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Old 29th November 2009, 20:23   #1
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Default Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

I think it's appropriate to discuss the proposed DSLR replacement now, the mirrorless EVIL (Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens) Camera.

As we lag a bit behind the technology curve, we sometimes benefit from the ability to leapfrog an entire generation of the state of the art.

Question
Is it worthwhile avoiding the mirror based DSLR in order to jump straight to the new generation of Canon, Sony and Samsung mirrorless designs?

Olympus and Panasonic digital cameras and photography

Remember, the m43 was intended for the PnS user wishing to jump to DSLR, but not willing to take on the burden of lessened portability.

Surprisingly all m43 kits are sold out, BUT bought by DSLR users fed up of the huge weight disadvantage, and attracted by the m43's ability to mount every lens made since the invention of the camera.

Oly and Panny were caught by surprise and could not meet the demand.

Is there a possibility of saving time and money by jumping straight to m43? Or even jumping from DSLR to mirrorless?

Many Nikon and Canon DSLR users have done just that, (some even selling all their old kit).

What do you think?

Last edited by proton : 29th November 2009 at 20:41. Reason: spelling
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Old 30th November 2009, 09:23   #2
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Originally Posted by proton View Post
I think it's appropriate to discuss the proposed DSLR replacement now, the mirrorless EVIL (Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens) Camera.

As we lag a bit behind the technology curve, we sometimes benefit from the ability to leapfrog an entire generation of the state of the art.

Question
Is it worthwhile avoiding the mirror based DSLR in order to jump straight to the new generation of Canon, Sony and Samsung mirrorless designs?

Olympus and Panasonic digital cameras and photography

Remember, the m43 was intended for the PnS user wishing to jump to DSLR, but not willing to take on the burden of lessened portability.

Surprisingly all m43 kits are sold out, BUT bought by DSLR users fed up of the huge weight disadvantage, and attracted by the m43's ability to mount every lens made since the invention of the camera.

Oly and Panny were caught by surprise and could not meet the demand.

Is there a possibility of saving time and money by jumping straight to m43? Or even jumping from DSLR to mirrorless?

Many Nikon and Canon DSLR users have done just that, (some even selling all their old kit).

What do you think?
I don't think mirror-less is meant to replace DSLR's. I am going to sound like a broken record but its all about the NEED. M43 was needed, as you said yourself it give features of a DSLR without the bulk and weight.

For sometime now, secondhand market is filled with lower end DSLR's since Nikon/Canon/Pentax sold a lot of these but not enough lenses. Problem for an average Joe weight and bulk was big factor. A lot of people joined in but sold the kit away without much use. It not a surprise to find Lower end DSLR's with under 1500 shutter count yet being over 3 yrs old selling for low prices. This is because average consumer doesn't want to deal with the weight and bulk of a DSLR. Panasonic/Olympus found the answer with M4 and then M43 and consumers are just jumping on the band wagon.

Its the similar scenario to Net-book segment, ASUS researched the fact that people want something smaller to carry and cashed on it and not everyone is releasing a new net-book each week.

This is what has happened and will continue to happen in Camera segment.

Canon/Ricoh/etc produced cameras with big sensors, so DSLR users can have a backup when they cannot take a DSLR with them but except G series none have been hugely popular, this is due to many factors, slow AF, bad battery life, no enough controls, but the bigger factor being lens itself. Everyone shoots at a different style, a 28mm lens might be ideal for u but i might want 20mm/50mm/85mm there. M43 addressed this issue and is one of the main reasons for the success.

M43 kits being sold out doesnt mean its a huge success, Ps3 launch scenario cleary explains that.

Yes M43 provide a huge benefit of weight and bulk reduction but these are done at a price.

One of the reasons one moves to Full Frame and then to Medium Format and then to Large format and eventually 6x17 is Wide angle coverage. None of the land scape shooters will goto M43, because sensor is too small. Similarily DOF advantage gets thrown out of the window.

Using a DSLR meant you are ACTUALLY previewing exactly how your final image will look (bar long exposures) which isn't possible if you are viewing an lcd. I don`t want to go into huge technical detail but technical advantage is still with DSLR's.

Fact here is just another segment is harder to launch that cashing in on an existing segment. For example for over 100yrs there hasn't been a significant development to the way a SLR works, except film plane getting changed with a sensor, but everything else is still the same. And this is good way to cash in on the segment.

Also more weight and bulk issue well egronomics come into play here. I cannot expect from anyone to shoot 1000+ frame with m43 since your wrist will hurt and eventually you will be in lot of pain. Even with the lower end DSLR`s like D40/D40x/D3000 can do this way better than M43.

Please point me out if i am wrong.

Thanks
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Old 12th May 2010, 09:39   #3
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Anyone here using the Micro 4/3rds format?
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Old 12th May 2010, 12:26   #4
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Originally Posted by smokie View Post
Anyone here using the Micro 4/3rds format?
I guess not. Looking at the commercial below, which was made with a PEN, I think I might convert soon!

Olympus E-PL1 Now Used to Shoot Television Comercials
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Old 12th May 2010, 14:32   #5
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Originally Posted by smokie View Post
Anyone here using the Micro 4/3rds format?
I guess Samurai is using E-3!!!
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Old 12th May 2010, 16:50   #6
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Originally Posted by smokie View Post
Anyone here using the Micro 4/3rds format?
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Originally Posted by kkr2k2 View Post
I guess Samurai is using E-3!!!
That's a 4/3rds mount and not a micro 4/3rds format.
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Old 12th May 2010, 16:57   #7
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Originally Posted by HellwratH View Post
That's a 4/3rds mount and not a micro 4/3rds format.
Correct

4/3rds refer to the sensor size of diagonal length of 21.63 mm and a lens mount for corresponding cameras, micro 4/3ed is a lens mount with reduced size for compactness.

Here is the Micro 4/3 specifications whitepaper.
Four Thirds | Micro Four Thirds | Standard | Whitepaper (Summary of Standard)

Here is the product list of Micro 4/3rds

Four Thirds | Micro Four Thirds | Products(Camera Bodies)

In my understanding all products with Micro 4/3 Mount have 4/3 sensor.

Last edited by amitk26 : 12th May 2010 at 17:00. Reason: missed micro in micro 4/3 specification
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Old 13th May 2010, 15:05   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HellwratH View Post
I guess not. Looking at the commercial below, which was made with a PEN, I think I might convert soon!
Two words - Marketing Hype


Quote:
Originally Posted by arjunrudra View Post
Guys here is something I found on the new upcoming models from the Nikon. Seems like the replacement for the D90 is coming in real soon.
Anyways here is a link to the article:

Prediction: D90 replacement to lack AF motor?: Nikon D90 - D40 / D5000 Forum: Digital Photography Review

Cheers
Its a prediction and the user has no insider information.
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Old 13th May 2010, 15:21   #9
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Originally Posted by rajb3125 View Post
Two words - Marketing Hype
May be. But the video/image clarity is good, so why should I not fall for it? . My point is simple, EVIL cameras are the way ahead (atleast for me). Weighs lesser, incospicuous and 2x crop factor. Best part, Olympus makes mounts to mount other companies' lenses on it easily. Beat this, it's easier to mount and get good results from a Canon FD lens on an M 4/3rd camera than the EOS camera. Sigh. I have no intentions of printing as of now and don't think I have the patience to get it done and exhibit. You might say I am well off using a P&S then, I agree, but I also like the DOF, bokeh and the stuff DSLR gives me. So, all in all, I am in for it.

BTW, Sony released 2 new EVIL cameras, NEX-5 and NEX-3 with E-mounts. It is going to follow Olympus and release adapters to be able to mount its alpha lenses as well.
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Old 13th May 2010, 16:18   #10
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Originally Posted by rajb3125 View Post
Two words - Marketing Hype
Yeah, Olympus is known for such repeated marketing hype. Let's look at past examples. The fixed lens SLR, fixed lens dSLR, digital only format called 4/3rd, anti-dust sensor technology, live-view, in-body image stabilization, EVIL m3/4, etc. Trouble is suckers like me fall for it.
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Old 13th May 2010, 22:34   #11
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Originally Posted by HellwratH View Post
May be. But the video/image clarity is good, so why should I not fall for it? . My point is simple, EVIL cameras are the way ahead (atleast for me). Weighs lesser, incospicuous and 2x crop factor. Best part, Olympus makes mounts to mount other companies' lenses on it easily. Beat this, it's easier to mount and get good results from a Canon FD lens on an M 4/3rd camera than the EOS camera. Sigh. I have no intentions of printing as of now and don't think I have the patience to get it done and exhibit. You might say I am well off using a P&S then, I agree, but I also like the DOF, bokeh and the stuff DSLR gives me. So, all in all, I am in for it.

BTW, Sony released 2 new EVIL cameras, NEX-5 and NEX-3 with E-mounts. It is going to follow Olympus and release adapters to be able to mount its alpha lenses as well.
Well my point is tiny bit different. Sure one can mount plethora of lenses on a M4/3 body but then what's the point? One still ends up majority of the weight in the lens. What is lost is the balance between the body and lens. Not to mention bad ergonomics encountered with current m4/3 bodies.

If you like Dof, the bigger sensor should be of a major concern to you. I might be off a tiny bit but with 2x crop sensor at 50mm f0.95 you will get Dof similar to 1.5x crop sensor at 50mm f1.8. Not to mention higher ISO and low noise at base ISO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Yeah, Olympus is known for such repeated marketing hype. Let's look at past examples. The fixed lens SLR, fixed lens dSLR, digital only format called 4/3rd, anti-dust sensor technology, live-view, in-body image stabilization, EVIL m3/4, etc. Trouble is suckers like me fall for it.
I never talked about the past mate. Only thing i pointed out was related to m4/3

The advert referred to PRO IMAGE QUALITY quite a few times without any proper comparison. Reminds of the thread "Ford fiesta is better than Lambo".

Sadly Olympus is becoming Lancia of camera world.
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Old 15th May 2010, 06:49   #12
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All the folks who think that buying lenses is an expensive sin, i would suggest a less expensive sin - manual focus lens. Just buy a M42 ADAPTER. It will open gates to the old gems, which would make you happy, prices of which start from 300/- for a helios-44 58mm f2. Its one heck of a sharp lens.

People having nikon bodies which dont AF, can skip the 50mm f2 and go the manual route.

And an experience i would like to share with people with EVIL cameras: couple of weeks ago i had my hands on my friends Panasonic G1 with M42 beauty SMC takumar 50mm f1.4. What can i say? it was so lovely to focusing manually that it erased my bad feeling against EVIL cameras for lacking a PRISM! And i was shooting in low light. With f1.4, it was a dream. So all the EVIL guys try this at least once, i am sure most of you will fall in love with these classical beauties!
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Old 17th May 2010, 12:05   #13
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Originally Posted by kkr2k2 View Post
All the folks who think that buying lenses is an expensive sin, i would suggest a less expensive sin - manual focus lens. Just buy a M42 ADAPTER. It will open gates to the old gems, which would make you happy, prices of which start from 300/- for a helios-44 58mm f2. Its one heck of a sharp lens.

People having nikon bodies which dont AF, can skip the 50mm f2 and go the manual route.

And an experience i would like to share with people with EVIL cameras: couple of weeks ago i had my hands on my friends Panasonic G1 with M42 beauty SMC takumar 50mm f1.4. What can i say? it was so lovely to focusing manually that it erased my bad feeling against EVIL cameras for lacking a PRISM! And i was shooting in low light. With f1.4, it was a dream. So all the EVIL guys try this at least once, i am sure most of you will fall in love with these classical beauties!
Very very true kkr2k2. I used a manual focus lens (canon FD 50mm f3.5 macro with an FD to EOS adapter with a glass element) this weekend for half my shots. And I must admit, the sharpness and IQ were very very good. Coming to m4/3rds, the advantage is that of the flange to plane distance, which makes it very very easy to create adapters to mount almost any lens that was made. All it takes is a good eye for manual focusing and most macro shooters are used to it anyway . The only problem I have is the availabilty of mf lenses in India. I don't know about other cities, but here in bangalore, they are very rare or may be I don't know where to look for these old mf lenses. Anyways, thank you for your hands on review, it just confirms my feeling about EVIL cameras .
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Old 17th May 2010, 13:31   #14
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Originally Posted by kkr2k2 View Post
All the folks who think that buying lenses is an expensive sin, i would suggest a less expensive sin - manual focus lens. Just buy a M42 ADAPTER. It will open gates to the old gems, which would make you happy, prices of which start from 300/- for a helios-44 58mm f2. Its one heck of a sharp lens.
M42 beauty SMC takumar 50mm f1.4. What can i say? it was so lovely to focusing manually that it erased my bad feeling against EVIL cameras for lacking a PRISM! And i was shooting in low light. With f1.4, it was a dream. So all the EVIL guys try this at least once, i am sure most of you will fall in love with these classical beauties!
Quote:
Originally Posted by HellwratH View Post
. The only problem I have is the availabilty of mf lenses in India. I don't know about other cities, but here in bangalore, they are very rare or may be I don't know where to look for these old mf lenses. Anyways, thank you for your hands on review, it just confirms my feeling about EVIL cameras .
Same question where to buy an old M42 screw mount lens ?

Folks I am interested in SMC Takumar F 1.4 if anyone willing to sell or knows where to get this in India PM me.
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Old 30th June 2010, 20:32   #15
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Originally Posted by ajman28 View Post
I have an old CANON A-1 with a set of 3 FD (wide, 50mm & 200mm) lens which I am planning to trade for a new EOS (mostly the EOS 1000D). My doubts here are:

1. Is there a second hand market for SLR cameras?
2. How much can I expect for the A-1 body?
3. Can I use the FD lens on the EOS (they use EF lens)?

Gurus - Please advice

Aj
If you can go for the EVIL cameras with just the kit lens, you have lovely set of lenses and you will save a lot on the lenses by retaining those lenses. There is a flip side too - with the MFT cameras you have a crop factor of 2!! So your wide angle lens will no longer be wide but your 200mm lens would be giving you same field of view as that of 400mm. As for the film camera, if I were you I would keep it (i would not sell it for couple of thousands!!). You can shoot some film once in a while. Film SLR is cheapest way to shoot 35mm full frame shots and those elusive wide angle shots for which you will make a huge black-hole in your pocket if you want wide angle lenses for a cropped DSLR body.

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Originally Posted by HellwratH View Post
... As far as the FD lenses go, you can use them with an adapter but you will lose infinity focus. You can get another adapter with a glass element, but the element will reduce the IQ. So, effectively you can use the FD lenses on EOS but with some IQ loss. On the other hand, if you plan to sell them, I'll be interested in the 200mm.
Few of my friends use with the adapter on the EOS cameras and just for the heck of it not produce some good pics, they have a set of EF-S and EF lenses for their DSLRs!!

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Originally Posted by clevermax View Post
At last someone noticed the post amongst countless number of lens and camera shopping related posts! I feel there should be two threads, one to discuss technical aspects and other as 'Which DSLR/Lens to buy'
How about a sub-section for Photography??

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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
And how exactly Focus Assist of tom,dick and harry camera will work when the lens is manual and has no electronic contact ?
I cant say exactly how it works, but a friend of mine uses a nikon film camera lens on Canon 400D with an adapter and a focus assist / confirm ring.

BUT hey!! this arrangement can not replace an AF lens. Go for this arrangement as a cheaper option to explore those fast lens like f2 or f1.8 or f1.4 or f1.2!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by recshenoy View Post
Thanks shajufx. I am aware of crop factor.

Here are my thoughts on Manual focus! Imagine I take SLR out and shoot some portrait of girls,baby etc and at same time some PnS guy also shoots. Later when viewing on big screen I donít want to be a joker with my possible out of focus photos when compared to PnS guy so dropped plans of 50mm, 1.8, hope someday i can buy 35mm 1.8!

rajb3125,
Thanks for correction. I meant 35 1.8 not 1.4
Your thoughts are correct but only sometimes as you said but when you take pics with a f1.8 with lovely bokeh and people will drool on it!! The 50mm on a cropped body makes a good portrait lens(80mm)!! And yeah!! you have the option on lens reversal too!!
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