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Old 11th October 2011, 17:58   #241
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

@download2live, I think it's just too much of generalization of the people who have DSLR's. Agreed that many probably fall into the later category you've mentioned. But majority of the customer base for DSLR also lies in another category called amateurs/semi professional and who are not going to suddenly jump to micro 4/3rds just because it's light and smaller in size. May be a micro 4/3 will get into their bag as a backup camera but nothing more than that.
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Old 12th October 2011, 17:17   #242
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

I am not sure why I see the line of argument that EVIL will replace DSLRs anytime soon only because they are more portable. That's hardly a reason for a person to shift lock stock and barrel to EVIL cameras. Does someone similarly theorise that compact or mini cars will replace full size sedans coz they are easier to drive, cheaper to buy and maintain? LOL!

For a newcomer from a PNS, an EVIL camera is an expensive proposition. The only advantage of an E-camera is portability and size. That said, electronic viewfinders are possibly the future but both systems have their pluses and minuses and will IMHO co-exist along as have PNS with DSLRs. There are different price points to take care of as well as personal choices not to mention the range of accessories.

Cheers!
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Old 12th October 2011, 21:08   #243
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

I hope more people will stay away from EVIL cameras till I finish getting all the legacy lenses I have been eyeing . Yes, EVIL is EVIL, stay away .

On a serious note, I agree with Kaushik about generalization. I have seen both sides, so called pros with top of the line DSLRs making crappy photos and the not so famous pros who make beautiful images irrespective of the camera. The way I look at EVIL cameras are that they are disposable backs for the old lenses that are optically very good performers (note, I am talking about some really good macro lenses) and even the not so good performers (like the Nikon 75-240mm) perform really well because the center sharpness is so good and well, the edges are cut out because of the 2x crop factor. As far as the resolving power of sensor and why a crop sensor makes more sense than cropping a photo from a full frame etc has been discussed in length on JJMPF. If anyone's interested, I can post the link for that discussion here.
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Old 13th October 2011, 03:58   #244
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
I am not sure why I see the line of argument that EVIL will replace DSLRs anytime soon only because they are more portable. That's hardly a reason for a person to shift lock stock and barrel to EVIL cameras. Does someone similarly theorise that compact or mini cars will replace full size sedans coz they are easier to drive, cheaper to buy and maintain? LOL!

For a newcomer from a PNS, an EVIL camera is an expensive proposition. The only advantage of an E-camera is portability and size. That said, electronic viewfinders are possibly the future but both systems have their pluses and minuses and will IMHO co-exist along as have PNS with DSLRs. There are different price points to take care of as well as personal choices not to mention the range of accessories.

Cheers!
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Old 13th October 2011, 15:04   #245
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by HellwratH View Post
I hope more people will stay away from EVIL cameras till I finish getting all the legacy lenses I have been eyeing . Yes, EVIL is EVIL, stay away .
Even I have been looking for legacy lens's. Any particular place in Bangalore. Have managed to get a 50mm 1.4 Oly Zuiko and a 28mm 2.8 macro again Oly Zuiko.
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Old 13th October 2011, 16:09   #246
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by HellwratH View Post
As far as the resolving power of sensor and why a crop sensor makes more sense than cropping a photo from a full frame etc has been discussed in length on JJMPF. If anyone's interested, I can post the link for that discussion here.
Can you please post the link here? Would be helpful to many I guess. I think it's allowed to post links, right? I've tried to find the discussion thread on JJM but couldn't find it.
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Old 13th October 2011, 16:11   #247
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by rajb3125 View Post
Geez, I wasn`t aware of the fact that all the amateurs and advanced enthusiasts died and went to heaven.

Better yet, we should tell this to Nikon/Canon after all, there is no need for 600D/60D/7D/D5100/D7000/D300s anymore. After all pros buy 5D/1D/D700/D3 series and people for sake of better picture will get D3100/1000D.
Pure Acid.

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Originally Posted by kaushik_s View Post
@download2live, I think it's just too much of generalization of the people who have DSLR's. Agreed that many probably fall into the later category you've mentioned. But majority of the customer base for DSLR also lies in another category called amateurs/semi professional and who are not going to suddenly jump to micro 4/3rds just because it's light and smaller in size. May be a micro 4/3 will get into their bag as a backup camera but nothing more than that.
I have seen a bit too many S/W guys going aboard and coming back with a Big DSLR. Its big so its got to be better.
They really do not have patience to learn the craft. The manual is thick and the topic is vast.
Result: The DSLR comes out on Birthday Parties. That's all.

That's why I said 90%. There are of course people who pursue the craft seriously. Unfortunately they are minority.
In most of the houses DSLR and "Guitar" collect dust .

Now regarding EVIL cameras. I am not saying that professionals are going to switch over full time to them.

But many of the regular crowd will. Already we are seeing the trend abroad. Indian market takes sometime to catch up. Lets wait and see. Shall we?

What my major grouse was that Nikon and Canon were not doing really anything revolutionary. Resting on their laurels, living off the returns on the labor of past is not my idea of progress. If mirrorless cameras are possible then why were they not developing or promoting it? Don't they know many people leave behind the DSLR because of sheer weight and bulk? Technology should always proceed.

Though I hate Sony but I have to give it to them. They launched NEX series armed to teeth knowing fully well that it might cannibalise the sales of its DSLR's. They did not shy from putting APS-C sensors equivalent in NEX series.

Not with Nikon. Word is already out that Nikon V1 is kind of a neutered product more aimed at getting a foothold in EVIL market while still keeping the DSLR line safe. They have plonked a smaller sensor in it. But I will hold my final views till we actually start getting reports in.

EVIL cameras are not laggards as far as image quality is concerned. Some very fine lenses are coming out in market.

Competition is good.
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Old 13th October 2011, 19:56   #248
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by mav2000 View Post
Even I have been looking for legacy lens's. Any particular place in Bangalore. Have managed to get a 50mm 1.4 Oly Zuiko and a 28mm 2.8 macro again Oly Zuiko.
I am sorry, don't be fooled by the location in my profile (will update it). I have been in the US for more than a year now and have gotten all my micro four thirds related stuff here. I am eyeing a 35mm FD f2 lens for $65 which usually sells for about $200-$300.

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Originally Posted by kaushik_s View Post
Can you please post the link here? Would be helpful to many I guess. I think it's allowed to post links, right? I've tried to find the discussion thread on JJM but couldn't find it.
Michael Reichmann's take on Panasonic GH2 (and some general m4/3 comments)

Question about magnification

Both of the above threads started as something else but went into something else . Have fun reading, it's got lot of good stuff in there. Lot of technical stuff that I couldn't even register and eventually just went over my head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by download2live View Post
I have seen a bit too many S/W guys going aboard and coming back with a Big DSLR. Its big so its got to be better.
They really do not have patience to learn the craft. The manual is thick and the topic is vast.
Result: The DSLR comes out on Birthday Parties. That's all.

......

But many of the regular crowd will. Already we are seeing the trend abroad. Indian market takes sometime to catch up. Lets wait and see. Shall we?

....

Not with Nikon. Word is already out that Nikon V1 is kind of a neutered product more aimed at getting a foothold in EVIL market while still keeping the DSLR line safe. They have plonked a smaller sensor in it. But I will hold my final views till we actually start getting reports in.

EVIL cameras are not laggards as far as image quality is concerned. Some very fine lenses are coming out in market.

Competition is good.
Agree to the first point about DSLRs and birthday parties. I have seen atleast 5-6 people in my team who have them and use it only in parties and don't want to learn or have no interest in learning.

But, to the second point, I don't think that the jump will happen. I have tried suggesting EVIL cameras to many such people and they just don't identify with it. For them, DSLR is associated with their image and if they don't see a big black camera with either Nikon/Canon on it, they won't even touch it. I try telling them that for their needs a bridge or a P&S camera will suffice, but they don't want to listen, they're already sold on DSLRs .

Agree to the last point as well. In today's world, 80-90% (from my experience, no real data) of the people use cameras to make better photographs and just store it online. They don't print and for that purpose an EVIL camera will do just as good as a bigger DSLR. And if you see the photographs by "naturecloseups" from the above JJMPF links, you'll be blown by what he can do with his EPL1.
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Old 13th October 2011, 20:24   #249
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

Quote:
Originally Posted by HellwratH View Post


Michael Reichmann's take on Panasonic GH2 (and some general m4/3 comments)

Question about magnification

Both of the above threads started as something else but went into something else . Have fun reading, it's got lot of good stuff in there. Lot of technical stuff that I couldn't even register and eventually just went over my head.
Gosh, seems like I'm missing loads of fun at JJM, gotta be regular there from now on. But that would mean less time in TBHP :(.. Going through the discussions now, interesting.
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Old 13th October 2011, 21:03   #250
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by kaushik_s View Post
Gosh, seems like I'm missing loads of fun at JJM, gotta be regular there from now on. But that would mean less time in TBHP :(.. Going through the discussions now, interesting.
Actually, this line clears up a lot of confusion that we had in the last page..

Quoting NC - "Not really, m4/3rds lenses are designed to give a smaller image circle -- that's where the size and weight saving come from. That has been the whole point about m4/3 all the while.

Additionally -- native m4/3 lenses are required, by the m4/3 standards specs, to design lenses in a manner that light hits the sensor in a mostly perpendicular fashion even in the extreme edges and corners. Not sure how many 3rd party makers will follow it, though."
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Old 14th October 2011, 18:55   #251
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
I am not sure why I see the line of argument that EVIL will replace DSLRs anytime soon only because they are more portable.
Because lot of people have been predicting that. Even the link posted by HellwratH says the same thing. "Frankly, the writing is on the wall. It won't be more than a few years until the vast majority of new camera model with viewfinders dispense with prisms and mirrors and replace them with EVFs.", in other words EVIL.

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That's hardly a reason for a person to shift lock stock and barrel to EVIL cameras. Does someone similarly theorise that compact or mini cars will replace full size sedans coz they are easier to drive, cheaper to buy and maintain? LOL!
Your analogy actually undermines your logic. Lot of people do switch from sedan to hatch because it is easier to drive in the city. I don't drive my SUV in Bangalore traffic, I take my wife's i10 instead. After getting tired of lugging my 1.375Kg dSLR (body+primary lens) all over the place for 3 years, I got attracted at the EVIL option. I do lot of offroad photography where I have to constantly jump in and out of the Jeep. Having to pack and unpack big dSLR everytime is a pain. Now I do have couple of lenses to go with E-PL1. However, I confess that some of my assumptions have been wrong.

1) I thought I could use my excellent 4/3 lenses with E-PL1. The adopter itself costs some $250, that was the first disappointment. Secondly, the AF doesn't work well. The dSLR bodies use phase detection, while EVIL bodies use contrast detection. Thirdly, I placed my 12-60mm next to the E-PL1 body and groaned, it defeats the whole purpose.

2) I totally overlooked the fact that I was used to fast zoom lenses. And EVIL has no fast zoom lenses right now. I have been lamenting about that for quite some time on this thread.

3) I bought 9-18mm and 14-42mm m4/3 lenses hoping to make up for the unavailability of 12-60mm lens in m4/3. But it is not really working out that way.

So you can LOL all you like, but some things have to be experienced first hand. Does that mean my EVIL experiment was a total failure? No really. My E-PL1 has become my primary travel lens, that is with me all the time. But for the offroad trips where I need maximum flexibility, I still take my E-3 & 12-60mm along with the E-PL1.

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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
For a newcomer from a PNS, an EVIL camera is an expensive proposition.
EVIL is good choice for people who buy entry level dSLR just for the bigger sensors, hence clearer images, etc.

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Give the man a candy, he speaks the truth
He is merely agreeing with you, so you give him the candy.
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Old 14th October 2011, 21:27   #252
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Because lot of people have been predicting that. Even the link posted by HellwratH says the same thing. "Frankly, the writing is on the wall. It won't be more than a few years until the vast majority of new camera model with viewfinders dispense with prisms and mirrors and replace them with EVFs.", in other words EVIL.

Your analogy actually undermines your logic. Lot of people do switch from sedan to hatch because it is easier to drive in the city.
I don't believe you have followed what I am saying and think you are taking this personally. My thoughts were not about your set of circumstances as an example but a comment about what *I* feel about EVIL cameras. If you read my post carefully I said that it is possible an electronic viewfinder will replace the reflex mirror and it possibly would be an advancement. I would certainly like a compact camera (I have a PNS) but it or an EVIL system not going to replace my DSLR anytime soon. So you have an issue with carrying a few kilos around - there are people who don't and that includes me. Let's leave it at that shall we?

As for cars - none of us sing songs about compacts and hatches ringing the death knell for larger cars. I said so myself they are easier to buy but they are hardly going to replace larger cars. Ditto for DSLRs and EVIL and PNS - they will co-exist to cater to different customer preferences just like A, B, C, D classes cars do[/quote]

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So you can LOL all you like, but some things have to be experienced first
Oh yes I will "LOL" coz I find these doomsday scenarios rather offbeat.

Have a nice day.

Cheers!
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Old 14th October 2011, 21:41   #253
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Oh yes I will "LOL" coz I find these doomsday scenarios rather offbeat.
Frankly, I don't understand why you think EVIL doesn't measure up. But then, you don't have to explain it.
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Old 14th October 2011, 22:04   #254
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Frankly, I don't understand why you think EVIL doesn't measure up. But then, you don't have to explain it.
Samurai, frankly I don't understand why you think my opinion is slanted towards EVILs being inferior. I am all for advancement in tech - an electronic viewfinder is good advancement. I am keen on checking out the Sony NEX7 some day.

But I won't get take up cudgels just because people don't share the same enthusiasm about my preferred camera system (DSLRs). IMHO, these systems cater to different requirements and customer preferences, including financial budgets.

But then you have your own opinion and I have mine, with neither one owing each other an explanation.
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Old 14th October 2011, 22:22   #255
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Your analogy actually undermines your logic. Lot of people do switch from sedan to hatch because it is easier to drive in the city. I don't drive my SUV in Bangalore traffic, I take my wife's i10 instead. After getting tired of lugging my 1.375Kg dSLR (body+primary lens) all over the place for 3 years, I got attracted at the EVIL option. I do lot of offroad photography where I have to constantly jump in and out of the Jeep. Having to pack and unpack big dSLR everytime is a pain. Now I do have couple of lenses to go with E-PL1. However, I confess that some of my assumptions have been wrong.
Samurai San, keeping with the same logic, when you go out to what you love most (i.e. offroading) you don't take your i10, right?
Please don't think that I'm against EVIL (or for that matter any camera), I love cameras of any size (be it a puny compact or a DSLR, and I don't have a Hassie, but I still love it) as long as it give me a good image. As I said probably people who already have DSLR systems and are serious about their photography (not considering the only birthday party DSLR holders at all, they are of not my concern anyway) will probably get a EVIL kind of camera as a backup body or probably for street shooting. But I don't see anyone serious enough to change the whole system for an EVIL system. As for me, I'm looking for a Full Frame as next upgrade as that's what is important for my primary kind of shooting, i.e. Landscapes.
Another things comes to my mind is ergonomics, in fact it's now top of my head after doing a few shoots where I had to shoot almost continuously for 3.5 hours, man that's a pain and I don't think a small camera which doesn't fit in hand properly can be of any help.
But again, hey, I even thought that I won't be shifting from Films to Digital (it took me complete 1.5 hours after launch of digital SLR to shift to digital). So if the EVIL cameras prove their mettle and can be something which actually can replace conventional DSLRs and still be better then why not? An EV in a DSLR's body will surely do the work for me although it would reduce the weight and it will probably feel kind of little unbalanced with bigger lenses. But again, I'm only assuming and that issue can be easily tackled with while designing.
Just my random thoughts, I might be way off..
Regards,
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