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Old 21st January 2013, 11:36   #736
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

Any users of Canon EOS-M here ?

Bug of shifting from my Olympus EPL-3 to EOS-M has entered my mind and unable to put it down.
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Old 21st January 2013, 12:57   #737
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Any users of Canon EOS-M here ?

Bug of shifting from my Olympus EPL-3 to EOS-M has entered my mind and unable to put it down.
There is hardly any advantage in the EOS-M .It has slowest AF in mirrorless cameras and lens selection is limited.

If you do want a camera with a APS-C sensor a better choice would be the Sony NEX5R or the NEX 6.But since you are already using a m4/3 mount you can upgrade to the OM-D.
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Old 21st January 2013, 13:23   #738
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by aim120 View Post
There is hardly any advantage in the EOS-M .It has slowest AF in mirrorless cameras and lens selection is limited.

If you do want a camera with a APS-C sensor a better choice would be the Sony NEX5R or the NEX 6.But since you are already using a m4/3 mount you can upgrade to the OM-D.
But he has a Canon SLR and he can use his Canon lenses on the EOS-M. Probably thats the idea.

How I wish Canon, Nikon and Sony had come together and jointly developed a crop sensor mirrorless system (just like what Oly, Panasonic and Kodak have done with m4/3). That would have been awesome (though it would have meant losing on their crop sensor SLR sales). Imagine having access to high quality Zeiss lenses on your Canon or Nikon MLCs or having ability to use your nikon accessories on sony MLC etc. Win-win for the consumer but thats hardly what they want init?
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Old 21st January 2013, 13:24   #739
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Default Re: The DSLR Thread

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Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
Well EPL3 is not really that much of a DSLR alternative (IMO), but cameras like Nex-6, Nex-7 or the OM-D are! They have everything that comparable DSLRs have and much more. Thats why I said, in $1000 space MLCs give serious competition to crop sensor DSLRs.

Also entry level DSLRs can also be fiddly to change settings as they also have limited number of buttons. And any interface is just all about getting used to, even the iphone
It is not about an experienced user like me I am comfirtable with everything including NEX , EPL or Canon interfaces it was about giving an advanced camera to a newbie or non camera person who has handled nothing but a P&S.

Coming back to my point of view.

Mirrorless system today are good for rangefinder like street shooters but if this is not your genere then there is very little you can do about it.

I am unable to source Olympus 60mm F2.8 1:1 anywhere in local market yet.
Yes using legacy lenses is option and that is why I purchased EPL-3 but still I find using legacy lenses easier on Canon EOS.

Crux of the story if Sigma 150-500 / Canon 100-400 and Sigma/Canon 10-20 are your most used lenses then still EVIL cameras are not for you.

It works fine if you are 30/50 mm focal length user and shoot people on street.

I really did not like NEX interface and it's UI and that is why I rejected NEX series I tested NEX-7 high MP were of no interest to me.
Among EPL-5 and EPL-3 there was very little difference in terms of usable features so settled for EPL-3/

To me personally OM-D makes no sense as it kills the primary advantage of buying olympus mirrorless that is small form factor. Yes it is a big hit among retro design seekrs just like Fuji X-100 but still I am not convinced yet.

Also while EVF has advantage of WYSIWYG but it looks ghastly specially in fluroscent lights when compared to OVF.

Till now I have found Olympus EP series and Samsung NX XXX series to be best of the lot among non-bulky mirrorless when it comes to holding in hand.

Last edited by amitk26 : 21st January 2013 at 13:37.
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Old 21st January 2013, 13:32   #740
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by aim120 View Post
There is hardly any advantage in the EOS-M .It has slowest AF in mirrorless cameras and lens selection is limited.

If you do want a camera with a APS-C sensor a better choice would be the Sony NEX5R or the NEX 6.But since you are already using a m4/3 mount you can upgrade to the OM-D.
Apart from AF speed ( comapred to OM-D) are there any other obvious problems with EOS-M ?

The idea is to use my Canon mount Sigma 30mm F1.4 /50mm F1.4 and 10-20 UWA lens here the AF speed does not matter much.

Yes I have seen the AF speed comparison video with OM-D but for birds/ sports anyway NEX and OM-D are also useless I have a Sigma 150 - 500mm lens and in future may get a Canon 400 F5.6 but I do not fancy attaching it to a tiny mirrorless.

Perhaps if a version II is released for Canon of EOS-M lot of people will jump to it I guess.
Anyway I am not in any hurry just that these kind of thoughts keep on cropping every now and then.
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Old 21st January 2013, 14:17   #741
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Default Re: The DSLR Thread

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Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
Well EPL3 is not really that much of a DSLR alternative (IMO), but cameras like Nex-6, Nex-7 or the OM-D are!
These are MLCs but alternatives alright. The R in the DSLR comes from the Reflex mirror that is missing in the OM-D et al..which is why they are called as such.

Nex series and OM-D are MLCs while Sony Alphas are DSLTs. T = translucent mirror.

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And actually you can use Canikon lenses as well on these MLCs with adaptors. The only thing missing is a touchscreen!
A person buys a MLC for 2 reasons - the primary being size and portability, and secondary is IQ relative to DX DSLRs. Some people might say the converse of the above with IQ being the primary factor.

Frankly if I were to use a MLC, including a Nikon 1, with my SLR lenses it would defeat the purpose of having a compact camera. Believe some lenses would make the MLC look like a large lens cap. Using a much larger FX/DX lens on a MLC negates the advantages of having a compact camera system.

So, if I buy a MLC, as I will some day, it will complement my DSLRs and give me an size/portability option and/or serve as a backup camera. It will be kitted out with the lenses from that particular format. Of all the MLCs today, I am leaning towards the m4/3rds system. DSLTs are bulkier and more expensive.

As Amitk26 has very correctly pointed out, it is best that each person considers both options i.e. DSLR or MLC, read the pros and the cons of each system, preferably play with them @ a store, before forking out the cash. Ergonomics play a BIG role in the comfort levels. For e.g. I use the D4 more than the D800. It is heavier but so beautifully and ergonomically designed that I don't feel or mind the extra 200g of weight. And it fits beautifully in my medium sized hands.

Last edited by R2D2 : 21st January 2013 at 14:31. Reason: Corrections
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Old 21st January 2013, 14:21   #742
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

The canon also lacks focus peaking for manual focus.It also has a poorer battery life compared to the NEX or olympus,also worst in ergonomics.

The AF speed with native EOS M STM lens are slow,its really slow when you add the Canon EF/EF-S lens via the adaptor.
Many say that the Third party AF adapters for the NEX do a faster job in focusing canon EF/EF-S lens then canon own EOS M.
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Old 21st January 2013, 14:36   #743
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by aim120 View Post
The canon also lacks focus peaking for manual focus.It also has a poorer battery life compared to the NEX or olympus,also worst in ergonomics.

The AF speed with native EOS M STM lens are slow,its really slow when you add the Canon EF/EF-S lens via the adaptor.
Many say that the Third party AF adapters for the NEX do a faster job in focusing canon EF/EF-S lens then canon own EOS M.
Well focus peek is least of concern , I get focus peek on Canon DSLR using Magic Lantern and Magic Lantern Alpha is out for EOS-M

http://www.magiclantern.fm/whats-new...updates-inside

However I need to test how slow is AF with adapter , theoritically I do not think of a reason why it should be any slower then what it is already because there is no electrical protocol change between EF/EF-S and EF-M the adapter is just an extension tube with 5 point electrical contacts.

I tried EOS-M very briefly in airport DF shop but I think I need to test it more thourougly will check if it is available at Canon Image square.
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Old 21st January 2013, 14:45   #744
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

Quote:
Originally Posted by aim120 View Post
There is hardly any advantage in the EOS-M .It has slowest AF in mirrorless cameras and lens selection is limited.

If you do want a camera with a APS-C sensor a better choice would be the Sony NEX5R or the NEX 6.But since you are already using a m4/3 mount you can upgrade to the OM-D.
I agree. Why not upgrade within the m4/3
The OM-D is an excellent camera.

Fitting Canon EOS lenses on the M platform will kind of negate the benefits of going with the smaller system
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Old 21st January 2013, 14:48   #745
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
To me personally OM-D makes no sense as it kills the primary advantage of buying olympus mirrorless that is small form factor.
.
.
.
Till now I have found Olympus EP series and Samsung NX XXX series to be best of the lot among non-bulky mirrorless when it comes to holding in hand.
I find this comment surprising because I find the OM-D really small. With collapsible lens, it can sit on a CD-ROM.

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Old 21st January 2013, 14:58   #746
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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I find this comment surprising because I find the OM-D really small. With collapsible lens, it can sit on a CD-ROM.
OK I will have a relook , I tried once in same Airport DFS side by side with
EOS-M.

Perceptibaly OM-D only felt just bit smaller then Canon 600D may be more like Canon 450D/500D.

Handling of Samsung NX-200 seemed best but left it because of lack of eco system in India.

I think I should control this itch and I spend more hands on time before I dump my EPL-3 for something else
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Old 21st January 2013, 15:07   #747
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post

However I need to test how slow is AF with adapter , theoritically I do not think of a reason why it should be any slower then what it is already because there is no electrical protocol change between EF/EF-S and EF-M the adapter is just an extension tube with 5 point electrical contacts.

I tried EOS-M very briefly in airport DF shop but I think I need to test it more thourougly will check if it is available at Canon Image square.
The EF and EF-S AF motors are not designed with Contrast Detect AF or CDAF of the EOS M,while the EOS M does have on sensor Phase Detect AF or PDAF ,its just there to assist the CDAF.

The EOS M also uses a 750mah battery ,so its peak amperes will be lower then that of the LP-E8 1250mah battery found in cameras like 650D.So keeping in mind that the Image sensor and LCD is always On ,there will be a lower reserve power available for the lens AF motor,probably not enough for the motors found in EF/EF-S lens.
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Old 21st January 2013, 15:37   #748
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by aim120 View Post
The EF and EF-S AF motors are not designed with Contrast Detect AF or CDAF of the EOS M,while the EOS M does have on sensor Phase Detect AF or PDAF ,its just there to assist the CDAF.
Well EOS-M has hybrid focussing that is phase detection pixels built on to imaging sensor, It is another matter that still it sucks compared CDAF speed of OM-D.

http://www.canon-europe.com/images/E...m13-952096.pdf

IMHO the way CDAF or PDAF works is that body calculates the AF point and orders the lens to move. Lens itself has no role in it except moving as per the command from body.

IMHO this is the reason why same lenses which were slow on generation one CDAF of EPL-1 are faster on OM-D.

EOS-M lenses and also new EF 40mm F2.8 lens are with stepper motor so that they can have continuous focus while moving for video. But this does not make it slower or faster in locking focus , It just gives capability to track subject in video the earlier solution was to use manual lenses for Video. I don't know if continuous focus of video is a big issue because I use for stills mostly.

One related question to someone who has used both OM-D and Canon system
is CDAF of OM-D as good as AI-Servo PDAF of Canon 7D/60D/650D ? Though the question is mostly acadamic because it is for tracking using long lenses.


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The EOS M also uses a 750mah battery ,so its peak amperes will be lower then that of the LP-E8 1250mah battery found in cameras like 650D.So keeping in mind that the Image sensor and LCD is always On ,there will be a lower reserve power available for the lens AF motor,probably not enough for the motors found in EF/EF-S lens.
Lower mAH battery means lower battery life , but it does not mean that peak current for load can not be delivered.

Both LP-E6 (60D/7D) and LP-E12 are 7.2V so this means LP-E12 will last about 40% less time then LP-E6 for same load.
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Old 21st January 2013, 16:00   #749
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

I am glad that we are at this discussion. I will be going on a hunt for a new camera this weekend (with ~40-45k in my pocket).

I have shortlisted a few, but not sure if it should be a MLC or a DSLR. I love the Sony NEX series, but Sony has been too conservative with respect to the growth of the eco-system in India. Their pricing is puzzling to me. I have used the NEX-3 and the menu is quite straight forward IMO, may be because I am used to Sony camera for some time now.

OM-D EM5 is out of budget, so it could mostly be Canon EOS-M. But, after reading the views here, I am thinking again. I am not impressed by the Nikon V1 and J1. I think they are overpriced for what they offer.

What say friends?
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Old 21st January 2013, 16:12   #750
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Well EOS-M has hybrid focussing that is phase detection pixels built on to imaging sensor, It is another matter that still it sucks compared CDAF speed of OM-D.

http://www.canon-europe.com/images/E...m13-952096.pdf

IMHO the way CDAF or PDAF works is that body calculates the AF point and orders the lens to move. Lens itself has no role in it except moving as per the command from body.
Thats what i said the PDAF is there to assist the CDAF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
EOS-M lenses and also new EF 40mm F2.8 lens are with stepper motor so that they can have continuous focus while moving for video. But this does not make it slower or faster in locking focus , It just gives capability to track subject in video the earlier solution was to use manual lenses for Video. I don't know if continuous focus of video is a big issue because I use for stills mostly.
When you use EF/EF-S lenses on EOS-M at best one can hope for is the speed you get in Live view on a canon DSLR.But that isn't the case here as its even slower.


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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Lower mAH battery means lower battery life , but it does not mean that peak current for load can not be delivered.

Both LP-E6 (60D/7D) and LP-E12 are 7.2V so this means LP-E12 will last about 40% less time then LP-E6 for same load.
While lower mah means low battery life,incase you don't know about discharge characteristics of Lithium batteries, each battery will have a different peak power that you can draw.
Take for eg A 17500 cylindrical Li-Ion battery with a capacity of 840mah can at max give out 1.6A but a 18650 cylindrical battery with a capacity of 1400mah can give 2.6A and so on.
So different capacity batteries have different peak power that they can give.
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