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Old 30th April 2011, 15:11   #106
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Default re: Apple sues Samsung and now HTC

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Originally Posted by vina View Post
This is true blue Apple cult in action - come everyone else, we will take you down
The company so far has done that for us while we are busy enjoying the products
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Old 30th April 2011, 15:27   #107
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Default re: Apple sues Samsung and now HTC

Snipped everything before because if you don't understand business implications on products you will not understand it now as well.

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post

iOS was never meant to be an open source software so I can't see why you have a problem with that.
Because OS Kernel in Mac OS X and iOS is freeBSD developed by Berkley systems.
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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post

Too far fetched my friend. We all know what iPhone 5 hardware will comprise of and for your information it will have the same dual core processor and the same uber powerful GPU from iPad 2 but the most interesting bit is that Apple's strength isn't hardware but its software. I am sure with iOS 5 and new uber powerful hardware in iPhone 5, the competition will go back to drawing board once again. Apple needn't be afraid of Samsung as they are mostly a hardware manufacturer and get pre cooked OS from Google. Dont we all know how dreadful the TouchWiz UI is?
Nothing like this is going to happen becuase the next generation from others is out before Apple iPhone 5.

The discussion is about who copies from whome the whole point is Apple has copied a lot of patented ideas from comptetion and they can not play holier then thou.

Neither it is far fetched nor too far away iPhone 5 is late is truth and Galaxy S2 is already out , Yes I fully know it is not about processor because Apple A4 is nearly identical to the Exynos ( earleir name orion) processor and made by same Semiconductor division of Samsung.

Have you every seen an OS from inside out ? Innovations in frameworks and subsystems do not exactly corelate to UI , If Apple claims that ideas from it's UI are copied by others much more complex technological ideas inside the hood are copied by Apple from others.

For Your Kind information complex and Jazzy UI can be supported on a variety of systems entirely different from each other technologically.


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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
For me the true innovation in terms of OS has come from Microsoft Windows Phone 7 which has truly revolutionary UI concepts and implementation. If not for the developer support, the Android UI isnt much more polished than Symbian^3, the smartphone OS problem child. They are also headed towards the handheld gaming device market which is why Sony and Nintendo are afraid, really afraid.
I think I need not post more , It is really difficult to discuss anything if you are a fanboy.

What is revolutionary there exactly is beyond me , Revolutionary means something which changes paradigm
some examples.

1. Palm WebOS showed the world a new concept of no difference between native App and web app.
2. Cloud based applications from Google , Including new Cloud based image processing demo by Eric Schmidt and Azure cloud based app from Microsoft
3. Google Chromium OS , Goes one step beyond Palm WebOS , Shows that terminal OS need not be anything more then a Kernel + browser engine and all the applications can be in HTML5 + native client libs.

BTW : HSDPA and HSUPA are not 2.5G as you wrote but beyond 3G technologies and LTE is 4G.
Crux of the story innovation just does not mean UI design

Last edited by amitk26 : 30th April 2011 at 15:35.
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Old 30th April 2011, 17:06   #108
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Default re: Apple sues Samsung and now HTC

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Because OS Kernel in Mac OS X and iOS is freeBSD developed by Berkley systems.
Not going to delve deeper into this and not many end users out there would like to a work on a terminal OS. If Apple thinks that they have done enough on the UI front on top of the kernel so as to not make it open source, its their decision.

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Nothing like this is going to happen becuase the next generation from others is out before Apple iPhone 5.
You are forgetting iPad 2 is already out and it won't be very difficult to port iOS apps that make use of extra horsepower to iPhone 5.

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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
The discussion is about who copies from whome the whole point is Apple has copied a lot of patented ideas from comptetion and they can not play holier then thou.
In a perfect world they shouldn't but it not a perfect world.

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Neither it is far fetched nor too far away iPhone 5 is late is truth and Galaxy S2 is already out , Yes I fully know it is not about processor because Apple A4 is nearly identical to the Exynos ( earleir name orion) processor and made by same Semiconductor division of Samsung.
Exynos is the dual core processor range from Samsung based on ARM Cortex A9 while A4 is based on ARM Cortex A8 reference design.

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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Have you every seen an OS from inside out ? Innovations in frameworks and subsystems do not exactly corelate to UI , If Apple claims that ideas from it's UI are copied by others much more complex technological ideas inside the hood are copied by Apple from others.
Well my question is how does it matter to the end user given that his phone is faster, gives good battery life and can do whatever the competition can do?

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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
For Your Kind information complex and Jazzy UI can be supported on a variety of systems entirely different from each other technologically.
My friend not many end users out there would be concerned about how what is done? The question remains, if Apple were able to implement the snazzy UI, whats stopping other from implementing it the same way? Compare the pinch to zoom functionality in the browser and photo app in SGS and comparatively ancient, hardware wise, iPhone 3GS and comment.

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I think I need not post more , It is really difficult to discuss anything if you are a fanboy.
Obviously I don't have as much technical depth on mobile OS and technologies as you, but I am very keen user. I got my friend's SGS for a couple of days hoping to like it given the uber powerful GPU, 1GHZ proc and 512 MB RAM but I was sorely disappointed. The experience was no way near my iPhone 3GS.

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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
What is revolutionary there exactly is beyond me , Revolutionary means something which changes paradigm
some examples.

1. Palm WebOS showed the world a new concept of no difference between native App and web app.
2. Cloud based applications from Google , Including new Cloud based image processing demo by Eric Schmidt and Azure cloud based app from Microsoft
3. Google Chromium OS , Goes one step beyond Palm WebOS , Shows that terminal OS need not be anything more then a Kernel + browser engine and all the applications can be in HTML5 + native client libs.
My question is why can't UI which is what basically the end user is going to interact with can't be revolutionary? One of the major reason why iOS is so successful is because it works like a machine, not like a software. In my 3 years of iPhone usage, I have never got the out of memory error even though I was intentionally starting apps hoping to get it. While I got the same error within half an hour using a SGS! My iPhone 3GS has never felt slow or got stuck anywhere doing anything for more than a second ever.
End result: I don't really care what underlying technologies the OS in built upon, what matters to me is the end user experience.

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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
BTW : HSDPA and HSUPA are not 2.5G as you wrote but beyond 3G technologies and LTE is 4G.
I said the original iPhone was 2.5G/EDGE. At that time I also had the Nokia N82 smartphone which was 3G, but the Apple iPhone even with 2.5G was more usable simply because I could do much more with the data.

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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Crux of the story innovation just does not mean UI design
What I am saying is that end user experience matters a hell lot. Whether it comes from UI design or the underlying OS technologies doesn't really matter.

Which company would not want a cult following for its products. Nokia had it too but the company gave it away when it came to smartphone and is now a mee too rather than a pioneer it used to be.

Enough said.
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Old 30th April 2011, 18:12   #109
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Default re: Apple sues Samsung and now HTC

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Originally Posted by akhilesh View Post
Not going to delve deeper into this and not many end users out there would like to a work on a terminal OS. If Apple thinks that they have done enough on the UI front on top of the kernel so as to not make it open source, its their decision.


You are forgetting iPad 2 is already out and it won't be very difficult to port iOS apps that make use of extra horsepower to iPhone 5.


In a perfect world they shouldn't but it not a perfect world.


Exynos is the dual core processor range from Samsung based on ARM Cortex A9 while A4 is based on ARM Cortex A8 reference design.


Well my question is how does it matter to the end user given that his phone is faster, gives good battery life and can do whatever the competition can do?


My friend not many end users out there would be concerned about how what is done? The question remains, if Apple were able to implement the snazzy UI, whats stopping other from implementing it the same way? Compare the pinch to zoom functionality in the browser and photo app in SGS and comparatively ancient, hardware wise, iPhone 3GS and comment.


Obviously I don't have as much technical depth on mobile OS and technologies as you, but I am very keen user. I got my friend's SGS for a couple of days hoping to like it given the uber powerful GPU, 1GHZ proc and 512 MB RAM but I was sorely disappointed. The experience was no way near my iPhone 3GS.


My question is why can't UI which is what basically the end user is going to interact with can't be revolutionary? One of the major reason why iOS is so successful is because it works like a machine, not like a software. In my 3 years of iPhone usage, I have never got the out of memory error even though I was intentionally starting apps hoping to get it. While I got the same error within half an hour using a SGS! My iPhone 3GS has never felt slow or got stuck anywhere doing anything for more than a second ever.
End result: I don't really care what underlying technologies the OS in built upon, what matters to me is the end user experience.


I said the original iPhone was 2.5G/EDGE. At that time I also had the Nokia N82 smartphone which was 3G, but the Apple iPhone even with 2.5G was more usable simply because I could do much more with the data.


What I am saying is that end user experience matters a hell lot. Whether it comes from UI design or the underlying OS technologies doesn't really matter.

Which company would not want a cult following for its products. Nokia had it too but the company gave it away when it came to smartphone and is now a mee too rather than a pioneer it used to be.

Enough said.

Akhilesh

I think you should have finished the post with "Enough repeated"

I don't think Amit is questioning the UI or the user experience of Apple. The discussion here is on innovation, as defined legally (and technologically) - that's what you need when someone sues someone else.

And that is where Amit makes very important points - under the hood Apple is infringing everyone else (I don't know whether that is true or not, but that is Amit's point).

Now step back from Apple-love-land a little, and think about it. Someone else developed the basic technology and gave sucking products (I don't think Amit will disagree), Apple came in and gave good products - does the consumer benefit - of course.

However Apple goes out and starts suing others - does the consumer benefit - no way.

And when it comes to legality of things, "how it is done" is usually at least as important as "what is done". Usually a lot of great features do not come on products because nobody knows how to do it in an efficient way.
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Old 30th April 2011, 18:41   #110
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Default re: Apple sues Samsung and now HTC

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Well my question is how does it matter to the end user given that his phone is faster, gives good battery life and can do whatever the competition can do?
Just to remind you this thread and the discussion was never about how it matters to end user or not, this was strictly about Apple sues Samsung and subsequently Samsung sues Apple for 10 patent violation each.

A patent war and who stole technology from whom is never a concern to end user anyway.

Bringing end user experience and how you feel about company X UX is out of scope of this discussion.May be Nokia , HTC, Samsung etc are actually crappy but that discussion can be taken to mobile phone opinion thread.


The discussion is purely focused on innovation and on the point that if assertion of Apple is correct or not.

Sometimes great innovations are not welcomed by end consumers at all

Example NCD ( Network Computing Device) of Larry Ellison in 1998 which did not find much favor but then in 2010 the cloud became big and the concept is big , Of-course cloud computing is not exactly same but idea and model is exactly same.

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Originally Posted by akhilesh View Post
Not going to delve deeper into this and not many end users out there would like to a work on a terminal OS. If Apple thinks that they have done enough on the UI front on top of the kernel so as to not make it open source, its their decision.
Yes it is there decision and we all know that for past 12 years , All I pointed was their projection of that Hallo that they invent /innovate whereas all they do is adapt and package like all good consumer electronics companies including Samsung, Sony etc do in their products.
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You are forgetting iPad 2 is already out and it won't be very difficult to port iOS apps that make use of extra horsepower to iPhone 5.
Check the context , Someone said 'others' are waiting to rip apart iPhone5 that may be true but comptetion for iPhone5 is ahead and iPhone schedule is delayed so is all the hallblu of these delyng tactics.

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Originally Posted by akhilesh View Post
Exynos is the dual core processor range from Samsung based on ARM Cortex A9 while A4 is based on ARM Cortex A8 reference design.
Yes I know fully well and that is why the comment the next generation A5 ( in the iPad2 ) is similar to Exynos ( C210 ) which is in Galaxy S2 , iPhoen5 is rumered from June to Sept .

Previous generation iPhones had advantage that they had app store ecosystem ahead of others but in 2011 that is eroded , Android market is equally competitive so war is tough.
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Old 2nd May 2011, 09:21   #111
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Default re: Apple sues Samsung and now HTC

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Just to remind you this thread and the discussion was never about how it matters to end user or not, this was strictly about Apple sues Samsung and subsequently Samsung sues Apple for 10 patent violation each.
And neither was it about whether Apple was selling mediocre stuff and Apple fans putting with it. Browse back to see where the discussion took a turn.
Quote:
Bringing end user experience and how you feel about company X UX is out of scope of this discussion.May be Nokia , HTC, Samsung etc are actually crappy but that discussion can be taken to mobile phone opinion thread.
And so are discussions on whether Apple is leading on innovation or not. Lets stick to the suing part.
Quote:

The discussion is purely focused on innovation and on the point that if assertion of Apple is correct or not.
Oh, you want to talk about innovation too? Then I'd like to add the UX too. Or lets both stick to suing.
Quote:
Check the context , Someone said 'others' are waiting to rip apart iPhone5 that may be true but comptetion for iPhone5 is ahead and iPhone schedule is delayed so is all the hallblu of these delyng tactics.
OK, "rip apart" was a metaphor. Or you can consider that as mockery. So put it this way. They all wait for Apple to bring something new (concept) in the market, and they sees that the concept is sell-able, so make similar products. And some companies like Samsung makes look-alikes (not necessarily replicas), which they can sell easier owing to the success of the original products.

And Apple does have a point there.


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I think I need not post more , It is really difficult to discuss anything if you are a fanboy.

What is revolutionary there exactly is beyond me , Revolutionary means something which changes paradigm
First, I do not know what you did in your post to make those words appear as said by me. If it is an error please correct.

Second, it is bad to call those who don't agree to your PoVs as fanboys. That proves that you don't have anything else to say. In the same vein, I can also call you a Apple hater. In fact hating anything successful is a kind of lifestyle that is catching up.

BTW, I wonder whether you have used WP7 to come up with that strong opinion. I have a HTC phome which I dual boot with Android and WP7 (Not Windows Mobile, mind it). Android is fun, as the devs cook at least one new ROM every day, so it feels nice installing the new ROM, playing with it and tweaking it. BUT, at the end, I reboot into WP7 to do my usual stuff. Such is the user experience provided by WP7, I am willing to forgive all the shortcomings at the moment. For around 3 months, I am using WP7 as my primary OS, and I boot to Android only when I have to tether or use google maps. I don't see myself going back to Android any time soon.

Last edited by civic-sense : 2nd May 2011 at 09:37.
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Old 2nd May 2011, 11:41   #112
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Default re: Apple sues Samsung and now HTC

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And neither was it about whether Apple was selling mediocre stuff and Apple fans putting with it. Browse back to see where the discussion took a turn.
Did anyone say mediocre ? You asked why no-one before Apple did XYZ things and answer is Apple had a following in USA which no other manufacturer had and they accepted bold decisions from Apple for sacrificing somethings which others could not afford.
In fact making a new platform is costly proposition my personal estimate is about a billion doller investment in platform + ecoystem and some assurance of return is needed either by pre-selling to operators ( and thus getting dicated) or by deep pockets like Microsoft.
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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
And so are discussions on whether Apple is leading on innovation or not. Lets stick to the suing part.

Oh, you want to talk about innovation too? Then I'd like to add the UX too. Or lets both stick to suing.
Innovation and bold business decision are two different things . Innovation by defination is doing it for first time or thinking it is doable and proving it. To take certain decisions to mass market in flagship product is bold business decision ( example using touch screen and sacrificing keypad ).

Though you may like to belive but they are not one and same. You can sue others for stealing your innovations but not for entering the business you created because that falls under aegis of antitrust laws.
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And Apple does have a point there.
see above , Also it is not just apple opens new business and others enter it. It is other way round as well . Apple is entering business concept which others created and it marketed well before them. There are lots of examples including mobile advertising , cloud computing but there is nothing wrong about it and Apples competitions never made snide remarks about it.

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BTW, I wonder whether you have used WP7 to come up with that strong opinion. I have a HTC phome which I dual boot with Android and WP7 (Not Windows Mobile, mind it).
Yes I am seeing it from the development stage itself. UI is good but nothing that can be called revolutionary.
Again your view is very consumer centric so probably you are not able to understand my points at all. WP7 had good looking UI and you like it better then HTC Android UI does not make is "revolutionary"

THat dual boot using virtualization is an HTC alpha feature and not part of WP7 by the way. And to some extent it may be called revolutionary on part of HTC to bring to market mobile virtualization solution though it was first done by Hitachi in 2007 in Japan market using OKL4 and thereafter by Motorola in some product.
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Old 2nd May 2011, 11:49   #113
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Default re: Apple sues Samsung and now HTC

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Apple is suing Samsung for copying the look and feel of the iPhone on the Galaxy mobiles.

It is a sure sign that Android and Galaxy have come of age!
For it looks like nothing more than a public stunt for some reason,
Apple and samsung are hand in hand...googling a bit will reveal that apple iPhone and samung wave / galaxy are powered by the same proc which is Now owned by Apple, more over samsung Is the OEM for apple's LCD screens...

Both can't live without each other when the sharks like Win7 phone, HTC, nokia are tring to bring apple down.

Just my thought.
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Old 2nd May 2011, 11:52   #114
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Default re: Apple sues Samsung and now HTC

guys, guys, guys...chill!
dont dissect each other statement by statement!
Its sounding like point-counterpoint between apple and samsung lawyers!!


By the by, does anybody have any news on the development front for the case from any news/webcasts?
The last we heard about updates was , well, in the notfication stage only!
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Old 2nd May 2011, 12:43   #115
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Default re: Apple sues Samsung and now HTC

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guys, guys, guys...chill!
dont dissect each other statement by statement!
Its sounding like point-counterpoint between apple and samsung lawyers!!


By the by, does anybody have any news on the development front for the case from any news/webcasts?
The last we heard about updates was , well, in the notfication stage only!
you're damn right !

Let's focus on the implication to the consumer - Apple and samsung are paying very handsomely to some people for this kind of arguments, and few could care less that Apple (or Samsung) stole all the technology from others when making a buying decision.
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Old 2nd May 2011, 13:09   #116
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Default re: Apple sues Samsung and now HTC

They are all sinners and we are talking on behalf of them against each other here. Haven't companies other than Apple have silly software patents which they use to cross license?

There could be lot in store against Android also. Isn't HTC paying to Microsoft already? Google offered something for free and bunch of manufacturers took it up. Now the manufacturers have to face the wrath of other established players.
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Old 2nd May 2011, 13:44   #117
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Default re: Apple sues Samsung and now HTC

Suing & trying to prevent competitors from gaining advantage happens all the time. The funny thing is that most of the companies work with each other also and sue them also. The whole thing is 'convenience' based.

Here is a nice info-graphic showing who's suing who.
Apple sues Samsung and now HTC-whossuingwho2.png

Source: Who’s Suing Who? A Cheat Sheet to the Mobile Patent Mess


Here is one more story of a company using litigation to effectively 'kill' their potential competitor startup.
How Like.com Shut Down A Competitor–And Broke Up Its Funding Round - Tomio Geron - Social Markets - Forbes

OT: if you are interested in IP area, then a good read:
Paul's Pontifications: Patent 5,893,120 reduced to mathematical formulae
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Old 2nd May 2011, 14:33   #118
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There could be lot in store against Android also. Isn't HTC paying to Microsoft already? Google offered something for free and bunch of manufacturers took it up. Now the manufacturers have to face the wrath of other established players.
Well GPL V3 came up exactly for this when Microsoft worked with Novel to get some royalties for using Linux kernel which they claim violates 50 patents without ever specifying what exactly those patents are.
As per GPL v3 you can not buy indemnity for yourself along and have to indemnify the community as well.

In case of HTC or Novel it is always that microsoft is adjusting the money elsewhere so they agreed to pay. This is kind of FUD as per GNU and FSF but buy these kind of settlements Microsoft is succeeding in its scare tactics may be not against IBMs but other players.
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Old 2nd May 2011, 16:24   #119
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If the IOS ecosystem is a closed one, there are reasons for that.

1) Because of all the restrictions imposed, the IOS is still a very secure system. Android has a huge malware problem. According to Kaspersky: Android phones now face 70 types of malware, Kaspersky reports - GSMArena.com news.

Just this point was missed , One thing for sure "Google" Android ( as against Android in general) has malware problem becuase of loopholes in App Approval for "Google Market" and the approval for Google Android App Market is not open process. It is a closely guarded secret just like Apples market approval process.

This is becuase Android ( OHA) is not open in governance like Linux and Google is only decision maker. Some time back I wrote somewhere negatives of Android model and was criticized a lot by few people here. So both Apple and Google market approval is closed and no one knows for sure if Apple process is secure or not becuase it is not challenged.

Most of these 70 problems are proof of concept threats by various security researchers ( including most famous angry bird extension threat) and these kind of challenges make system more secure eventually as for each exposed security hole either Google or OEM is forced to issue a patch

Last edited by amitk26 : 2nd May 2011 at 16:26.
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Old 2nd May 2011, 16:44   #120
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Default re: Apple sues Samsung and now HTC

Most malware issues crop up(I said most, not all) when people install apps from forums and all,
Apple does not allow you to do so, so figuratively saying, its more secure.

Android phones(atleast unlocked ones) allow you to allow apps from anywhere.

Now people may argue this makes one system more secure, and one less secure, they do not realize this has nothing to do with system security.

Its more of a choice of the user. I would rather have choice and use my judgement. If my judgement is flawed and I get burnt, its my fault, not apples fault.

Think of it this way. BMW sells cars electronically limited to 150mph. If BMW sold a version not electronically limited, and someone crashed it at 200mph, it is BMWs fault of not being a secure car?

So apple is not secure because its closed. Its relatively more secure because apple does not allow you to install apps from just about anywhere. For example if Microsoft told you that you could install software permitted by them, and nothing else, malware problem will be reduced by quite a bit. But will you buy a windows PC then if you could install stuff only when MS permits you to? I am not judging anyone, but I am surprised people buying such a system out of their own free will. I just think different, from them, and I respect their thinking too.


But this discussion is totally irrelevant to this thread.
Speaking of this particular threads, the arguments put forward are very interesting. If I were a patent lawyer, I would have good fun, because its a well known facts that patents are an arsenal. Like in cold war USSR had a large number of nukes, and USA also had a large number of nukes.
It did not matter who had more, as both had more than enough to destroy the planet.

Same is with patents, these are arsenals to get deals and all. All those thinking about how apple innovated, and how palm innovated and blah blah need to get out of kindergarten. Welcome the the real world!

Last edited by tsk1979 : 2nd May 2011 at 16:47.
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