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Old 28th May 2013, 22:50   #1021
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Default Re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

An SR4 rumor:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-t...-come-in-2014/

I guess Sony wants to capture a share of the Canikon pro market, but I feel that there is no consistency in what Sony offers. They started with DSLR, then with SLT, later on the NEX and now A mount mirrorless. The Canikons have a clear model separation set (4 letter, 3 letter, 2 letter and 1 letter models) that mean something for the buyers. Without such a clarity for the buyers, it will be hard path for Sony no matter what ever camera they launch. But for now, it seems Sony is planning big on the mirrorless market where there are no good competitors or market leaders.

I wouldn't have bought the NEX 6 if it did not have the small size it is. I'm however wondering how big would the mirrorless version of the A mount from Sony would be. Nevertheless, 2014 will definitely be an exciting year.

Last edited by joe1980 : 28th May 2013 at 22:52.
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Old 28th May 2013, 23:22   #1022
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Based on the SR post, it looks like Sony is doing away with the SLT. It probably was a temporary/stop gap measure till Sony figured out what to do with their line. IMO SLT was doomed to fail. Typical Sony, experimenting at the customer's expense.

BTW, I have experience with many of Sony's proprietary technologies starting with a Betamax video recorder in the early 1980s, MD & DAT recorders in the 90s, memory stick and ATRAC in the 2000s. Technology leading products, unfortunately market failures in the long run. Unfortunately it is the customer who pays the price.

So glad my bro struck the A99 off his camera wish list. He's considering only Canon now.
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Old 29th May 2013, 00:17   #1023
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Based on the SR post, it looks like Sony is doing away with the SLT. It probably was a temporary/stop gap measure till Sony figured out what to do with their line. IMO SLT was doomed to fail. Typical Sony, experimenting at the customer's expense.

BTW, I have experience with many of Sony's proprietary technologies starting with a Betamax video recorder in the early 1980s, MD & DAT recorders in the 90s, memory stick and ATRAC in the 2000s. Technology leading products, unfortunately market failures in the long run. Unfortunately it is the customer who pays the price.

So glad my bro struck the A99 off his camera wish list. He's considering only Canon now.
How is the SLT doomed to fail or even considered a failure ? .If SLT production is stopped it won't stop people from using their current SLT cameras or buying more A-mount lenses.
Its because of SLT tech that I and lakhs of other customers bought them,if they had launched the same boring old conventional DSLR there is no way i would have bought a Sony DSLR.I mean why should i since there is already a nikon and canon.

When Sony launched the first SLT, the A33 and A55 in 2010 they also simultaneously launched A560 and A580 which were conventional DSLR cameras and not so surprisingly had minuscule sales compared to the sales of the SLT cameras which out sold them by a big big big margin.Its because of SLT camera that dpreview awarded them a Gold rating many times over and magazines awarded them as camera of the year and Time magazine mentioned them as one of the great invention of the that year or was it that decade.

Everyone knew that SLT was a stop go tech including myself.As of today ON-Sensor PDAF is no match compared to dedicated PDAF sensor.So Sony has to have come up with a breakthrough for them to ditch the SLT ,otherwise it will be a fatal mistake.But since i know that Sony has best on sensor PDAF performance currently in a large sensor ,i wouldn't be surprised if their upcoming mirrorless A mount cameras has a fast on sensor PDAF that could match the current dedicated PDAF sensor.

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Old 29th May 2013, 00:32   #1024
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An SR4 rumor:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-t...-come-in-2014/

I guess Sony wants to capture a share of the Canikon pro market, but I feel that there is no consistency in what Sony offers. They started with DSLR, then with SLT, later on the NEX and now A mount mirrorless. The Canikons have a clear model separation set (4 letter, 3 letter, 2 letter and 1 letter models) that mean something for the buyers. Without such a clarity for the buyers, it will be hard path for Sony no matter what ever camera they launch. But for now, it seems Sony is planning big on the mirrorless market where there are no good competitors or market leaders.

I wouldn't have bought the NEX 6 if it did not have the small size it is. I'm however wondering how big would the mirrorless version of the A mount from Sony would be. Nevertheless, 2014 will definitely be an exciting year.
They started first with DSLR and the first product the A100 was mostly just a minolta camera with a Sony sensor,battery and a badge.Their FF A900 and A850 did okay since they where a bargain compared to the Nikon and Canon.

But there sales really picked up only after they launched the SLT cameras,before that Sony DSLR would be the last in ones shopping list after canikon and pentax.

Canikon has so much existing customers that they itself are enough,since they won't change to another system.
What Sony's stradegy is to wow the new customers like me who don't have any canikon gear,so they have to offer something different and innovative which the SLT did and to some extent the NEX which was the worlds smallest APS-C sensor based ILC camera at the time of the launch and i believe they still are.

With a full frame sensor they can make those On-Sensor PDAF pixels bigger,so it should be better then APS-C cameras with On-Sensor PDAF.
But since we are talking about the PRO market,there On-Sensor PDAF better be a big improvement compared to the dedicated one in A99.
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Old 29th May 2013, 01:43   #1025
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How is the SLT doomed to fail or even considered a failure ? .If SLT production is stopped it won't stop people from using their current SLT cameras or buying more A-mount lenses.

Discontinuing a technology doesn't mean owners cannot continue using products that they already own. They can..into the foreseeable future as long as Sony chooses to support them with parts and service.

I am not a Johnny-come-lately to the world of Sony. My family and I have owned several Sony products starting over 30 years ago some of which I referenced in my other posts. All of those products were technologically superior when compared to the products of their time. But the common factor being they were commercially unsuccessful and subsequently discontinued. Not just because of low adoption of that technology but also because of other reasons mainly to do with pricing, format wars, time to market among other factors.

Given my experience I held off from buying a HD video player till the Blu Ray (Sony is one of the BR Association members) and HD DVD (headed by Toshiba) format war was convincingly won by Blu Ray in circa 2008.

As for SLT being a potential failure over the long term - this is has long been my view to the extent that I advised my brother NEVER to go in for an SLT (the A99 he had his eyes on). Again it is not because of the tech - SLTs are unique and have advantages in their own ways, and the A99 is certainly a good/v good camera when seen against other offerings.

But my advice will remain regardless of what kind of awards it i.e. the camera or the technology wins. The A99 costs a substantial amount of money (in lakhs) and when combined with lenses even more so. I would prefer that my brother invest in a system that has a wider user base, accessories and software support.

There's no bias either for or against any particular system but having been left with multiple Sony products whose technology and formats turned into junk far too often for my liking, I am extremely wary about their products.

Now coming back to the future of SLTs, if the Sony Alpha rumours site is to be believe Sony itself is doing away with the SLT.

In light of this (yet unsubstantiated) report how can one consider Sony's SLT range, introduced pretty recently about 3 years ago in 2010, a success? Chalk up yet another instance of Sony shafting the customer!

Here's another report -

http://petapixel.com/2013/04/29/sony...be-going-away/

I am not surprised. It was a technology that was neither here nor there. My post contained a set of thoughts based on what I read there. Sony's is now being pressured to get out of the electronics market as you may have read in that NYT article. Such stories about former Jap giants like Sony, Panasonic, Olympus et al struggling to get their finances back into the black gets me concerned.

All this is IMHO only please.

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Old 30th May 2013, 12:42   #1026
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I don't see people discussing much about Samsung MILC here, lenses are not available in India?
There is a fantastic deal with Samsung NX1000 MILC, but I can already see that there is a huge lack of lenses.

The Samsung India website, appallingly, doesn't even have a page for the lenses!
What jokers!

Last edited by alpha1 : 30th May 2013 at 12:43.
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Old 30th May 2013, 20:37   #1027
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There is a fantastic deal with Samsung NX1000 MILC, but I can already see that there is a huge lack of lenses.

The Samsung India website, appallingly, doesn't even have a page for the lenses!
What jokers!
Don't get taken in by that deal on the Sammy camera just yet.

Samsung may have the wherewithal to make a good camera given their consumer electronics genes. But making good lenses is a different ball game altogether.

The only MLC companies I see making an effort in introducing good lenses are Fuji and Olympus followed by Panasonic. Some of Fuji's offerings are mostly good enough to compete with Leica. Deliberately done of course at a fraction of the price. They see themselves as the poor man's Leica. And I agree. The attention to detail (metal construction, engraved markings) is such that they cannot be seen even in some of Nikon's high end lenses. Fují's lenses are top performers and pretty expensive. While Oly compromises on the construction but thankfully offers great optics.
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Old 31st May 2013, 11:37   #1028
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Don't get taken in by that deal on the Sammy camera just yet.

Samsung may have the wherewithal to make a good camera given their consumer electronics genes. But making good lenses is a different ball game altogether.

The only MLC companies I see making an effort in introducing good lenses are Fuji and Olympus followed by Panasonic. Some of Fuji's offerings are mostly good enough to compete with Leica. Deliberately done of course at a fraction of the price. They see themselves as the poor man's Leica. And I agree. The attention to detail (metal construction, engraved markings) is such that they cannot be seen even in some of Nikon's high end lenses. Fují's lenses are top performers and pretty expensive. While Oly compromises on the construction but thankfully offers great optics.
Yes but there is another angle to it.
The price for Sammy come to be much much less than a high spec compact (which I was actually looking out for). For less price if I get same picture quality (because I will use Sammy as "fixed lens") - isn't it a fine deal?
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Old 31st May 2013, 12:09   #1029
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For less price if I get same picture quality (because I will use Sammy as "fixed lens") - isn't it a fine deal?
Yes it is a fine deal, as you always intend to keep a single lens and stick to Samsung. No issues with that. I used Sony P&S and film SLRs for several years before I had mustered the courage and money to buy a DSLR.

But I was looking at your comment in a slightly larger perspective with a system that has the potential to grow. The gear upgrade itch eventually happens to most of us.
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Old 31st May 2013, 12:42   #1030
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Yes it is a fine deal, as you always intend to keep a single lens and stick to Samsung. No issues with that. I used Sony P&S and film SLRs for several years before I had mustered the courage and money to buy a DSLR.

But I was looking at your comment in a slightly larger perspective with a system that has the potential to grow. The gear upgrade itch eventually happens to most of us.
I understand. I have seen this G.A.S. with guitars and processors, FX, pedals and amps with a lot of my friends. Luckily, I seem to be immune to it

But frankly, what would be the business sense in introducing a single model in India (but not the others), and no extra lenses by Samsung. Doesn't it look like a pilot study to test the waters here?
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Old 31st May 2013, 19:58   #1031
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Luckily, I seem to be immune to it
Lucky you mate. Seriously, I kid you not.

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But frankly, what would be the business sense in introducing a single model in India (but not the others), and no extra lenses by Samsung. Doesn't it look like a pilot study to test the waters here?
I agree with your point - yes it does look like they are testing the waters.

I am a bit wary when consumer electronics giants get their fingers into every pie on Earth. Imaging & optics are highly specialised fields.

But 5 years ago if someone had told me Samsung would whip both Nokia and Apple in the mobile marketplace I'd have laughed at the "preposterous" idea. But then Sammy has shown it is possible. Kudos to them.

Ah well, I guess if you have deep pockets every specialisation can be obtained over time via takeovers, hiring relevant experts etc. etc.
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Old 31st May 2013, 20:01   #1032
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.

Ah well, I guess if you have deep pockets every specialisation can be obtained over time via takeovers, hiring relevant experts etc. etc.
Well I guess they can always buy one of the troubled ones. They have the cash to do so.

I seriously believe Samsung is gonna buy one of Olympus or Panasonic!
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Old 2nd June 2013, 12:30   #1033
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I know most of you who post here have a mirrorless system. Do you ever shoot macro? If yes could you please let me know what camera you use and with what lenses do you take your macro shots? I guess at present none of the mirrorless cameras released so far have a macro lens option in the 85 to 120mm focal length range. So I was just curios to know what you guys do for your macro photography.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search...428+4099560882

The link above shows the available macro lens options that can be used natively with the cameras for which they are intended for. The highest focal length is from the Fuji which offers 60mm which I guess is still not enough.

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Old 3rd June 2013, 00:45   #1034
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The highest focal length is from the Fuji which offers 60mm which I guess is still not enough.
Really, why? What kind of experience tells you that 60mm, which is actually 120mm effective, is not good enough? What is your prior experience with macro lenses, that makes you say so?

I had 50mm macro (effective 100m) which was pretty good. But, I sold it now.

However, the kit lens of OM-D also happens to be a macro lens. This is what it can do. This is an US quarter. And I know 60mm lens can do lot better.

100% crop.

Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras-p6031133.jpg

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Old 3rd June 2013, 03:19   #1035
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Really, why? What kind of experience tells you that 60mm, which is actually 120mm effective, is not good enough? What is your prior experience with macro lenses, that makes you say so?
I learnt from several photography tutorials online that with a 105mm focal length, one gets to have a good working distance from the subject. I played with my friends Sigma 60mm and 90mm macro lens on a Canon 40D. I liked working with the 90mm lens as I could focus from a little bit farther to my subject. That makes me think that I need a macro lens between 85 and 105mm. I do not want to convert the 60mm equivalent or whatsoever and convince myself that this would give a 120mm effective on a FF. I'm not shooting on a FF, so that does not apply to me. I might be wrong, but after trying out those two lenses, I find the 90mm or even higher to be a good option for me.

Last edited by joe1980 : 3rd June 2013 at 03:21.
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