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Old 11th January 2011, 16:38   #76
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

DLUX 3 or 5 is NOT just similar to Panasonic LX 3 or 5.

THEY ARE EXACTLY SAME.

As I said - its all about snobbery. Mine is more elite than yours.

The only advantage they offer over regular P&S is usually:
1. 1 stop advantage in aperture
2. 1/3 to 2/3 stop advantage in ISO

Is it really going to make that much difference in your photos?
And you lose on interchangeable lens (compared to EVIL)
Higher clarity at all ISO (compared to EVIL)
More opti zoom (compared to regular P&S)
Lighter and smaller (compared to regular P&S)

Last edited by alpha1 : 11th January 2011 at 16:42.
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Old 12th January 2011, 00:36   #77
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Default Re: The DSLR Thread

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Originally Posted by HellwratH View Post
And another advantage of the m 4/3rds is the EVF. I know a lot of discussion hasn't happened on it, but it's one of the must have things. Especially, for a guy like me who shoots with old legacy lenses. It "bumps" up the display even in very low light or when the aperture is stopped down.
I am loving this , few months ago I posted about virtues of live view and gave a very similar use case taking example of shooting in low light condition and all the regulars here were trashing that. On how live view is a gimmick may be useful in macro yada yada.. but what is true in context of EVIL was true for DSLR as well.
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Old 12th January 2011, 01:01   #78
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Default Re: The DSLR Thread

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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
I am loving this , few months ago I posted about virtues of live view and gave a very similar use case taking example of shooting in low light condition and all the regulars here were trashing that. On how live view is a gimmick may be useful in macro yada yada.. but what is true in context of EVIL was true for DSLR as well.
I am not sure which conversation/thread you are referring to, but when I speak about EVF here, I am talking about the actual view finder and not the LCD display at the back . The other reason I love EVF is for the fact that I don't have to depend on LCD because I shoot macros hand held most of the time. And because of the EVF, I can zoom in and see what is in focus and what isn't, which I doubt I'll ever do with an LCD screen at the back. It comes down to personal preference I guess. The reason I'd still not use live view (LCD display) for low light shots is the imbalance it causes and an the unbearable pain it creates in my arm :P. And yes, live view (the lcd display) is anyday useful for macro and landscape (mounted on a tripod), but not sure how useful it can be for action shots.
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Old 12th January 2011, 08:20   #79
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Default Re: The DSLR Thread

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Originally Posted by HellwratH View Post
I am not sure which conversation/thread you are referring to, but when I speak about EVF here, I am talking about the actual view finder and not the LCD display at the back . The other reason I love EVF is for the fact that I don't have to depend on LCD because I shoot macros hand held most of the time. And because of the EVF, I can zoom in and see what is in focus and what isn't, which I doubt I'll ever do with an LCD screen at the back. It comes down to personal preference I guess. The reason I'd still not use live view (LCD display) for low light shots is the imbalance it causes and an
Quite strange you are ok to place your eye on an lcd but a bigger LCD with essantialy same features placed more naturally at normal viewing distance is painful, each to his own,I would say years of training on DSLR at work
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Old 12th January 2011, 09:16   #80
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Default Re: The DSLR Thread

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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Quite strange you are ok to place your eye on an lcd but a bigger LCD with essantialy same features placed more naturally at normal viewing distance is painful, each to his own,I would say years of training on DSLR at work
Err, and your point is? . And yes, I'm still waiting to see an "action" shot (a bird/bee in flight? perhaps) taken with just the use of live view (LCD screen). I guess, most of us here want to talk or advise people just by reading up and not out of experience. And if this discussion is just going to be about "I told you so!", so be it. And I wish what you said was true (about the years of DSLR training part). If it was, I might have been out shooting than trying to figure out "what mode to use when you spot a crow that is a km away with this kind of lighting and this aperture and this shutter speed with this ISO" .

P.S: Why would I want to use the view finder at the eye level and not keep it a meter away from me? The answer:

Prevent dSLR Camera Shake With These 3 Techniques

And just in case, if context is not clear, I am referring to point (A).

And mods, please delete any content that you think may be inappropriate in my reply. My point was to highlight other advantages of EVIL cameras and mainly the EVF and how it may help different shooting styles.
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Old 12th January 2011, 09:50   #81
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by HellwratH View Post
Err, and your point is? . And yes, I'm still waiting to see an "action" shot (a bird/bee in flight? perhaps) taken with just the use of live view (LCD screen). I guess, most of us here want to talk or advise people just by reading up and not out of experience. And if this discussion is just going to be about "I told you so!"

Prevent dSLR Camera Shake With These 3 Techniques

And just in case, if context is not clear, I am referring to point (A).

And mods, please delete any content that you think may be inappropriate in my reply. My point was to highlight other advantages of EVIL cameras and mainly the EVF and how it may help different shooting styles.
There are two points first you talked of EVF brightening up the scene in low light and that advantage is there with live view secondly about keeping hands a meter away I do not see any strict need to do that unless elbows have serious arthritis and hands can not be kept near to body.

Lots of assumptions in your post though , Will post few images tonight if I get time.

Point is I posted something out of my personal experience which is not given in any book or website , So clearly people who trashed this were one who never used a live view , They say action shots should not be taken with live view because focusing is slow etc but this difference matters if you have a really fast AF motor like Canon USM on lenses with DC motor or for MF lenses Contrast detect AF is still quite fast. So for most people who use crappy budget telephoto lenses which are not L category this holds true. And except a select few people on this forum most of us who regularly post questions to choose between lenses such as Sigma 70-300 ,Tamron 70-300, Canon 55-250 IS or 75-300 fall in this category who will never ever have problem with slowness of AF in live view in practical scenarios because their lens focus motors are even slower. They read up reviewers who play with white lenses or one with red rings and apply same to black ones.

About stabilizing the camera against shake , Stability is provided by hands and perhaps hands close to chest are more stable then near to face purely my personal opinion though.

Last edited by amitk26 : 12th January 2011 at 09:58.
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Old 12th January 2011, 10:10   #82
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
There are two points first you talked of EVF brightening up the scene in low light and that advantage is there with live view secondly about keeping hands a meter away I do not see any strict need to do that unless elbows have serious arthritis and hands can not be kept near to body.

Lots of assumptions in your post though , Will post few images tonight if I get time.

Point is I posted something out of my personal experience which is not given in any book or website , So clearly people who trashed this were one who never used a live view , They say action shots should not be taken with live view because focusing is slow etc but this difference matters if you have a really fast AF motor like Canon USM on lenses with DC motor or for MF lenses Contrast detect AF is still quite fast. So for most people who use crappy budget telephoto lenses which are not L category this holds true. And except a select few people on this forum most of us who regularly post questions to choose between lenses such as Sigma 70-300 ,Tamron 70-300, Canon 55-250 IS or 75-300 fall in this category who will never ever have problem with slowness of AF in live view in practical scenarios because their lens focus motors are even slower. They read up reviewers who play with white lenses or one with red rings and apply same to black ones.

About stabilizing the camera against shake , Stability is provided by hands and perhaps hands close to chest are more stable then near to face purely my personal opinion though.
Amit, I agree with most of what you said. Infact when I got my the MF lenses I headed to test the 150 and 200mm (EFL of 300mm and 400mm) on seagulls and ducks who are okay with us shooting as long as someone's feeding them. I found the EVF pretty useful there and at the same time I did try using the LCD too and I found it really cumbersome. Two reasons, the lens was way heavier than the body so when I held it away from the body, there was a bit of "droop" which I was able to control when I held the camera against my eye. And the other was the BIF (birds in flight), I couldn't pan as fast I'd like to with the arm extended out. Hence, my preference to shoot with the EVF than the LCD. But I doubt I'll be doing any bird photography at all with this setup, it was mainly acquired for macro and I have to work on getting the achromatic diopters. I'll post a couple of photos on the non-auto image thread with this setup, the nikon 75-150mm E series blew me away by it's sharpness!
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Old 12th January 2011, 12:25   #83
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

One question - since EVF is a reconstructed view - isn't it technically same as the live view?

The only difference I think will be of whether you prefer looking via an "eyepiece", or you prefer looking at a large flat screen.

The image is the same - reconstructed from the light that is falling on the CMOS/CCD.

###

The contrast based focus detection works slow in low lighting, how does the phase/rangefinding focussing work in similar conditions?

Last edited by alpha1 : 12th January 2011 at 12:27.
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Old 12th January 2011, 12:44   #84
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

[quote=alpha1;2206781]One question - since EVF is a reconstructed view - isn't it technically same as the live view?

The only difference I think will be of whether you prefer looking via an "eyepiece", or you prefer looking at a large flat screen.

The image is the same - reconstructed from the light that is falling on the CMOS/CCD.

###
[quote=alpha1;2206781]
I share the same understanding so live view or EVF is essentially the same except the presentation involved and matter of personal choice.
However I do not own an EVIL camera myself and just tried Sony NEX 3 for short time so can not say with authority. waiting from some owners comment.
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Old 12th January 2011, 12:45   #85
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

[quote=alpha1;2206781]One question - since EVF is a reconstructed view - isn't it technically same as the live view?

The only difference I think will be of whether you prefer looking via an "eyepiece", or you prefer looking at a large flat screen.

The image is the same - reconstructed from the light that is falling on the CMOS/CCD.

###
[quote=alpha1;2206781]
I share the same understanding so live view or EVF is essentially the same except the presentation involved and matter of personal choice.
However I do not own an EVIL camera myself so can not say with authority. waiting from some owners comment.
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Old 14th January 2011, 12:50   #86
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Plus I like the look on their face when i say its a DSLR not a P&S
But it is not. It is an interchangeable lens camera with a larger sensor than that of a compact. But technically, it is not a DSLR. The EVF if any is still an EVF not a true optical viewfinder.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
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Old 14th January 2011, 16:38   #87
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

I feel it is time some of the older terms are put out to pasture.

In photography/image capability, EVIL cameras are in the same league as dSLRs. When Sankar said it is a dSLR and not a P&S, he was referring to ability, and not about the reflex mirror. Heck, how many dSLR users these days know anything about the mirror, or whether it is pentamirror or pentaprism they have in their camera?

EVIL is the successor of dSLR, just like dSLR was the successor of SLR.
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Old 15th January 2011, 22:04   #88
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
I feel it is time some of the older terms are put out to pasture.

In photography/image capability, EVIL cameras are in the same league as dSLRs. When Sankar said it is a dSLR and not a P&S, he was referring to ability, and not about the reflex mirror. Heck, how many dSLR users these days know anything about the mirror, or whether it is pentamirror or pentaprism they have in their camera?

EVIL is the successor of dSLR, just like dSLR was the successor of SLR.
Interesting thoughts.

In terms of picture quality I think that it is safe to say that EVIL cameras are in the same league as DSLRs. But the term DSLR means one thing and that cannot be changed. I would rather have it that people start using the term EVIL more. So if Sankar says that it is an EVIL camera, I think a far more interesting conversation would ensue.

EVIL cameras are an evolution of the DSLR, but to say that they are the successors of DSLRs I think is a bit premature.
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Old 16th January 2011, 09:43   #89
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

@Samurai,

I saw your site Samurai's Photos | SmugMug
Excellent pics, Do you have any here which were shot on the Oly E PL1 ?

-Fillmore
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Old 16th January 2011, 17:09   #90
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

Thanks Fillmore. No, I am yet to take any serious photographs with PL1. Still waiting for the 9-18mm lens to fall into my hands.
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