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Old 20th February 2013, 10:02   #871
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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The biggest looser appears to be panasonic apart from a handful of film makers who buy the GH series ,the average joe isn't likely to buy a panasonic m4/3.They won't use a Sony sensor and the sole customer for Panasonic sensor is they themself.

Samsung may be a force to reckon with in future but currently their sensor are lagging behind.

As far as nikon and canon well they do have their loyal customers who would buy their EVIL cameras even if its just nearly as good as the competition.I have seen people in dpreview forums who are adamant on buying the EOS-M and frankly its worse then even a samsung NX cameras let alone the NEX and m4/3.The AF in native lenses itself is slow let alone with EF lenses.

The deal between Sony and Olympus which is relevant to this thread is that Sony would give their sensors and olympus would share its lens tech.So the two are unlikely to take each other out after all its a win win situation coincidentally Sony has updated their future E-mount lens line up with more lenses, just a few months after the deal.
Not sure how much Sony will benefit from Olympus, given their ties with Zeiss. Having said that, Oly has been making some beautiful lenses for reasonable prices, so sony might start a line offering Olympus lenses for Sony E mount as well .
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Old 21st February 2013, 14:04   #872
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Having said that, Oly has been making some beautiful lenses for reasonable prices.
+1

And I got 2 of those beauties at prices that made me smile But that 75mm 1.8 is a gem. It's got bokeh like some of my fast Nikon primes but at a much lower price. Actually I am delighted.
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Old 21st February 2013, 14:52   #873
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Having said that, Oly has been making some beautiful lenses for reasonable prices
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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
And I got 2 of those beauties at prices that made me smile But that 75mm 1.8 is a gem. It's got bokeh like some of my fast Nikon primes but at a much lower price. Actually I am delighted.
They have been doing that for a very long time, since the 4/3 times. However, when I discussed that many years back, nobody took notice because of the Olympus tag.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/gadget...ml#post1334812 (The DSLR Thread)
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Old 21st February 2013, 15:06   #874
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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They have been doing that for a very long time, since the 4/3 times. However, when I discussed that many years back, nobody took notice because of the Olympus tag.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/gadget...ml#post1334812 (The DSLR Thread)
I've been following Oly since I was a school kid because of my general interest in cameras of all makes and sizes.

But in modern times i.e the 90s and 2000s Nikon and Canon became the biggest players in the Jap camera industry while other smaller companies either went under or were taken over by larger organisations. Like Sony/Konica/Minolta and Pentax/Ricoh/Hoya.

Why am I talking about Oly now? That's because Oly released the OM-D EM5. But there are negative perceptions they have to do battle with in the minds of customers & dealers and probably with the press. If they continue to release cameras like this and with improvements in attitudes that company has a future.

I found these clarifications interesting:

http://www.olympus-global.com/en/ir/data/tes/2013/
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Old 21st February 2013, 15:14   #875
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

I was talking about the lens quality, not market share.
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Old 21st February 2013, 15:32   #876
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I was talking about the lens quality, not market share.
My bad. Probably went off on a tangent there but what I was also talking about is why Oly started getting less and less 'mind space' with potential customers. They became too small in the overall scheme of things. Therefore people are not or were not aware of good products from Oly.

Yes I am sure Oly made some excellent lenses. Each Jap manufacturer has made and introduced some great glass - especially Minolta, Pentax and Olympus. They are all old timers in the industry along with Canon and Nikon.

I don't know much about the Ricoh and Fuji systems though I used to see their SLRs in the old days albeit rarely.

Last edited by R2D2 : 21st February 2013 at 15:34.
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Old 21st February 2013, 17:23   #877
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But that phase should be over sooner or later. There will be some consolidation in the industry at some point. Only those with deep pockets like Samsung (if they are interested in this space?) or in right kind of system (like m4/3) will survive.
Micro 4/3 is not the first common mount standard , Pentax had K mount which was royalty free and before that Pentax M42 screw mount there were scores of companies making lenses for M42 and later K mount but it did not stop Nikon and Canon. Third party lens makers like Sigma , Tamron and Zeius provided lenses in the mounts as per market demand.

So I do not see a common standard as any kind of insurence.


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Couple of years could be long time. It just means they are playing catch up instead of being leaders. Thats tough task and everything will have to click for success to happen.
Canon typically has very short release cycle for mass market products.
EOS-M II is rumored to be just around the corner so it will mean 1 year .

As I see only gripe about EOS-M is it's price point , due to price it gets compared to Oly OM-D and there is a general complain about the focus speed however if it was priced/compared to EPL-3 ( entry level of Oly at the same time) it would have sold like hotcakes.
I think it was deliberate on part of Canon to price it high.


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Samsung may be a force to reckon with in future but currently their sensor are lagging behind.
Check this out , This new Samsung sensor with depth data in RAW ( radar like function) can revolutionize the photography.

http://techcrunch.com/2012/02/29/new...nd-depth-data/

Combined with processing power available on the camera you can build N number of use cases as the software now knows what is forground and what is background. As of now the real problem of AF in mirrorless is due to the fact the it depends on the detection of boundaries based on contrast and there is no way to distinguish in 3D plane using contrast detection.
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Old 21st February 2013, 18:17   #878
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Micro 4/3 is not the first common mount standard , Pentax had K mount which was royalty free and before that Pentax M42 screw mount there were scores of companies making lenses for M42 and later K mount but it did not stop Nikon and Canon. Third party lens makers like Sigma , Tamron and Zeius provided lenses in the mounts as per market demand.

So I do not see a common standard as any kind of insurence.
The argument was with respect to a company suddenly folding up/going down! Seems far fetched but not entirely improbable, there are numerous examples like Lehman Bros, Worldcom, and more recently the likes of Blackberry & Nokia. In the hypothetical scenario if Canon folds up your entire gear is good only upto the time your canon body holds up. What'd you do with your lenses after that? In case Olympus folds up, I can still buy any m4/3 body from Panasonic and my m4/3 lenses will work seamlessly on that.

Admittedly very very far fetched argument (almost absurd sounding) but in technology world one never knows. The fall of almighty Nokia is a screaming example.

In fact I read somewhere that as a system, m4/3 is only second to full frame as far as number of lenses is concerned. There are much more m4/3 lenses than for Nikon DX or Canon APS-C lenses. M mount you cannot even compare at the moment.
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Old 21st February 2013, 19:34   #879
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
. In the hypothetical scenario if Canon folds up your entire gear is good only upto the time your canon body holds up. What'd you do with your lenses after that? In case Olympus folds up, I can still buy any m4/3 body from Panasonic and my m4/3 lenses will work seamlessly on that.
There are some 50 million EOS DSLRs out there in market one can buy anyone of them for considerable time. Canon is consistently at number 4 in terms of patent filing for last 5 years atleast so I assume someone will lap up the company just like Sony bought Minolta.

In any-case I will be more then happy if that Canon/Nikon folds up and people shift en-mass to Olympus/Panasonic and sell their long telephoto and full frame bodies at prices of FD lenses and bodies .

As of today whatever my heart says, my mind is sound and it prevents me to sell MFs & break FDs to spend on these TF lenses.

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Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
.

Admittedly very very far fetched argument (almost absurd sounding) but in technology world one never knows. The fall of almighty Nokia is a screaming example.
Nokia is rather Sad story and its failure lies in fact the certain individual who was 5th largest shareholder in MS became CEO who "burned the platform" by sending burning platform mail one fine day.

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In fact I read somewhere that as a system, m4/3 is only second to full frame as far as number of lenses is concerned. There are much more m4/3 lenses than for Nikon DX or Canon APS-C lenses. M mount you cannot even compare at the moment.
All full frame lenses work on APS-C bodies and there is no significant size/weight advantage in cropped frame lenses so I do not see any merit in this comparison.

IIRC There were around 179 first party lenses ( EF / EF-S) excluding 3ed party from Samyang/tamron/sigma etc.

There are only 10 lenses marked as EF-S excluding 4 Tiltshifts and 1 MP-E5 which are not marked as EF/EF-S.

Last edited by amitk26 : 21st February 2013 at 19:36.
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Old 21st February 2013, 20:13   #880
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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In case Olympus folds up, I can still buy any m4/3 body from Panasonic and my m4/3 lenses will work seamlessly on that.

WARNING! This going to go a bit offtopic as it pertains to financials Mods - again this is a one off post from my side.

Going by figures, Panasonic is on even shakier ground than Oly. It posted a $9 billion loss for the 3 quarters ended 31/12.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/02/03/panasonic-q3-2012/

By comparison Oly generated profit as an enterprise of 7.6 bilion Yen but its imaging division was in losses with the loss expected to grow from 10.7 billion Yen to 16 billion Yen by 31/3. Oly will post a contraction of 18.5% YoY on its Imagin division sales and a 5.2% contraction in income.

http://www.olympus-global.com/en/ir/data/brief/2013/

Here's an post from Oly about the misdeeds of its mgmt and its steps to regain trust.

http://www.olympus-global.com/en/confidence/

So all is not well in Panny and Oly land.

Nikon and Canon by comparison are well off. As amitk26 rightly points out, with millions of lenses and bodies in circulation, a well established system, support by software makers and 3rd party accessory makers, no Nikon/Canon owner is going to left wanting for a body for almost any need even if the companies shut shop today.

Of course nobody can say anything about the future but take a moment to reflect on who is more vulnerable as corporate entities? Profit making Canikon or loss making Panny/Oly?

The m4/3rd format is a young child born in 2008. Oly and Panny are the creators/inventors/parents and pillars of the system. If they go this format may die or even more drastically they could kill it if losses continue as a part of corp rationalisation.

I too have invested a pretty substantial sum in this m4/3rds system. Here's hoping they survive and prosper with their great products hitting the mark, with the right strategies and customer focus. Good luck to them!
Attached Thumbnails
Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras-oly-financials.jpg  

Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras-oly-financials2.jpg  


Last edited by R2D2 : 21st February 2013 at 20:17.
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Old 21st February 2013, 23:55   #881
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

Wow, you guys take your camera system really seriously

Have faith in god, there will always be a camera for you when you need it.
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Old 25th February 2013, 18:59   #882
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Just got a new RRS Arca-Swiss camera plate for the Oly. Beautiful snug fit. RRS products are of superb quality.

This actually belongs to the DSLR thread. But I wouldn't want to add another post there as it breaks the continuity. The Oly's plate came in with the RRS foot replacements for my new lenses. This was necessary to fit them on the Wimberley gimbal head or RRS ball head which use Arca Swiss clamps. Those Nikon factory fitted lens feet aren't optimally designed. CoG is high and in case of the 200 F/2 the foot is like a stub about 2.5" long simply too short making it difficult to fix on a QR plate or even hand hold because the gap between the foot and lens barrel is minimal just about 1.5 cm. Imagine a 3 Kg front heavy lens being fixed with only one 3/8" screw!

Fixing an Arca Swiss " lens plate" to the any of the lenses' factory foot only makes it worse. Seriously Nikon needs to go back to the drawing board here. Canon's lens feet are far better designed.

Last edited by R2D2 : 25th February 2013 at 19:01.
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Old 27th February 2013, 20:15   #883
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

Friends, had been in the dilemma for a bit and have decided to to pick Olympus OM-D EM-5.

Any pointers on where to buy from?

According to my research, Flipkart is offering it for INR 72k while the showroom in Delhi is asking for INR 71k (if paid in cash). Naaptol has got the best price INR 65k-odd but have mixed up between the lens and body in their catalogue. Checked with their customer care and till the time the anomaly is fixed, despite paying 65k, they would be sending only the lens which retails at 22k approximately

I can buy in Delhi/NCR or in Bangalore if it comes to buying from a physical retail store. Though am not averse to buying online.

Inputs would be highly appreciated!
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Old 27th February 2013, 21:02   #884
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Any pointers on where to buy from?

According to my research, Flipkart is offering it for INR 72k while the showroom in Delhi is asking for INR 71k (if paid in cash). Naaptol has got the best price INR 65k-odd but have mixed up between the lens and body in their catalogue. Checked with their customer care and till the time the anomaly is fixed, despite paying 65k, they would be sending only the lens which retails at 22k approximately

I can buy in Delhi/NCR or in Bangalore if it comes to buying from a physical retail store. Though am not averse to buying online.

Inputs would be highly appreciated!
This is arguably the best mirrorless camera you can get today.

I got the Olympus OM-D EM5 with the 12-50mm kit lens for 68K which is a bit less than what you have mentioned. I'd suggest buying it locally in Delhi or BLR (your choice). You may be able get the colour of your choice & at a lower price.

I got the silver/black rather accidently even though I wanted the black body, but realised that it is the better choice and it turned out well. The silver/black body goes well with either a black or silver lens.

Last edited by R2D2 : 27th February 2013 at 21:03.
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Old 27th February 2013, 21:31   #885
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Friends, had been in the dilemma for a bit and have decided to to pick Olympus OM-D EM-5.

Any pointers on where to buy from?

Cheapest is to buy from camshot.in. They have listed it for 68k on their site and they are dependable. I bought my 45mm from them.

Another option is zoomin. Theres a 9% offer coupon right now. It will cost you around 70k from them. they also throw you some freebies like photo mugs and albums.

Buy the 45mm lens also if you go for the om-d. I'd suggest, if possible, get the body only and buy the 45mm and another wider prime like 17mm f2.8 (if you are on budget) or Panasonic 14mm. Skip the kit lens. It does not do justice to the camera.

By the way, I'd advise you to look at Sony Nex-6 also. Its cheaper (50k vs 70k for the oly), has a bigger size sensor (DX size) and is very capable camera. I'd buy the Sony instead of the Oly if i was in the market for a mirrorless today.

Last edited by joslicx : 27th February 2013 at 21:34.
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