something wrong about diffusion somewhere along the line - the diffusion with diffusors you are talking about is only if reflections are a problem. There are times when diffusers and absorbers are definitely not needed ie if reflections are not a problem - and they will tend to become a problem if the room is largish but if the side walls are either very close or more than around 2 metres away the reflected sounds energy disiapates making it virtually inaudible

Either way your understanding of how dipoles and bipoles is IMHO very limited because you obviously have not used them

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 16th June 2015 at 15:04. Reason: Post edited. Punctuation + capitalisation + removing unwanted dots. Please proof read hereafter before submission. Thanks!
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Old 16th June 2015, 14:33   #2379
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Dolby are talking specifically about the ceiling speakers in your quoted document .... so each to his own but i do suggest you read your own documentation clearly and differentiate between overhead effects and the surround effects lower down the initial query was regarding surround speakers if i recall correctly and not overhead or overhead radiating speakers
Sorry sir, DUMBFOUNDED!!!

Last edited by navin : 16th June 2015 at 14:46. Reason: No need to quote entire post
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Old 16th June 2015, 14:39   #2380
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This where im leaving it as it is. You do it your way and i will do it mine, since my way works and sounds more than good enough for me and why spend money on something thats not needed.

Trust me you wont be able to improve on the results im getting in my room in any form or way even if you tried as hard as you could

But no more from me on the subject - im silent now

Last edited by navin : 16th June 2015 at 15:03. Reason: dotty post.
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Old 16th June 2015, 14:39   #2381
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the initial query was regarding surround speakers if i recall correctly and not overhead or overhead radiating speakers
Please read my post again, I clearly mentioned atmos for the overhead and surrounds for other surrounds, hope you dont have any issue in reading it.

Quote:
That is not correct sir. You have read something wrong about diffusion somewhere along the line - the diffusion with diffusors you are talking about is only if reflections are a problem. There are times when diffusers and absorbers are definitely not needed i.e. if reflections are not a problem - and they will tend to become a problem if the room is largish but if the side walls are either very close or more than around 2 metres away the reflected sounds energy disiapates making it virtually inaudible.

Either way your understanding of how dipoles and bipoles is IMHO very limited because you obviously have not used them.
Again, you made those diffusers obsolete, not required.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 16th June 2015 at 15:07.
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Old 16th June 2015, 15:18   #2382
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Default re: The Home Theater thread

Naughty/CMS,

It seems to me that many who have experience in the "2 channel world" prefer monopoles (more so if the rooms are large enough). This is just a generic observation.

When it comes to bass traps. Again with 10-15 speakers in a room the availability of space for bass traps becomes limited. With multiple subwoofers the bass peaks and dip are often averaged out and again the need for bass traps is limited (we still need them to control the bass in the 2 channel world).
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Old 16th June 2015, 15:26   #2383
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It seems to me that many who have experience in the "2 channel world" prefer monopoles (more so if the rooms are large enough). This is just a generic observation.
Its not the matter of preference, from their documents, I understand that DOLBY recommends direct radiating speakers for ATMOS either in a commercial or a home environment than a diffusing speaker as the height content is isolated from the horizontal surround.

Quote:
When it comes to bass traps. Again with 10-15 speakers in a room the availability of space for bass traps becomes limited. With multiple subwoofers the bass peaks and dip are often averaged out and again the need for bass traps is limited (we still need them to control the bass in the 2 channel world).
As far as I understand, bass traps has nothing to do with the speakers, its with the room and its modes at different locations, higher at the tri-corners. Its irrelevant unless we are in an anechoic chamber or an open field.

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Old 16th June 2015, 15:29   #2384
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As far as I understand, bass traps has nothing to do with the speakers, its with the room and its modes at different locations, higher at the tri-corners. Its irrelevant unless we are in an anechoic chamber or an open field.
Sir unless you excite these room nodes with speakers that can go low enough to do so the bass traps are not required right?

When you use multiple subwoofers, preferably judiciously the nulls and peaks (created by the nodes) often get averaged out.
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Old 16th June 2015, 15:32   #2385
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Sir unless you excite these room nodes with speakers that can go low enough to do so the bass traps are not required right?

When you use multiple subwoofers, preferably judiciously the nulls and peaks (created by the nodes) often get averaged out.
It can get excited with even a bookshelf speaker, depending on the room dimensions. Please check the room mode calculators, the freqs can be in the range of low-mids too.

A room with 12 by 10 feet and 8 feet high, it can get excited by 47 Hz, 57 Hz, and 71 Hz respectively. Additional level boosts occur at harmonically related multiples: 94, 141, 188 Hz, and so forth for the 12 foot length, and likewise for the two other dimensions.

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