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Old 19th February 2013, 12:44   #856
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

^^Ditto. I await the DX MLC. They will be compatible with the DX and FX range of lenses but probably have a dedicated set of light weight lenses to match.

Hope they have good low light sensitivity, high ISO capability and fast AF. Then we are looking at an MLC line that will eventually replace DX DSLR cameras..something many have predicted will happen. I hope Nikon introduce at least 1 and probably the last pro level DX camera a D400 or equivalent as a swan song.

As for the Nikon 1 system..I really don't know what the future holds. May be targetted towards consumers.

This is getting to be an interesting product mix with IMO slight overlaps in the customer segmentation.

a) Consumers and Amateurs (upgrading from PnS) - Nikon 1. This is a critical product as PNS cameras are slowly being driven to extinction by camera phones.

b) Amateurs & Advanced Amateur/Pro backups - DX DSLR or DX MLC. My bet is on the DX MLC if and only if its AF/resolution/low light capabilities are up to the mark and not crippled to avoid cannibalisation of the DX DSLR line.

c) Advanced amateurs and pros - FX DSLRs with a DX MLC (or DX DSLR, less likely) as a backup. Best of both worlds I tell ya! Yahooooo!

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Old 19th February 2013, 13:20   #857
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Default Re: Nikon to introduce new EVIL cameras

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They are also expected to introduce new interchangeable lens MLCs this year to go head to head with the Canon-M.
Why should Nikon go head to head with the lamest EVIL system out there? Why shouldn't they target the King, the OM-D, and the m4/3 eco system.
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Old 19th February 2013, 13:41   #858
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Default Re: Nikon to introduce new EVIL cameras

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Why should Nikon go head to head with the lamest EVIL system out there? Why shouldn't they target the King, the OM-D, and the m4/3 eco system.
Probably because it's from Canon. Hey, they have to come back with an 'appropriate' response to the Canon-M, right? And it is APS-C while the Oly is a m43 and Nikon may be believing (correctly or not) they have the rather sorry Nikon 1 system pitched against it as competition.

I've read some reviews of the Nikon 1 V2 (all decent/good, except 1 guy who trashed it) and it's going to be introduced in India next month from what a dealer tells me.

However after reading about the APS-C MLC from Nikon, now that got me really interested but I have tempered my expectations. They won't kill off their crop sensor DSLRs so soon and the MLC may be crippled at least to begin with...and prove to be just as lame as the Canon-M.
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Old 19th February 2013, 15:18   #859
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

R2D2,
Theres little point of a DX sensor MLC really. The lenses are going to be big/expensive still. So the size advantage offered by M4/3 wont count. And with the latest M4/3 cameras, in terms of performance, both Oly and Panasonic have come pretty close to the best DX sensor cameras.

So unless Canikon come up with a revolutionary sensor that is orders of magnitude better than the one in cameras like OM-D EM-5, I dont see the point of persisting with DX (but then, that kind of sensor would hurt them in their FX sales). The only reason to still persist with DX sensor could be savings because of economies of scale (for the same sensor is there in their DSLRs) but it is hardly beneficial for the end user (i.e. the consumer photographer). If you ask me, both Canon and Nikon should join hands together and define a common ML system if they want to go for a DX ML system. This can help both of them to bridge the gap with M4/3 pretty fast. And I firmly believe that the era of DX SLR is coming to an end. Nobody seems to be investing in innovating in that space. Its just mindless churning of one body after another (cue the latest D5200. What does it offer that others dont?)

The fall of a giant like Nokia should tell these companies that leaderships in technology world could change hands very fast. If they are happy to rest on past laurels, one day and pretty soon, we'd be writing obituaries on these distinguished companies as well (Thom Hagen's personal views notwithstanding).
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Old 19th February 2013, 15:46   #860
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

Olympus produced their last dSLR in 2010, after that they put all their R&D effort into m4/3. Also, they never used the cripple philosophy. The latest camera generally has the latest technology. The E-PL5 came after OM-D and has the same sensor with even better IQ.

Nikon and Canon want to maintain pro-series dSLR, amateur series dSLR and EVIL series, where the last two will severely overlap and will be addressing same segment of customers. If they offer crippled EVIL (to save amateur dSLRs), they will be found very very wanting when customers compare them to m4/3 offerings.
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Old 19th February 2013, 15:58   #861
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Nikon and Canon want to maintain pro-series dSLR, amateur series dSLR and EVIL series, where the last two will severely overlap and will be addressing same segment of customers. If they offer crippled EVIL (to save amateur dSLRs), they will be found very very wanting when customers compare them to m4/3 offerings.
I agree..but that's how I see what Canikon will do. Cripple the DX MLC to avoid cannibalisation. They won't kill DX DSLRs till their backs are pushed to the wall. But then surprises do happen. Nikon seems to be indirectly hinting at DX reaching the end of the line. Looks like their money and R&D is majorly diverted to FX and MLCs now with DX being the step child. Either way its not good for that company unless DX MLCs pick up where DX DSLRs left off.

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Theres little point of a DX sensor MLC really. The lenses are going to be big/expensive still. So the size advantage offered by M4/3 wont count. And with the latest M4/3 cameras, in terms of performance, both Oly and Panasonic have come pretty close to the best DX sensor cameras.).
Yes they are pretty close to DX and that's the reason that Canikon are feeling the heat and creating differentiators in terms of introducing a new product(s) with a bigger sensor.

The Fuji XE1 and XPro 1 are APS-C compact cameras with great picture quality rivaling that of any DX DSLR. Digital sensor size does make a difference. So if Fuji & Canon can do it...Nikon would say why not us? Therefore I believe the upcoming fixed lens MLC and rumoured DX MLC

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So unless Canikon come up with a revolutionary sensor that is orders of magnitude better than the one in cameras like OM-D EM-5, I dont see the point of persisting with DX (but then, that kind of sensor would hurt them in their FX sales). The only reason to still persist with DX sensor could be savings because of economies of scale (for the same sensor is there in their DSLRs) but it is hardly beneficial for the end user (i.e. the consumer photographer). ).
I am not sure if Canikon see it that way. This is IMHO only. They would have to offer different product mixes for different consumer and price segments. Putting all your eggs in one basket (let's say FX & Nikon 1, if they eliminate DX entirely) is not the wisest thing to do especially in a challenging economic environment. Guess you saw that debate on Nikon's financials in the DSLR thread. Every single camera mfr has shown a drop in Sales..Oly is in trouble while Nikon and Canon are the only 2 companies that generated a profit from selling cameras/lenses. FX cameras are expensive to say the least and the lenses even more so. They will not attract too many buyers unless body prices drop but the cost of good glass offsets the decrease. And yes, cameras such as the D800 are fussy about getting the best possible glass so all in all it becomes a pretty heavy investment.

Where does that leave customers who want to upgrade from PNS or from Nikon 1 for that matter. Or what about people who do not want to lug around heavy DSLRs? I have one in my family (my wife) hence my recent Oly purchase.

Nikon is just creating an upgrade path for each customer segment below FX. Once you buy into FX, well, only the next gen latest-greatest camera (even when they get rid of the mirror and make it a MLC) will probably satisfy your requirements. Also look at it this way - they are also creating a marginal market by giving a light weight MLC body to FX users who want a backup camera..in much the same way as many FX DSLR owners have a DX DSLR as backup. Case in point is me as I don't always want to lug around a D4 and/or D800 for reasons other than weight. May be if Nikon had a viable MLC alternative other than the dud Nikon 1 I'd have purchased that instead of an Oly.


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If you ask me, both Canon and Nikon should join hands together and define a common ML system if they want to go for a DX ML system. This can help both of them to bridge the gap with M4/3 pretty fast. And I firmly believe that the era of DX SLR is coming to an end. Nobody seems to be investing in innovating in that space. Its just mindless churning of one body after another (cue the latest D5200. What does it offer that others dont?)

The fall of a giant like Nokia should tell these companies that leaderships in technology world could change hands very fast. If they are happy to rest on past laurels, one day and pretty soon, we'd be writing obituaries on these distinguished companies as well (Thom Hagen's personal views notwithstanding).
You are absolutely right that neither company should rest on its laurels and take customers for granted. I too strongly believe that the era of DX (or 1.5/1.6x) crop sensor DSLRs will slowly fade into history. But there are some years to go.

But frankly at this time I am more concerned about Oly sinking given mgmt turmoil, financial issues, attitude towards customers plus the lackadaisical attitude towards selling their products. See my 'rant' a few posts back.

Regardless of the great product(s) they have things are not looking good at the top line and bottom line for either Oly or Panny. These are the 2 pillars of the m4/3rd revolution and if one or God forbid both fall that cannot be good for the format.

Nikon and Canon have size on their side, at least for the moment. But their size advantage will vanish overnight if they take customers for granted as they seem to do nowadays.

Too many camera and imaging companies among them Minolta, Pentax & Kodak, have gone under due to rigidity and the unwillingness or even inability to change with times. Hope history doesn't repeat itself.

Last edited by R2D2 : 19th February 2013 at 16:11.
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Old 19th February 2013, 17:47   #862
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

R2D2 I do enjoy your rants really. If you ask me I'd feel more insecure with either Nikon or Canon than with Olympus! If lets say, you are hooked on Canon system and it goes down, all your investment in that goes down! Surely maybe lenses could be used on other cameras with adaptors but its a huge loss nonetheless (you wont have autofocus etc)

If tomorrow Olympus goes down, we will still have Panasonic to fall back on (and vice versa). Thats a huge comfort really. Some more companies have joined the m4/3 system recently. Kodak has announced a camera. For a consumer really there is little to complain . Surely pros have different requirements and m4/3 might not satisfy them ever, but rest of the 99% market can be satisfied with the m4/3 system. How many people do you think upgrade to FX from DX (the model on which Canikon want to build their entire system)?
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Old 19th February 2013, 18:30   #863
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
Theres little point of a DX sensor MLC really. The lenses are going to be big/expensive still. So the size advantage offered by M4/3 wont count. And with the latest M4/3 cameras, in terms of performance, both Oly and Panasonic have come pretty close to the best DX sensor cameras.

So unless Canikon come up with a revolutionary sensor that is orders of magnitude better than the one in cameras like OM-D EM-5, I dont see the point of persisting with DX (but then, that kind of sensor would hurt them in their FX sales). The only reason to still persist with DX sensor could be savings because of economies of scale (for the same sensor is there in their DSLRs) but it is hardly beneficial for the end user (i.e. the consumer photographer). If you ask me, both Canon and Nikon should join hands together and define a common ML system if they want to go for a DX ML system. This can help both of them to bridge the gap with M4/3 pretty fast. And I firmly believe that the era of DX SLR is coming to an end. Nobody seems to be investing in innovating in that space. Its just mindless churning of one body after another (cue the latest D5200. What does it offer that others dont?)
The DX F mount EVIL should have been the the mirrorless option for Nikon right from the start. Ok even if its not possible to have the F mount directly, still a DX sized sensor definitely should have made it to a Nikon MLC purely to stay competitive with other MLC offerings. I mean imagine a Nikon 1 with a Dx sized sensor and the Hybrid AF that it has.

I really dont understand their choice of the CX mount. I can understand that they did not want to canablize the DX DSLR sales etc etc.. but seriously, I mean if they are really going to compete with m4/3, the Fuji X, Sony Nex and the Canon M they really needed a bigger sensor. Also looking at this rumor and the proposed rumored road map, they are trying to get rid of the DX sensor on their DSLRs pretty soon. I guess we will see just 2-3 more iterations before DX DSLRs become a thing of the past atleast I dont see it as a primary entry level camera for either Nikon or Canon or may be I am wrong.

So assuming that this rumor of a bigger sensor DX Nikon is true, then what happens to the CX Nikon 1 ?

I dont see why the lenses of the DX MLC should be big? Nex and other APSC sensor MLCs have pretty small lenses unless they stick to the F mount.

As for the D5200, the new 24 MP Toshiba sensor Nikon is using in the D5200 is very good. I would say better than any other APSC or m4/3 sensor on the market yet. It also gets the 39 point D600 AF (I hope I am correct here).

Seriously my dream camera is not a D400 any more but rather a 24 MP DX Toshiba sensor weather sealed MLC with a better hybrid AF than the Nikon 1 with plenty of buttons and support for the Nikon F mount. But something has to be done about the laggy evfs for this to be a serious birding wildlife camera.

No I dont see Nikon and canon coming together no matter what

Canon could start support for the native EOS lenses and Nikon should start support for the F mount and suddenly m4/3, Nex and Fujifilm will have some serious competition.
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Old 19th February 2013, 18:33   #864
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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R2D2 I do enjoy your rants really. If you ask me I'd feel more insecure with either Nikon or Canon than with Olympus! If lets say, you are hooked on Canon system and it goes down, all your investment in that goes down!
Seeing financial position , overall market share , Share of revanues from high end flagship products versus low end and number of patents granted ( which in turn shows total R&D budget) I see this probability quite low compared to both Panasonic and Olympus folding Camera business. Do not ask to cite any sources they are available on net.

Sony has approx 23% of market share compared to Olympus's 28% where as Canon is at 9% with just one experimental lousy model. Nikon has 12.3 % share with smaller sensor.

EOS-M is where EPL-1 was few years back so if canon improves/releases in couple of year it should consolidate further.


One more point in whole of this discussion where APS-C is being written off the two biggest players on Horizon that is Sony and Samsung are being overlooked. Samsung is catching up fast and the releases from them are more frequent and impressive compared to lets say from Olympus. In mirrorless market they are where they were in TV or Mobiles in 2007. Overall market share in Camera ( not just EVIL) is around 10% for Samsung so critical mass is there.

Seeing the frequency of releases , updates , marketing muscles and track record in other segments Sony and Samung seem to have better future then Olympus.

So if these 4 ( Sony , Canon , Nikon , Samsung) do even little better they will rob the market share at expense of Olympus and Panasonic. Fan following or retro look of one product can not save a finencially troubled company hit by corporate scandles.

May be 5 years down the line people will thank Olympus for creating a new market catagory just as we thank Kodak for creating DSLR.

Last edited by amitk26 : 19th February 2013 at 18:37.
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Old 19th February 2013, 18:59   #865
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

Rant Warning On:

[Rant] I'd bet on a company that's profitable as it is more likely to stay alive for longer than one in financial problems.

Both Canon and Nikon are in that category as of now..but for how long given their attitude, plans and the economic scenario is the question.

I would hesitate to sink money for on camera/lens system, that is made by a company on shaky ground.

I've always been aware of Oly's issues but what set the alarm bells ringing is the feedback from the dealer and my own experience whilst buying the lenses. I am yet to meet even a single dealer who recommends buying an Olympus product. I spoke to 4, all major dealers of camera equipment in Pune, all authorised Oly retailers, one of whom actually did not want to acknowledge that he was authorised and smiled when I told him he was listed on Oly's website. Panny's products are difficult to find.

So a bitter past as in Oly's case is one thing but what bothers me is are they doing enough to dig themselves out of the morass they are in? I don't know. Both Samurai and Veeresh have heard the same feedback on Oly or experienced their attitudes in person.

Feedback from the dealers - It is either the issue with the company that comes to the foreground or the lack of support in Pune where I stay. Nikon & Canon are miles ahead of these bozos. Trust me, there are times when I have ordered something and it is sent by flight and I receive it in <48 hours all the way from Gurgaon, or sent via courier from Mumbai overnight where Nikon has set up a warehouse to serve this area of the country.

Oly? That dealer called Oly's office in Mumbai and had to impress upon them that the customer (me) was standing in front of him and insisted on a price and delivery date. It was only then that they provided the information.

I am not saying Nikon or Canon are perfect..far from it. But at least their sales guys have their brains in gear ready for action while Oly's staff was asleep.[/rant]

But as you rightly say others are joining up the m4/3rd format as it is like an open system. As for Kodak..well, another dead or brink of death organisation with very limited resources at hand struggling for survival. Given a choice between Oly, Panny and Kodak it would be the first 2 that would be the makers of choice for me. Kodak needs to stand up and show it has the wherewithal to survive.

As for customers shifting from DX to FX - there aren't too many much to the chagrin of the Canikon combine. Which is precisely why I feel killing DX without a firm alternative revenue stream from a DX MLC or equivalent will be like shooting itself in the foot. IMHO MLC and DX DSLR will co exist till one day they pull the plug on the DX DSLR range.

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Seeing financial position , overall market share , Share of revanues from high end flagship products versus low end and number of patents granted ( which in turn shows total R&D budget) I see this probability quite low compared to both Panasonic and Olympus folding Camera business. Do not ask to cite any sources they are available on net.

where APS-C is being written off the two biggest players on Horizon that is Sony and Samsung are being overlooked. Samsung is catching up fast and the releases from them are more frequent and impressive compared to lets say from Olympus. In mirrorless market they are where they were in TV or Mobiles in 2007. Overall market share in Camera ( not just EVIL) is around 10% for Samsung so critical mass is there.

Seeing the frequency of releases , updates , marketing muscles and track record in other segments Sony and Samung seem to have better future then Olympus.

So if these 4 ( Sony , Canon , Nikon , Samsung) do even little better they will rob the market share at expense of Olympus and Panasonic. Fan following or retro look of one product can not save a finencially troubled company hit by corporate scandles.
+1

Sony and especially Samsung could walk all over Panny and Oly in the camera business given time, money, the right products and of course the right attitude. Samsung may be a late comer to the show but boy have they shown their mettle in the mobile industry. If they can replicate that here in the camera business it would be a tough fight.

Last edited by R2D2 : 19th February 2013 at 19:13. Reason: Typo and added reply
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Old 19th February 2013, 19:07   #866
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EOS-M is where EPL-1 was few years back so if canon improves/releases in couple of year it should consolidate further.
Couple of years could be long time. It just means they are playing catch up instead of being leaders. Thats tough task and everything will have to click for success to happen.

Quote:
One more point in whole of this discussion where APS-C is being written off the two biggest players on Horizon that is Sony and Samsung are being overlooked. Samsung is catching up fast and the releases from them are more frequent and impressive compared to lets say from Olympus. In mirrorless market they are where they were in TV or Mobiles in 2007. Overall market share in Camera ( not just EVIL) is around 10% for Samsung so critical mass is there.

Seeing the frequency of releases , updates , marketing muscles and track record in other segments Sony and Samung seem to have better future then Olympus.

So if these 4 ( Sony , Canon , Nikon , Samsung) do even little better they will rob the market share at expense of Olympus and Panasonic. Fan following or retro look of one product can not save a finencially troubled company hit by corporate scandles.

May be 5 years down the line people will thank Olympus for creating a new market catagory just as we thank Kodak for creating DSLR.
I agree that Samsung could become the new Canon tomorrow. And that precisely is the danger with being in one system. Essentially Sony, Nikon, Canon, Samsung are going all alone, which means if something unnatural happens tomorrow to any of them (and if you are hooked to them) then its a risk. For me the m4/3 system is a nice risk mitigation for now. Someone would still survive. Now even Tamron et al have started producing lenses for this system. Its catching on. The cameras are becoming more capable, lenses are great (albeit limited) and its perfectly well suited for all the requirements of most people out there.

My thinking is all these companies are simply losing on consumer (PS) camera sales (to smartphones). But that phase should be over sooner or later. There will be some consolidation in the industry at some point. Only those with deep pockets like Samsung (if they are interested in this space?) or in right kind of system (like m4/3) will survive. If both Nikon and Canon survive then surely the likes of Sony and Samsung will have to die in this space. In any market only the leader makes money, the second one makes some/breaks even and others bleed and fade eventually.
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Old 19th February 2013, 19:22   #867
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Hope you guys know that Sony owns 11.5% of Olympus. In fact, they are the biggest shareholder of Olympus. This happened just few months back.
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Old 19th February 2013, 19:42   #868
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That's news Samurai..is this a cash injection via the equity route to resuscitate Oly? These 2 companies could do wonders if they shared and co-developed technologies especially m4/3rd sensors from Sony. Oly deserves to survive after having made gems like the OM-D and the PEN range.

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Old 19th February 2013, 19:47   #869
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That's news Samurai..is this a cash injection via the equity route to resuscitate Oly?
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Pr...28E/index.html

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These 2 companies could do wonders if they shared and co-developed technologies especially sensors from Sony. Oly deserves to survive after having made a gems like the OM-D and the PEN range.
OM-D does have Sony sensor, first Olympus camera to have Sony sensor.
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Old 19th February 2013, 21:58   #870
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

The biggest looser appears to be panasonic apart from a handful of film makers who buy the GH series ,the average joe isn't likely to buy a panasonic m4/3.They won't use a Sony sensor and the sole customer for Panasonic sensor is they themself.

Samsung may be a force to reckon with in future but currently their sensor are lagging behind.

As far as nikon and canon well they do have their loyal customers who would buy their EVIL cameras even if its just nearly as good as the competition.I have seen people in dpreview forums who are adamant on buying the EOS-M and frankly its worse then even a samsung NX cameras let alone the NEX and m4/3.The AF in native lenses itself is slow let alone with EF lenses.

The deal between Sony and Olympus which is relevant to this thread is that Sony would give their sensors and olympus would share its lens tech.So the two are unlikely to take each other out after all its a win win situation coincidentally Sony has updated their future E-mount lens line up with more lenses, just a few months after the deal.

Last edited by aim120 : 19th February 2013 at 22:03.
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