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Old 8th January 2011, 13:12   #61
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

Which is the best? Easy to ask, but the answer is complicated.

The most bang for the buck is E-PL1, it is also the cheapest. You can wait for the E-PL2 if you don't want to buy the outdated model. The E-P1 and E-P2 are not worth looking at as of now.

That leaves the Panasonic models. The GF series is very expensive, almost twice the price of E-PL1. No IS in body, have to buy IS lenses. The lenses again are expensive.

I'll leave Hellwrath to talk about G1/G2 since he is more familiar with it.
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Old 9th January 2011, 14:22   #62
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

EPL1 retails at $350 currently and EPL2 is for $500. A bit of research on some photography sites reveal that EP2 has some changes to minor ergonomics and made easier for P&S folks.

How much is the NEX5 in India and if it is worthy of $650 in US? Also something that rattles my brain is why canon is not into ILC?

If I get EPL1 what is the most versatile lens I should have?

Thanks!

P.S. these are a lot of questions but pardon my ignorance as I am a noob.
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Old 10th January 2011, 00:01   #63
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

As of now, only micro 4/3 has a good set of lenses. The NEX or Samsung system have only couple kit lenses.

The list of micro 4/3 lenses can be seen here: Four Thirds | Micro Four Thirds | Products(Lenses)

What is the most versatile lens? That depends on your photography needs. For me wide angle is very important, so I am planning to make 9-18mm as my primary lens.

If a big range is important to you, you can even look at 14-150mm which is like 28-300mm EFL.
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Old 10th January 2011, 00:53   #64
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

^You mean Olympus only has a good set?

Thanks!
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Old 10th January 2011, 12:48   #65
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

The micro 4/3 not merely Olympus. Half the lenses are Panasonic.

If you really think about it, most people who buy enter level dSLRs are better off with EVIL cameras. Yet, they end up buying bulky dSLRs.

I think, until Nikon and Canon come out with their EVIL cameras, this situation will continue. After that most entry level buyers will switch over to Canon/Nikon EVIL cameras, and only pros will remain in dSLR.
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Old 10th January 2011, 13:01   #66
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
I think, until Nikon and Canon come out with their EVIL cameras, this situation will continue. After that most entry level buyers will switch over to Canon/Nikon EVIL cameras, and only pros will remain in dSLR.
Well on that DSLR thread of T-BHP lots of people put a whole lot of emphasis on ergonomics dedicated dials and buttons etc citing that as an important reason to buy a particular brand body with inferior or missing features at inflated price. I always used to cross paths with them.

I hope you "were" not one of them
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Old 10th January 2011, 13:14   #67
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

I confess I was one of the them. But the advantage of small size cannot be overlooked in the long run.
  • I was concerned about the hold. But I found that if I rolled the strap once around my palm, the tiny size doesn't bother me much.
  • There is no dial for changing settings, but the alternative is not so bad. In fact, the jog buttons are letting me change aperture very fast. So that is not an issue either.

In the E3, I can shoot 21 shots in 5 seconds before the buffer get filled and delays the next shot. Now, that is great, but I never really use my camera like that. The PL1 takes lot longer to write to the card. I think that has to do with the class 4 card that came with the camera. PL1 needs class 6 or more.
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Old 10th January 2011, 15:05   #68
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

Congrats Sam
E-PL2 is not much of a difference ovr E-PL1.

the major point of diff is the program dial for PASM etc.


I was reading about NEX - And I believe that is the way to go.
NEX has bigger sensor than micro fourthirds, yet it is smaller sized than GF and PEN.
NEX-3, I believe, is priced around 28K at Chrome malls.

Ultimately, I see only optics as being the limit for size, electronics will shrink to the point that we will have lenses, and small mounts with single microchip at the end (which has sensor on one side, display on the other side with touch screen).

Thats it. From a distance it will look like you are only handling the lens. No camera body visible.


And this talk about big DSLR body being comfortable.
Yes, so are the Motorola walky-talkie sized mobile phones.
How many do we have today in this world?

The future is EVIL.
In fact, can anyone here pray tell me the real reason for keeping a reflex mirror assembly on old SLRs?

Yes, it was to get the actual view to your eyes, because of the limitations of the film.

In digital age, you don't need a complex array of lens, screens and prisms to achieve that.
The digital sensor is a convenient film which get exposed based on your convenience. Rest of the times, it (sensor + display) can act like a viewfinder.

Last edited by alpha1 : 10th January 2011 at 15:12.
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Old 10th January 2011, 15:17   #69
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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I think that has to do with the class 4 card that came with the camera. PL1 needs class 6 or more.
Buy at-least a Class 10 , class 10 = 10mbps ( bits not bytes) , The average raw file size is in excess of 15Mb these days and given the frame rate of camera you will always exceed even Class 10 write speed in burst mode or continuous shooting mode. As of now you might not think of this as of any use but you will be surprised how often you will use if you don't see any write delays.

Most people who have Cameras with outdated electronics comment what use is this feature X and how it is a gimmick, that may be anything to do with electronics such as burstspeed , ISO range , Number of AF points etc

But my experience with technology is that use-case comes as features land in hand of the user for example with my 500D I see no great need of flash in normal scenarios in low light because ISO1600 is usable but if you ever dare to tell the ISO value people will sermonize that why high ISO should not be used and suddenly their eyes will see digital noise which was quite invisible if I would not have told them the ISO value
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Old 10th January 2011, 16:53   #70
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

SDXC cards with 30mbps are all the craze these days.

I used to have xD cards that were ultra fast but the it lost the battle to SD cards due to its size. xD card was like a mini SD built for speed but not for capacity. Fuji used it in its FinePix range.
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Old 10th January 2011, 20:59   #71
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

Posting a test shot to demonstrate the image quality. It was little hard to shoot since my son doesn't pose, and the 28mm wide was not adequate while standing in the middle of many horses. I didn't want to be within kicked range of any horse.

Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras-p10800331.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
Congrats Sam
E-PL2 is not much of a difference ovr E-PL1.

the major point of diff is the program dial for PASM etc.
But I am already loving the button based system, it is faster to use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
I was reading about NEX - And I believe that is the way to go.
NEX has bigger sensor than micro fourthirds, yet it is smaller sized than GF and PEN.
NEX-3, I believe, is priced around 28K at Chrome malls.
Initially I was tempted to go for the NEX looking at the compactness and superior features. However, I stepped back and wondered about the image itself. The NEX barely has any lenses, and the image quality despite the bigger sensor is nowhere near the PL1. Olympus Zuiko on the other hand already a rich set of lenses and PL1 has very good image quality even with the lousy kit lens. And in-body IS can be extended to any legacy lens, from any system.

I believe in spending more on lenses than on the body. I can do that in Zuiko, can't do so in NEX. May be in 2-3 years I can replace the body, but continue to use the lenses.

Funnily enough, same argument was used against Olympus 4/3 system when they introduced the Olympus E-1 back in 2003. The 4/3 doesn't have enough lenses, so better avoid that system. Now it is the turn of Olympus to benefit from the same.

At first I too was thinking that I may use my legacy lenses (4/3) frequently with E-PL1. But that defeats the very purpose of a small body. That means I will stick to m4/3 lenses for all practical purposes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
The future is EVIL.
In fact, can anyone here pray tell me the real reason for keeping a reflex mirror assembly on old SLRs?
I realised this truth few months back, that is when I decided my next camera will be EVIL.
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Old 11th January 2011, 10:01   #72
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

Both the systems have their positives and negatives. I love the menu system of the NEX and anyone moving up from a P&S will not have a problem, specially those who have been using a smartphone for a while...seriously, its pretty easy to navigate around and I dont think it should be very difficult to adapt to. The camera itself is a pleasure to work with and is very nice to hold and feels very solid. That being said, here is what I felt where the major positives and negatives of the NEX system:

Advantages:

1. Small size of camera body
2. Superb LCD screen, makes MF that much easier
3. Larger sensor, so low light works out quite well
4. Panoramic mode, works very very well. Have tried it 3-4 times and it worked perfectly all the time.
5. HDR Mode - again works great
6. Hand held twilight mode - superb stuff
7. Battery life is pretty good
8. Brilliant video mode

Disadvantages:

1. No decent small prime lens, which could have actually made this easier to carry
2. Stock lens is so so
3. No hot shoe, so additional accessories may be an issue in the future
4. Sony

I say Sony because they tend to have some issue with prevailing standards all the time. They always try to make their own standards and half the time that fails. So if the E mount fails, thats it for all the owners as no one else is making any lens's right now.

On Micro 4/3rds, specific to the EPL series:

Advantages:

1. Great number of manual controls as compared to NEX
2. Even a point and shoot user can use these manual controls with simple to understand options and then unlock more options to get deeper into the whole thing
3. Superb sensor and kit lens which is extremely sharp
4. 2-3 lens makers with a decent selection of lens's as well as accessories. The VF2 is a good buy and there is also a macro flash coming up...
5. Much easier to carry with kit lens then the NEX
6. More mature product overall
7. Decent battery life

Disadvantages:

1. Screen - If you cant afford the VF 2 the screen on the EPL 1 sucks...The EPL 2 is better, but the review still need to come out for that
2. Laggy interface when using special modes like diorama and stuff like that. The screen lags a lot and thats where the VF 2 helps as well
3. Interface is not as clean or easy to read for a P&S user.
4. Slow kit lens - though EPL 2 seems to have solved this as well.
5. Low light issues with kit lens - No AF assist....come on Oly, you have it for basic P&S as well.
6. Only 7 minutes of video recording....again whats with this????

So as you can see each have their negatives...choose what suits you better. BTW, I spoke to Oly yesterday and they assured me that the EPL 2 will be retailing by the second week of Feb at around 29k-30k. Worth it at that price as the NEX 5 is around 3-4k more and the NEX 3 is the same price.Hopefully with both of these in India, we can look forward to more users moving to EVIL systems rather than wasting money on advanced P&S...come on seriously the G12 is 30k and the s95 is 26k. Pany dont even have stock of LX 3 and LX 5 both of which are in the same range as well and more expensive than the entry level DSLR's.

Last edited by mav2000 : 11th January 2011 at 10:04.
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Old 11th January 2011, 10:51   #73
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

As mentioned somewhere by me
"Premium P&S" like G12, LX3/5, S95, P7000 are nothing but display of elite snobbery. They are meant to be a professional's P&S, because they would prefer spending double more to get that 1% photographic advantage over others.

Things for us, normal folks to keep in mind, is that they are still Point and shoot, offering not much great advantage over other P&S.



I agree NEX has problems with lenses, but adapter and new lenses are going to come (perhaps in 1-2 years).
And I believe Sony has realized that if they want to make an impact in camera market - its EVIL.

Check their DSLR. Except the higher end ones, they have strictly speaking the lowest specd camera in the market.

Anyway, for now (as well as for future) micro 4/3 is the way forward.
Besides, micro4/3 and NEX have more things in common than otherwise.
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Old 11th January 2011, 11:12   #74
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

Quote:
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As mentioned somewhere by me
"Premium P&S" like G12, LX3/5, S95, P7000 are nothing but display of elite snobbery. They are meant to be a professional's P&S, because they would prefer spending double more to get that 1% photographic advantage over others.
What would you say of Leica Dlux 3 / 5 then ? it is exactly same as Panasonic model manufactured by Panasonic but with a red dot and marketed by Leica.
I saw someone exchanged it for a DSLR or 38K in Buy and sell section of another popular Indian forum it was gone with in 3 days. Where as the exact equivalent Panasonic P&S remains unsold in the same forum
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Old 11th January 2011, 11:45   #75
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

Like you said the Leica is very similar and has the same sensor as the panas. Again this is more marketing hype than anything else. The premium P&S does give better images than the normal P&S, but thats about it. Dial up the ISO anywhere over 400 and they suffer.
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