Wagon R LXI CNG Vs Wagon R VXI + CNG Kit

[ajay387]

A relative of mine had to buy a car with a max buget of 4.5 L and the new Wagon R was shortlisted. The LXI model was selected for 4.2 on road. Couldn't Convince him to buy the VXI with ABS+Airbag . While doing info gathering of Wagon R i found out:

The Price (Mumbai):
1. LXI - 3.77 Ex / 4.2 On Road (OR)
2. LXI CNG - 4.39 EX / 5.11 OR
3. VXI ABS & Air Bags - 4.39 EX / expect it to be around 5.11
Price from overdrive.

A bhpian had posted his initial report of his Wagon R LXI CNG, giving alomst 28 km/kg (ARAI - 26.9km/kg). This put me in thought why not buy a VXI model with the abs & Airbag and then convert it to a CNG one.

LXI CNG - 4.39 Ex/ 5.11 OR

• trim fabric
• chrome finish in instrumental panel
• silver finish in inside door handles
• electronic power steering
• front power windows
• driver seatbelt warning lamp

VXI With ABS + Airbags - 4.39 EX / 5.11 OR

• All features of LXI plus
• tilted steering
• rear power windows
• electrical ORVM
• front passenger under seat tray
• keyless entry
• dual srs airbag
• ABS
• security system
• body colored outside door handles

If i convert it to a cng one with a kit worth 35-40k. On road price might come to 5.3 to 5.5. Agreed i would be getting 26-28Km/Kg, as it uses 'intelligent-GPI technology' , but atleast 20-23 i will/should/must get.

So which would be a smart choice
The LXI CNG factory fitted one
(4.39 EX / 5.11 OR)
or
The VXI (ABS+ Airbags) with CNG kit
(4.39 EX / 5.11 plus 35K so price is - 4.74 EX / 5.46 OR )

Guess i have the safety guys in a limbo, go for the abs model but always a factory fitted is better, but the factory fitted model, no ABS+Airbags.

The only drawback i see is that i wont get the eye poping FE of a Factory car.

Wouldn't it be a smart choice for a guy driving to office doing 60 km/day and with a budget of 5L, which can be stretched to accomadate the CNG

Your Expert View's Please

[indianv2]

Originally Posted by ajay387

So which would be a smart choice
The LXI CNG factory fitted one
(4.39 EX / 5.11 OR)
or
The VXI (ABS+ Airbags) with CNG kit
(4.39 EX / 5.11 plus 35K so price is - 4.74 EX / 5.46 OR )

Hi Ajay387,

You are facing a dilemma many of us face. At least that is what I too wonder since the WagonR seems to be my next logical upgrade.

1. If the running of the car is more city oriented, go for the LXi with factory fitted CNG.

2. The WagonR factory fitted CNG kit is a sequential injection one which offers performance which is very close to Petrol.

3. The option of VXi + CNG based on the rates quoted by you seem to be a normal open/closed loop kit. I have this type of kit installed in my Alto VX 1.1.

4. However hard you may try, the external CNG fitment will not match factory standards. Factory fit is factory fit.

5. Maruti offers a total of 2+2 years of warranty (to be bought separately) on the whole car (including the CNG kit). Do check this with the dealer/MUL.

6. In addition to the safety features, the VXi trim brings in some goodies. Read rear wiper, tachometer, integrated music system.

7. Look at your priorities - saving money (price difference of LXi vs VXi, peace of mind (4 year coverage), and irresistible performance (sequential injection CNG). You can use the saved money to get better tyres for added grip or splurge on alloys. Music system options are wide open too.

A friend of mine recently got an Alto K10. He had initially decided on buying the WagonR Green or Alto Green. The salesmen brainwashed him saying that CNG models ruin the engine in 3 years. They probably earn more from Petrol models I guess! I have seen CNG cars extensively in NCR, Argentina, Italy, and Germany. Pakistan too is a huge market for CNG. I would suggest that follow your heart with this decision. You won't be too wrong.

[bluevolt]

Hi ajay,

you are in quite a dilemma and I can understand it very well. See you can get a CNG kit in any car but you can’t get ABS, Airbags as aftermarket fitments. I strongly recommend you to go for VXi variant as we should never compromise on safety over economy (as I can see you prefer safety). You can get the car retrofitted with a CNG kit from a reputed installer and their will not be an issue at all. You can get the kit installed from the dealer only for warranty purposes. Well it’s true that the factory fitment is best but you can’t get ABS/airbags from outside. Hope this helps.

[SAS]

Originally Posted by ajay387

So which would be a smart choice
The LXI CNG factory fitted one
(4.39 EX / 5.11 OR)
or
The VXI (ABS+ Airbags) with CNG kit
(4.39 EX / 5.11 plus 35K so price is - 4.74 EX / 5.46 OR )

Guess i have the safety guys in a limbo, go for the abs model but always a factory fitted is better, but the factory fitted model, no ABS+Airbags.

The only drawback i see is that i wont get the eye poping FE of a Factory car.

Wouldn't it be a smart choice for a guy driving to office doing 60 km/day and with a budget of 5L, which can be stretched to accomadate the CNG

Your Expert View's Please

I would definitely recommend paying up more and going for the factory fitted kit. I myself am running CNG on my Alto since the past 14 months having driven over 24k kms on CNG, and while it's been a satisfying experience, I would have gone for the factory fitted one if I had the choice (when I converted, Maruti didn't rollout the green variants as yet). The benefits of Maruti's factory fitted kit are:
1. Sequential ignition. This results in reduced emissions (the greenest car on the roads), higher average and improved performance.
2. Auto switch between petrol and CNG once the temperature rises. In a normal retrofitted car, it is dependent upon engine RPM and not engine temperature.
3. Hardened valve seats and valve guides. This is critical since the engine runs hotter and drier in CNG mode.
4. Better plumbing and corrosion resistant piping offered by Maruti. I'm facing little rusts in certain joints after just 14 months.
5. Improved / hardened rear suspension. This is extremely critical when you are going with the rear seats occupied since the rear sags with the 65kg tank plus the 10kg brace to hold it in place. Options for people like me who retrofitted it are to use spacers or stiffer springs, but we shall never get the perfect balance / original feel of the suspension since the suspension geometry is now altered.

Overall it's upto personal choice but Maruti's CNG product is so very well rounded and researched, and much better than others like Chevrolet and Tata who have come out with CNG variants and much much better than retrofitting...

[aaggoswami]

Go for LXI if you are going to drive in city only. If you have highway trips, you may consider VMi and then installing CNG.

The advantage of LXI with factory fitted CNG kit is that the performance it offers is quite near to petrol. The shift from petrol to CNG and CNG to petrol is also almost seamless.

One more advantage is about suspension. Maruti has upgraded or rather stiffened the rear suspension of factory fitted CNG Waggie to take additional load of CNG cylinder.

Then comes the advantage of changes made to engine. As mentioned by somebody on this thread, the valve seats are changed which is an advantage.

But at the same time, we have 1992 M800 converted to CNG and that car is running CNG since long without any problem. The car still has that strong bottom end present in CNG mode. That car has run more than 40K kms. now on CNG. We rarely use petrol mode in that car.

I am sure that even if you go in for VXi and then install CNG kit, you will still have 5-6 years of operational life. There are many who have changed to CNG after purchase. I have seen CNG equipped Baleno, Honda City, K10 Wagon R ( yes, those who purchased before the factory fitted car launch ), K10 Estilo, A-star, Zen, Santro, i20, i10, etc. All of them run fine for quite a lot of distance.

I would rather say that if this car is for only city driving ( mainly ), go for LXi, but if you intend to do reasonable highway runs, then VXi. I would rather have a car with a bit less engine life, but for highway, ABS + Airbags is a must for highways.

And in case you buy LXI, you still can get the music system of Vxi installed for around Rs 8-9K ( do confirm, I am not that sure of this ). But one thing I will tell you is that if you purchase LXI, the first thing you need to do is tyre upgrade. The stock tyres are just not enough.

[CARDEEP]

@ajay387

There are few problems with the new car that you want to get CNG fitted from outside, rather than the model with factory fitted CNG:
1. The dealer may not entertain your warranty claim
2. There could be noticeable power drop in the car due to CNG, if the Lambda sensor is not installed.

But, once you get the CNG fitted in your car you will get habitual to the CNG mode of driving (& monetary savings of course).

Since you want to the car with safety features, let me suggest that you may go for the VXi model & avoid the extended warranty for the car, as it would be useless in this case.

Whatever Maruti claims that it "has upgraded or rather stiffened the rear suspension of factory fitted CNG WagonR to take additional load of CNG cylinder" is bunch of lies, as how could a cylinder that weighs around 15 kg when empty & 27 kg when filled would affect the suspension of the car. Aren't fat/ heavy people sitting in the car at times, or don't families load the cars' dicky with heavy domestic goods, & do companies modify the suspension of the vehicle (s) in such cases.

Please also note that you are in the wrong thread. This query should be in Which Cars - Hatchbacks" section.

[ajay387]

@CARDEEP and all
I have mentioned in the first post that i am not into buying, it just struck me when doing info gathering for my relative, This is just a discussion, on which would be a smart buy.

If still , then moedrators are requested to move the thread to the correct section.

as how could a cylinder that weighs around 15 kg when empty & 27 kg when filled would affect the suspension of the car.

That good argument , and Point should be noted !

@bluevolt

You can get the kit installed from the dealer only for warranty purposes. Well it’s true that the factory fitment is best but you can’t get ABS/airbags from outside.

Thats the biggest . Have to choose between Benefits of Safety features or Benefits of factory kit.

@SAS & indianv2
True, Benefits of factory kit are


Finally its as "aaggoswami" puts it

I would rather say that if this car is for only city driving ( mainly ), go for LXi, but if you intend to do reasonable highway runs, then VXi. I would rather have a car with a bit less engine life, but for highway, ABS + Airbags is a must for highways.

[aaggoswami]

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

@ajay387

Whatever Maruti claims that it "has upgraded or rather stiffened the rear suspension of factory fitted CNG WagonR to take additional load of CNG cylinder" is bunch of lies, as how could a cylinder that weighs around 15 kg when empty & 27 kg when filled would affect the suspension of the car.

Err, are you sure about this data ? That the CNG cylinder would only weigh 15 kg when empty ? IMO, CNG is stored at much higher pressure than LPG and weight of even domestic LPG cylinder is around 15 kg when empty and around 29-30 kg with LPG installed in it.

When we had installed the CNG cylinder in our M800, the suspension did come down significantly. So much so that we are running with one support leaf spring at each rear wheel.

IMO, the weight of cylinder cannot be just 15 kg. Will try to update myself, but I have my reservations regarding 15kg weight.


EDIT :
Petrol only Waggie K10 kerb weight = 860 kg.
Petrol + CNG waggie K10 Kerb weight = 960 kg.

Sure they CNG cylinder weighs in more than 15 kg without fuel.
IIRC, its in the range of 80-90 kg cylinder only weight ( or may be in range of 60-80 kg ). Last I read was around 90 kg, but would like to get myself updated.
If possible, others do confirm this, but its sure more than just 15 kg.

[CARDEEP]

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

Err, are you sure about this data ? That the CNG cylinder would only weigh 15 kg when empty ? IMO, CNG is stored at much higher pressure than LPG and weight of even domestic LPG cylinder is around 15 kg when empty and around 29-30 kg with LPG installed in it.

When we had installed the CNG cylinder in our M800, the suspension did come down significantly. So much so that we are running with one support leaf spring at each rear wheel.

IMO, the weight of cylinder cannot be just 15 kg. Will try to update myself, but I have my reservations regarding 15kg weight.


EDIT :
Petrol only Waggie K10 kerb weight = 860 kg.
Petrol + CNG waggie K10 Kerb weight = 960 kg.

Sure they CNG cylinder weighs in more than 15 kg without fuel.
IIRC, its in the range of 80-90 kg cylinder only weight ( or may be in range of 60-80 kg ). Last I read was around 90 kg, but would like to get myself updated.
If possible, others do confirm this, but its sure more than just 15 kg.

This is a good observation.
But, I do not feel that variance in weight should be this much (100 kg), just because of the CNG cylinder. The whole setup must be around 30 kg IMO. This is because my MAMA (Mother's Brother) runs a hardware unit, where they use the industrial gas (probably methane) for welding purposes. The weight of an empty cylinder, the bigger one, in not that much (say 25-30 kgs). Hence, I assume the weight of the CNG kit (12-14 kg capacity variety) weight should be around 27-30 kg. I will also try to confirm the same from a CNG installer.

[ajay387]

Checked this website, which provides details of the various kinds of cng cylinders available.
Products-cylinders-CNG-cylinder-for-vehicle

For a 65 litre capacity tank it can weigh
1. NZS CNG-2 Composite Cylinder for Vehicle = 75 Kg
2. ISO11439 CNG-2 Composite Cylinder for Vehicle = 56 , 57 , 53 Kg
All weights without the valve!

If this turns out to be true, then its as good as a person sitting in the boot. Need to be careful only when fully loaded (5 Persons).

So no worries of stiffer springs, if u don't fully load the car always

CARDEEP

[SAS]

Originally Posted by ajay387

Checked this website, which provides details of the various kinds of cng cylinders available.
Products-cylinders-CNG-cylinder-for-vehicle

For a 65 litre capacity tank it can weigh
1. NZS CNG-2 Composite Cylinder for Vehicle = 75 Kg
2. ISO11439 CNG-2 Composite Cylinder for Vehicle = 56 , 57 , 53 Kg
All weights without the valve!

If this turns out to be true, then its as good as a person sitting in the boot. Need to be careful only when fully loaded (5 Persons).

So no worries of stiffer springs, if u don't fully load the car always

CARDEEP

That's true. A cylinder with a water capacity of 65 litres (enough for around 9-10 kgs gas) would weigh around 65-70 kgs depending on the brand. Plus the weight of the harness which holds the tank, etc and you're looking at the weight of an adult, that too sitting in the boot! I've faced this first hand when I converted to CNG.

[CARDEEP]

I guess you people are right with the cylinder weight stats. But this is on the higher side IMO. Though I understand that there are Cylinders that are made from fibrous material, but, not available as freely in India (as in Pak, which has the highest ratio of CNG driven vehicles).

Thank you all.

[shridhar.s.i]

Greetings,
I read the thread and here is my take on it
You are facing the same dilemma which i did but i went with Vxi and booked it last week
Here is the deal, when you buy WagonR CNG you get company fitted kit with all clearances in place and no worries of Warranty and also lets face it, it is a better kit with ample testing already done by the company
But here are the negatives to it
It is 60K costlier, even if you buy a Vxi (I am assuming only city drive as majority hence not suggesting the ABS version) it is only 30K costlier than Lxi, now as you said if you go for an aftermarket CNG kit it will still work out to 35K max which is still comparable to Lxi-CNG model
but now you get a Vxi with all required features loaded + CNG which does not burn a hole into your pocket
Also many people keep saying that CNG being a dry fuel reduces the life of the car, it maybe true (need to research further if this is a hoax), hence you can drive the car for say first 3000 KMS on petrol and once engine sets in, go for CNG kit, this way you try and get the best of both worlds

But here is one more observation, make sure you have a decent CNG pump in your area to fill it up with proper quantity / quality else i have heard from my team bhp folks horrendous stories that the bunks fill hot air alongwith CNG whereby reducing quantity of CNG and hence you will endup getting less mileage and a damage to engine is also on the charts

Hope this helps,

[T Y A G I]

Hello Team,

I want to fit the CNG kit in my January 2011 Model Wagon R Vxi without ABS.It has run almost 3000 Km. I have asked at certain fitting centres and they say that Lovato CNG kit is around 22500 INR and some Tomesto brand costs around 40000 INR. The dealer told me that Lovato kit may start giving problem after 17-18 months of car getting off at low speeds.Also he told me that in case if price is no constraint then go for the Tomesto.It gives the performance equivalent to Petrol.

Kindly advice since its becoming useless to drive a car on petrol with 4.5 Rs/km cost in the city when I can see that most of the people are getting their brand new vehicles converted to CNG.My car gives around 15+ Km in city driving and 19+ on highway.I live in Ghaziabad and the dealer told me the prices are inclusive of the RTO paper work.

Regards,
Lalit Tyagi

[shridhar.s.i]

Hey Lalit, the Lovato brand has not had a very bad name here in Pune, i am not an expert but even i want to fit CNG hence went thru MNGL site and found Tomasetto brand to be there but Lovato is missing, this must mean something and i suggest if you have a regular running of more than 1000KM you will recover the cost in 1 year or so

My vote is for Tomasetto Achille, i will be fitting one around November