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Old 18th January 2011, 12:43   #106
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by typeOnegative View Post
True.



Yes. And it should be 'pentaprism / pentamirror'.



No. Because there have been and may still be some fixed lens DSLRs. I have a super zoom (HS10) that gives me phenomenal manual control. Making sensor size a subjective aspect, should I go about calling my camera a DSLR? It even looks like one. Heh heh.



Agreed to a point. However, if one cannot phase out an older technology because of the limitations of a newer one, then how is the older technology redundant?



How does this count in the discussion? Anyway,

The EVF on an EVIL camera always will have some limitations. For one it is not true rendering and secondly there is a bit of lag always. Of course advancements will perfect this over time. For me the biggest sore point about the EVF is that I am too used to composing with the camera held closely to my face. And the current crop of accessorized EVFs are too flimsy for me. The fact is that a DSLR is a DSLR and an EVIL camera is an EVIL camera. On one hand we call people who do not know enough about cars ignorant aam janta and on the other hand we are perpetuating similar ignorance in another field even though we know better.

I am not denigrating/criticizing the EVIL camera, I am only stating that it is not a DSLR. And I may buy one too if I am convinced that it helps me. I think that both technologies may co-exist for a while and one may die-off depending on market forces.
Thats means you are not taking the spirit of DSLR, rather confining the term to a technical definition.

Fine.

Then we shall use the term EVIL from now on.


Regarding the pentaprism/mirror - you tell me why is it necessary in any camera? Why was it even invented (in the film era)?
... and now why should the same be required in a digital camera?
You will realize what redundancy I was talking about.



And as an EVIL advocate I would reply to EVF/LCD vs Optical viewfinder:
The picture, that you are taking via camera - is it what your eyes see via the lens, or is it the image falling on the CCD/CMOS sensor?
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Old 18th January 2011, 13:34   #107
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

From reviews of Panasonic GH2 which does not have a mirror/prism, so has only EVF, it appears that it focuses faster than traditional "phase detect" powered DSLRs.
Really phenomenal camera. It even has 4x Digital video zoom without any upscaling required. This is true zoom, as the camera used the center part of the sensor, unlike Canon where every third pixel is used.
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Old 18th January 2011, 13:34   #108
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
Thats means you are not taking the spirit of DSLR, rather confining the term to a technical definition.
Fine.
Then we shall use the term EVIL from now on.
Now you get it!


Quote:
Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
Regarding the pentaprism/mirror - you tell me why is it necessary in any camera? Why was it even invented (in the film era)?
... and now why should the same be required in a digital camera?
You will realize what redundancy I was talking about.
It is not necessary. But it is there and I for one do not find it unnecessary. It's like saying why should one have stick shift when there is an Auto-transmission option available?

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Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
And as an EVIL advocate I would reply to EVF/LCD vs Optical viewfinder:
The picture, that you are taking via camera - is it what your eyes see via the lens, or is it the image falling on the CCD/CMOS sensor?
I am not an advocate for any of the camera types so I do not want to get into this discussion as we will keep going at it ad nauseum.
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Old 18th January 2011, 13:47   #109
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Sorry to be rude but FILM being still used has nothing to do with sentiments or age. Fact is, yes i keep film with me and yes i use it, but its not the sentiments, its the fact that my film slr will cost $20 to replace and i wont hesitate to use it anywhere.
It is a question of practicality too. In Bangalore there is only one person who develops 120 film, and he charges an arm and a leg.

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Problem is people pretending to be pros and coming in the way of others.
I don't do that even when I am using the dSLR. In fact, I avoid taking my dSLR to family weddings lest I get in the way of wedding photographers.

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It's like saying why should one have stick shift when there is an Auto-transmission option available?
Well, that question is indeed asked in USA where 99% of the cars are automatic.
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Old 18th January 2011, 14:02   #110
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
It is a question of practicality too. In Bangalore there is only one person who develops 120 film, and he charges an arm and a leg.
Hence I made friends with a Film Genius, last time he ordered few chemicals, he had federal police giving him a visit as it was fairly serious set of chemicals and he's a hobbyist, I pay him about $5 for developing and he lets me use his Drum scanner for scanning and I lend him my lenses whenever he needs some.


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I don't do that even when I am using the dSLR. In fact, I avoid taking my dSLR to family weddings lest I get in the way of wedding photographers.
Well then your not a Consumer, you will be classified as ProSumer
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Old 18th January 2011, 14:26   #111
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

Quote:
Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
Regarding the pentaprism/mirror - you tell me why is it necessary in any camera? Why was it even invented (in the film era)?
... and now why should the same be required in a digital camera?
You will realize what redundancy I was talking about.



And as an EVIL advocate I would reply to EVF/LCD vs Optical viewfinder:
The picture, that you are taking via camera - is it what your eyes see via the lens, or is it the image falling on the CCD/CMOS sensor?
A pentamirror image is much clearer than EVF image in many situations, such as low light. I use both a EVF and a Pentamirror camera, and at night while I can still make out quite a few details in moonlight, the EVF is not so good.
That said, 99% of my photography does not require a pentamirror.
But on the internet, its is a rule. I call it the Axiom of tsk1979.
It states
"when arguing on the internet, always argue about features you will never use or have never used".
So the 1% of the situations where phase detect focus is needed and an penta(prism/mirror) is needed, make the entire concept of EVF totally useless. Since out of a 1000 photos a beginner will take, lets say one photo was not good because he did not have a mirror/prism, it is enough to trash the entire system.

So arguing about what is good or bad on technology front is not going to get anyone anywhere. Interchangeable lens cameras are the future for a lot of beginners. If the Panasonic GH2 had a special feature which I need, I would have sold my Tamron 10-24 and all other lenses, and simply jumped on a Panasonic GH2 with a 7-14 and a 70-300 lens.

So let me make a post not arguing about what is good or bad, but the current latest offerings in the market.
I think they are
1. Sony NEX - APS-C sensor
2. Olympus Pen - micro 4/3
3. Panasonic GH2 - micro 4/3
4. Samsung NX - APS-C Sensor

Any other cams anyone else can think off?

EDIT : Added Samsung NX series as suggested by Samurai

Last edited by tsk1979 : 18th January 2011 at 15:21.
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Old 18th January 2011, 15:00   #112
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

^ I will LOL to that.

IMO, Pentax should start thinking of joining the EVIL brigade (from commercial point of view).

As of now its only the Canons, Nikons and Sonys that dominate the DSLR market.
And it doesn't seem to be changing any time soon owing to their legacy.
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Old 18th January 2011, 15:02   #113
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

Yeah, the NX series from Samsung.
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Old 18th January 2011, 15:04   #114
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
I don't do that even when I am using the dSLR. In fact, I avoid taking my dSLR to family weddings lest I get in the way of wedding photographers.
Aha. But I do take my DSLR like super-zoom and complain that they get in my way!


Wedding photographers. by I want my screen name, on Flickr

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Well, that question is indeed asked in USA where 99% of the cars are automatic.
Indeed. What about India?
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Old 18th January 2011, 15:07   #115
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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@clevermax, in Mumbai I have never seen a Sony DSLR.
That's very strange indeed!! I saw some Alphas being displayed in a mediocre camera shop in Trivandrum along with their Canon and Nikon cousins - last weekend!

They didn't have mid-range or high end Sonys in stock but they said they can place the order and get it in a week. Just like they procure high end Caniokons when someone wants to buy it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
"when arguing on the internet, always argue about features you will never use or have never used".
So the 1% of the situations where phase detect focus is needed and an penta(prism/mirror) is needed, make the entire concept of EVF totally useless. Since out of a 1000 photos a beginner will take, lets say one photo was not good because he did not have a mirror/prism, it is enough to trash the entire system.
LOL!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
So arguing about what is good or bad on technology front is not going to get anyone anywhere. Interchangeable lens cameras are the future for a lot of beginners. If the Panasonic GH2 had a special feature which I need, I would have sold my Tamron 10-24 and all other lenses, and simply jumped on a Panasonic GH2 with a 7-14 and a 70-300 lens.
Rightly said.

Last edited by clevermax : 18th January 2011 at 15:12.
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Old 18th January 2011, 15:23   #116
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by clevermax View Post
That's very strange indeed!! I saw some Alphas being displayed in a mediocre camera shop in Trivandrum along with their Canon and Nikon cousins - last weekend!

They didn't have mid-range or high end Sonys in stock but they said they can place the order and get it in a week. Just like they procure high end Caniokons when someone wants to buy it.
The ones I ask here stock only NEX. Last month it was just P&S's. I have narrowed down a Sony Exclusive showroom which shows some promise. Will try them.

BTW, which shop in TVPM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979
So arguing about what is good or bad on technology front is not going to get anyone anywhere. Interchangeable lens cameras are the future for a lot of beginners. If the Panasonic GH2 had a special feature which I need, I would have sold my Tamron 10-24 and all other lenses, and simply jumped on a Panasonic GH2 with a 7-14 and a 70-300 lens.
Very well said indeed. Missed out your post while scrolling.

Last edited by typeOnegative : 18th January 2011 at 15:25.
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Old 18th January 2011, 15:26   #117
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by typeOnegative View Post
The ones I ask here stock only NEX. Last month it was just P&S's. I have narrowed down a Sony Exclusive showroom which shows some promise. Will try them.

BTW, which shop in TVPM?
The small shop where I saw Alphas is "Achas Colour lab and Studio" in MG road. I saw more Alphas and NEX cameras the same day in a slightly bigger camera shop called "Babas".
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Old 18th January 2011, 15:34   #118
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
I think, until Nikon and Canon come out with their EVIL cameras, this situation will continue. After that most entry level buyers will switch over to Canon/Nikon EVIL cameras, and only pros will remain in dSLR.
I agree with you totally on this.

I have just got my first DSLR and still figuring out "what shutter speed/f number" etc to be used at what situation (thoroughly enjoying the sessions though ). Recently I was checking out the NEX series and found it quite handy. The user interface is much simpler than the one found on my Canon (it did take some time to get used to). The MF too was much simpler (with the zooming of the focus point). The "background blur" option on the NEX is also very nice. I had to do a lot of study on the DSLR to understand how to do a blur effect, but with the NEX it took like 5 min. The NEX is surely a nice stepping stone for "wannabe" DSLR users .

Somehow it looks like by the time I understand the full potential of a DSLR, it might be outdated!! I just hope all the investments into the camera and lens don't go down the drain; already experienced the same effect with the old Canon film camera with FD lens (now it is a showpiece at home).

@ Samurai - Just went through your photo site, you have got a nice collection there
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Old 18th January 2011, 15:39   #119
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
I think, until Nikon and Canon come out with their EVIL cameras, this situation will continue. After that most entry level buyers will switch over to Canon/Nikon EVIL cameras, and only pros will remain in dSLR.
Yes.. and now that they don't have EVIL cameras, the natural tendency is to bash the EVILs projecting all their cons while compared against DSLRs. I was just wondering what difference it would make if I switch to an APS-C EVIL thereby ditching my DSLR. I think it will just help me in using camera more comfortably and confidently in public places without attracting unwanted attention of a DSLR which I don't like.
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Old 18th January 2011, 15:41   #120
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Default re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

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Originally Posted by ajman28 View Post
I agree with you totally on this.

I have just got my first DSLR and still figuring out "what shutter speed/f number" etc to be used at what situation (thoroughly enjoying the sessions though ).
You are getting carried away by sentiments of this thread , Your DSLR fully gave an option to use Auto or Creative Auto mode and be just like what you liked in NEX.

BTW beauty of NEX is that you can still choose to figure our what shutter speed / f number despite the small size. That exactly is advantage what differentiates EVIL from P&S with changeable lens.
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