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Old 20th April 2017, 21:05   #1891
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Originally Posted by aim120 View Post
They already surpassed Nikon In US Full Frame market share.
And how do you know that? That they have surpassed Nikon in FF sales? From that Sony press release, which is erroneous, but which I have to admire as a marketing guy?

Suppose Nikon sells 150 over the yr. Jan and Feb are slow months, since the sales promotions have just concluded. Say they sell 15 in those two slow months. Most folks who wanted to buy a Nikon would have already bought before Dec 31st, given the Christmas deals.

Sony - being smart and opprtunistic, unlike the ostrich Nikon - carry out big sales promotions just after Canikon stop theirs. In Jan and Feb, running on B&H etc. Say they sell 20 in those two months. So Sony can theoritcally claim they sold 33% more than Nikon. And extrapolate for the rest of the year.

Rest of the yr, Nikon sells 135. And Sony sells 80.

But Sony comes out with a press release in Apr, saying that they have now overtaken the previous #2, going by 2 months of sales data (read the fine print on Sony's press release).

And sheep across the Internet just go by the headline without looking into the numbers.

That's what happened a few days back.

Nevertheless, Sony marketing is running rings around Nikon's. And perception matters.
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Old 20th April 2017, 22:14   #1892
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Default Re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

They supassed Nikon and canon in the ILC market in South Korea which is a developed country, again where mirrorless sells more then dslr.

In Japan Canikon is still ahead but if you look at market share, canon is up by 0.1% which is unchanged, Nikon drops by 2.5% and sony gains .9% .

This latest camera is the first attempt at trying to get the attention of 1d and D5 customers.

If people around the world didn't have a lot of lenses invested in canikon, no guesses at which direction they will head. Its pretty clear mirrorless is the future and Sony is ahead of that pack.

Last edited by aim120 : 20th April 2017 at 22:16.
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Old 20th April 2017, 23:58   #1893
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They supassed Nikon and canon in the ILC market in South Korea which is a developed country, again where mirrorless sells more then dslr.

In Japan Canikon is still ahead but if you look at market share, canon is up by 0.1% which is unchanged, Nikon drops by 2.5% and sony gains .9% .

This latest camera is the first attempt at trying to get the attention of 1d and D5 customers.

If people around the world didn't have a lot of lenses invested in canikon, no guesses at which direction they will head. Its pretty clear mirrorless is the future and Sony is ahead of that pack.
Nikon has 50% market share in India re ILCs, Canon most of the rest. The dynamics are different in large emerging markets vs smaller developed markets.

Anyway, I was referring to the US market, and Sony's rather clever press release.

I agree that mirrorless is the future. Although I use Nikon, if some other co were to give me a better deal re what I want/need, I wouldn't hesitate in switching. Learning curve would be there, but not a biggie. These are just tools, no point in getting emotionally invested re electronic gear.
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Old 21st April 2017, 01:40   #1894
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Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
A
And sheep across the Internet just go by the headline without looking into the numbers.

That's what happened a few days back.

Nevertheless, Sony marketing is running rings around Nikon's. And perception matters.
See, you have to understand and think from POV finance and Investment.
It is a bit tricky when you don't have that instinct, but the real story to find out is not whether Canikon have lower sails in Jan feb and that is why Sony is ahead, but what was happening in the previous years.

So if 2016 Jan Feb Sales for Sony > Canikon - Then a guy with finance instinct will not bat an eyelid.
However if 2016 Jan Feb Sales for Sony > Canikon, it means that Sony Marketshare has grown.

So a guy with financial instinct/education will go to next step.
Price history. Were discounts offered in 2017 more than those in 2016?

If yes, then that is cause, if not, then it really means that Sony is going to keep gaining market share.

So while the press release was clever, you will find most people in two camps.
1. Internet sheep, who go WOWEEE sony rockerzz
2. Internet not sheep clothing but "sheep" who go "meh" without analysis

The true intelligence likes in using the finance and investment instinct. Very few people have that(I know I don't, so I was not even aware of this press release).
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Old 21st April 2017, 02:20   #1895
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
See, you have to understand and think from POV finance and Investment.
Actually, this is a thread about photography I thought, so itís not about finance and investment itís about taking pictures and to what extend would this bit of kit allow you take better pictures.

For the last couple of decades we have seen a continuous stream of new kit. Do we see a vast improvement of photographs as well. I donít know but I am somehow doubtful.

I think, I have no proof, just feeling/opinion that all these new cameras havenít necessarily made us better photographers. What it did do is enable more of us to take technically correct pictures under more challenging conditions. Iím very comfortable shooting hand held with my em5mkii at 1/4 second. With my previous camera, a Sony DSC R1 it would simply not make sense to handheld at those slow shutter speeds. Question remains, do I take better images, now I have the technical capability to use much lower shutter speeds then before?

Good, powerful images with lots of impact donít have that much to do with the technical capabilities of oneís kit. A mediocre composition is still mediocre no matter what shutter speed your camera is capable of.

So this Sony is capable of incredible fast picture taking at unbelievable shutter speeds. So there will be a whole army of nature photographers who will beating each other to death trying to get ahead in the que to buy one.

But will we see better nature images? i see a lot of nature images, close ups of hovering birds, tigers what have you. But, truth be told, 99 out of 100 are just technically correct, but otherwise just average images.

I have a very simple test; if I see people look at my images for more then five seconds per image, I know I probably have produced something that really stands out from the crowd.

I have spend most of today with a friend of mine who is a professional photographers. I donít like the distinction between professional and amateur as such. But letís put it like this. She is capable through her images to earn a very substantial income.

We worked on my panel of 10 photographs I will be submitting to the Royal Photographic Society for my attempt at my very first distinction. We spend the whole day behind my laptop and printed of 6 images, A3 size. My wife came home late afternoon and I showed her, very proudly, my 6 prints. She cycled through them a few seconds per image. One image she studied intently for 10-15 seconds. Now my wife isnít the best of judges of photographic images, but itís very telling how she told me she really likes all images and one in particular. But the one she really like stood out in terms of how much time she actually spend looking at it. Probably more then the cumulative viewing time of the other five images.

Thatís probably a good indication about it being an unusually strong/powerful/special image. So one day of editing, one potentially good image! Not a bad day! I have had worse. Much worse!

Donít get me wrong, if you enjoy upgrading your kit, because thatís what floats your boat, please do. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. A hobby or interest isnít defined by rules and regulations. Whatever you do to enjoy, please do.

I have been into photography since I was about 12-14 years old. Especially the last, say 5-10 years I have been really trying to improve my photography. Again, that is very subjective admittedly. One thing, it doesnít require much upgrade of kit though.

Anorak fact: For whatever itís worth, some of what I would consider outstanding photographers at the RPS all seem to be using Fuji cameras and lenses. Not a Canon or Nikon in sight!

Jeroen
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Old 21st April 2017, 12:19   #1896
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Default Re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
See, you have to understand and think from POV finance and Investment.
It is a bit tricky when you don't have that instinct, but the real story to find out is not whether Canikon have lower sails in Jan feb and that is why Sony is ahead, but what was happening in the previous years.

So if 2016 Jan Feb Sales for Sony > Canikon - Then a guy with finance instinct will not bat an eyelid.
However if 2016 Jan Feb Sales for Sony > Canikon, it means that Sony Marketshare has grown.

So a guy with financial instinct/education will go to next step.
Price history. Were discounts offered in 2017 more than those in 2016?

If yes, then that is cause, if not, then it really means that Sony is going to keep gaining market share.

So while the press release was clever, you will find most people in two camps.
1. Internet sheep, who go WOWEEE sony rockerzz
2. Internet not sheep clothing but "sheep" who go "meh" without analysis

The true intelligence likes in using the finance and investment instinct. Very few people have that(I know I don't, so I was not even aware of this press release).
OT response:

Are you speaking about yourself or are you making assumptions about backgrounds and instincts of other people?

If someone were to really start analyzing this, and had the data, and the time to dig deep, that person would look at things like:
* Historical sales for each of these players and for the industry - full year, Jan-Feb months, seasonal trends.
* Units sold as well as $$ (talking about FF units since the release was about this).
* Sales promotions running in CY, as well as for previous years, for Jan and Feb. For all big FF players. Impact of those promotions - what is the spike? Any other promotions planned in the same financial year? Expected competitive moves than can impact sales? New launches that can impact sales?
* Forecasts, annual reports, industry reports etc. E.g. I am not sure whether Canikon break up their ILC sales into full frame, crop sensor etc when they report business unit performance. I don't think one would have access to their internal data unless one is an industry insider.

In the end, one is trying to forecast yearly FF sales and then figure out market share trends. This is a pretty basic model to build if one had access to data, and could start digging. Not sure where investment background comes in here, unless one is analyzing the photography industry and planning to put money in any of the stocks (which one shouldn't, the industry is shrinking). Or doing analysis for a potential M&A. If so, many many other things need to be looked at.

Anyway, the point/argument wasn't about whether Sony's marketshare had grown, but whether it was #2 in FF sales, as claimed by that clever release factoring just 2 months of sales.

And fyi, my sheep comment wasn't meant at anyone here, but at folks on various photography websites who are hyperventilating about this release.

Last edited by nilanjanray : 21st April 2017 at 12:43.
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Old 21st April 2017, 12:27   #1897
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
And it becomes extremely challenging to shoot when the kid is autistic and doesn't like to pose. I have very few good shots of my younger son because of this.

Here is both of them.
I know how it is. My Kid is in the spectrum as well and will never pose. My camera is always in High speed mode because of this. He will rarely make an eye contact and I don't want to miss that. He did pose well when he was a baby.

Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras-img_5571-large.jpg

Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras-aarush-basket-ii-large.jpg

These were taken last year with the E-P5 and 40-150mm
Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras-p3270739_zpskpyek6oj.jpg

Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras-p3270768_zps6xpvbhmt.jpg

Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras-p3270680_zps66lphf4f.jpg

Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras-p3270679_zpsvulih1nm.jpg

These were taken with the OMe Em5 MKII with 45mm f1.8 prime

Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras-aarush-omd.jpg
Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras-falls-2.jpg
Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras-falls2.jpg
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Old 21st April 2017, 12:52   #1898
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Originally Posted by aim120 View Post
They supassed Nikon and canon in the ILC market in South Korea which is a developed country, again where mirrorless sells more then dslr.

In Japan Canikon is still ahead but if you look at market share, canon is up by 0.1% which is unchanged, Nikon drops by 2.5% and sony gains .9% .

This latest camera is the first attempt at trying to get the attention of 1d and D5 customers.

If people around the world didn't have a lot of lenses invested in canikon, no guesses at which direction they will head. Its pretty clear mirrorless is the future and Sony is ahead of that pack.
Yes, in a shrinking (photography) market, share of mirrorless is increasing yoy. I read somewhere that mirrorless will be 30% of all ILC sales by end of year.

Sony is currently a frontrunner, but Canon has become a lot more serious about mirrorless. And unless Nikon wants to be another Nokia or Kodak, Nikon better wake up and get into mirrorless big time. So in the future, the DSLR makers might become significant mirrorless playeers, especially if they can crack the mount compatibility issue. E.g. if one can autofocus and meter effectively i.e. without compromise with old/DSLR lenses. I haven't used mirrorles, but I believe AF is somewhat compromised when one uses the current adapters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin_bhp View Post
I know how it is. My Kid is in the spectrum as well and will never pose. My camera is always in High speed mode because of this.
Yes, I know exactly what it is like (my daughter has the same issue). Taking photos of her is like shooting wildlife.

Nice shots.

Last edited by Jaggu : 2nd June 2017 at 21:25. Reason: Back to back posts, please use Multi Quote [Quote +] instead. Thanks.
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Old 21st April 2017, 13:09   #1899
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Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
OT response:

Are you speaking about yourself or are you making assumptions about backgrounds and instincts of other people?
I was just joking at the over analysis of Sony Release.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Actually, this is a thread about photography I thought,
Actually this thread is about gear. Of course gear is photography related, so indirectly this thread is about photography. But directly speaking, for discussing GAS and Gear in General this is the thread!

Last edited by tsk1979 : 21st April 2017 at 13:11.
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Old 21st April 2017, 18:20   #1900
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Actually this thread is about gear. Of course gear is photography related, so indirectly this thread is about photography. But directly speaking, for discussing GAS and Gear in General this is the thread!
IMHO:
1 The DSLR and mirrorless threads need to be merged. ILC. Separate from compact/P&S. India is more of a DSLR market, but mirrorless costs as much if not more than a entry/mid level DSLR, and requires similar levels of technical discussions. Better to have one thread that focuses on higher end gear and GAS. Basically P&S + mobile photography gear, vs more serious gear. Mirrorless is no longer an outlier, but a significant part of serious gear.

2. The non-auto image thread - we need to have more discussions re composition, EXIF, rationale. Photography discussions. Too many mediocre snapshots that don't help anyone. There is always FB and Instagram to share one's random shots.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 01:48   #1901
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Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
IMHO:
1 The DSLR and mirrorless threads need to be merged. ILC. Separate from compact/P&S. India is more of a DSLR market, but mirrorless costs as much if not more than a entry/mid level DSLR, and requires similar levels of technical discussions. Better to have one thread that focuses on higher end gear and GAS. Basically P&S + mobile photography gear, vs more serious gear. Mirrorless is no longer an outlier, but a significant part of serious gear.

2. The non-auto image thread - we need to have more discussions re composition, EXIF, rationale. Photography discussions. Too many mediocre snapshots that don't help anyone. There is always FB and Instagram to share one's random shots.
I think it is best to have separate threads. Otherwise most discussions will be quickly overrun by "which entry level DSLR should I buy?" I know this is not a photography forum but this thread has visitors with more knowledge in photography than the other thread. Not trying to offend anyone but people come to the thread to get opinion on what to buy and then disappear.

Not that my pics are great but I agree with your 2nd point about the Non-auto image thread. Same with the Auto image thread as well.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 14:46   #1902
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I think it is best to have separate threads. Otherwise most discussions will be quickly overrun by "which entry level DSLR should I buy?"
That is exactly why I separated this thread from dSLR thread in 2010.

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Not that my pics are great but I agree with your 2nd point about the Non-auto image thread. Same with the Auto image thread as well.
We attempted moderating image quality at least 10 years ago. Didn't end well. People thought their pics were good enough for showcasing, and were offended by deletions.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 20:46   #1903
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I need help with some settings on my OM-D EM 5 Mk II. Recently, I have been doing prints with some of the photos that I take. I did some 15 x 15 prints and they turned out to be good, but when I did a 30 x 30, the pictures weren't that great! They sort of looked blurry. Is this a limitation of the micro four thirds sensor or is it some settings that I had wrongly chosen? I believe that my settings weren't proper! Can some of you that own a OM D, let me know what picture settings I should select so that I get a shaper 30 x 30 prints?
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Old 2nd June 2017, 21:03   #1904
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To avoid any unnecessary guessing, can you share the image you printed?
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Old 2nd June 2017, 22:34   #1905
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I need help with some settings on my OM-D EM 5 Mk II. Recently, I have been doing prints with some of the photos that I take. I did some 15 x 15 prints and they turned out to be good, but when I did a 30 x 30, the pictures weren't that great! They sort of looked blurry. Is this a limitation of the micro four thirds sensor or is it some settings that I had wrongly chosen? I believe that my settings weren't proper! Can some of you that own a OM D, let me know what picture settings I should select so that I get a shaper 30 x 30 prints?

This camera is used by many professional shooters these days. Certainly in combination with the pro lenses you should be able to print razor sharp poster size. The largest I print from my Emk2 is A3 but only because my printer can't handle larger size paper.
But before starting with the setting you need to have sharp enough image to start with. What format are you using, do you do any post processing before prining. As already suggested please post a few images that appear to have this problem

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