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Old 16th January 2013, 23:51   #136
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Default Re: Deciding on a budget diesel hatchback

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You are true. The Ritz is much VFM over the Swift, but it has been skipped more on the basis of looks by all members in the family. The Ritz, Indica, Fabia, Pulse, Punto and the Sail are the ones we skipped all-together. The Punto and the Pulse just because we have the closest dealer/service 70 kms far :(
Too bad and too true about the looks! I have been harping about Ritz especially when its needed for an elderly person, thanks to its brilliant ingress and egress.

If the elderly person has to drive the same, then it can be a concern, because the placement and angle of pedals and tall dash. But if most case, he is to take the back seat, then nothing like it.

I got one for my dad (petrol LXI). He used to crib about the looks, but now slowly the comfort and VFM aspect has grown on to him, esp because, mostly he is driven around.

Even as I drive the car, the tall boy design and the capability to go over potholes, impresses me more and more.
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Old 18th January 2013, 11:00   #137
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Default Re: Deciding on a budget diesel hatchback

I also agree that for elderly a "Tall Boy" design of the Ritz, makes life that bit easier getting in and out of the vehicle. Please give it a serious consideration.

While Renault is selling well, Nissan sales are not upto mark and the brand may soon play a second fiddle to Renault models (unlike Skoda which has a healthy competition with its WV siblings).
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Old 18th January 2013, 11:28   #138
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Default Re: Deciding on a budget diesel hatchback

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Folks, our family is looking for a diesel hatch to keep it long terms. Resale is not too much on our minds, but the fuel prices are. We have only close to 1k kms running per month. Maybe it can increase by another couple of hundred. But I, being a die hard fan of diesel engines with low end grunt, have convinced dad to go for a diesel. So diesel it is, unless anybody succeed in changing my mind, sighting upcoming fuel costs.
Good luck in choosing your car in advance. The way I see it, the only reason you should be going the diesel way is if you want the low-end torque and higher FE compared to petrols. But please note that with yesterday's decision to hike diesel prices by 50ps/litre every month, in a year you are looking at a possible diesel price of 55-60 bucks/litre, very close to petrol. This means the extra 1.5L you spend over the petrol sibling of the same car, will take longer to break-even, higher maintenance costs left out for the time being. For 1000 kms a month in the city, you must really consider a petrol also. I would give the Swift ZXi a serious thought. It fits your requirements, plus you get a fully loaded variant at the same budget, and the K12 engine is a delight to use, barring the low end sluggishness which is negligible. The maintenance and associated costs of a petrol swift are close to nothing.


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Can anybody give me some of the real negatives in going for the Micra. Dad is running on 64 and he just loves the ingress-egress and the ease of driving and operation of the Micra. But, the point why I came over to this thread is the frugal numbers the Micra is doing. I am concerned about the 700 the Micra does in a month vs the 17000 the Swift does. Our previous purchases, the Matiz and the Baleno were quick to exit the market soon after we bought. Can anybody alleviate my concerns in going for a Nissan in the long term perspective? Please do share other thoughts too on the Micra XV vs Swift VDi.
The Micra XV is a really peppy car to drive around, and city traffic is dispatched effortlessly. If your car is going to frequent the city more, I would say the Micra is easier to drive than the Swift's laggy multijet. the only disadvantages I found with the Micra during my own diesel hatch hunt were :
- lack of dealership network strength. It is probably 5% of Maruti's dealership network. If your car is primarily within the city, this shouldnt be a major hindrance
- only driver airbag provided, and no ABS.
- styling, although this is subjective and won't matter much if your father is the one driving/owning the car


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You are true. The Ritz is much VFM over the Swift, but it has been skipped more on the basis of looks by all members in the family. The Ritz, Indica, Fabia, Pulse, Punto and the Sail are the ones we skipped all-together. The Punto and the Pulse just because we have the closest dealer/service 70 kms far :(
I would like to include the Figo here. It ticks all your requirements, is peppy to drive in the city, is a superhit seller (doesn't suffer from the 'flop' image of the Matiz) and aftersales support should be on par with your expectations. Plus, the titanium variant is well within your budget too.

I will make the battle more interesting/confusing for you :
Swift VDi v/s Swift ZXi v/s Nissan Micra v/s Ford Figo titanium v/s Ritz VDi (suggested by others here)

Last edited by KarthikK : 18th January 2013 at 11:37.
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Old 18th January 2013, 12:42   #139
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Default Re: Deciding on a budget diesel hatchback

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Originally Posted by KarthikK View Post
low-end torque and higher FE compared to petrols. But please note that with yesterday's decision to hike diesel prices by 50ps/litre every month, in a year you are looking at a possible diesel price of 55-60 bucks/litre, very close to petrol. This means the extra 1.5L you spend over the petrol sibling of the same car, will take longer to break-even, higher maintenance costs left out for the time being. For 1000 kms a month in the city, you must really consider a petrol also. I would give the Swift ZXi a serious thought.
You make so much sense here KarthikK. If I was in the market today for a Car, I just might steer clear of the diesels. With the cost difference in both of 1L+ it makes no point in going for a diesel if the running is less than 1,500kms a month. And I believe few would qualify for it & those with multiple Cars, fat chance. (So, what about you dude )

Of the petrols, the Swift has to be it. Frankly, there is no competition.

In the next 6 months, the diesel would be priced @ ~ Rs. 60 for a liter and petrol would somewhere close to ~Rs. 70. Equate the price difference of Rs. 1,00,000+ in purchase of a diesel Car over petrol (leaving cheaper service aside) and do your maths.

Drove a fantastic petrol Car yesterday and by the time, I reach 70 in a diesel, I shift to 5th, here I was doing 80 & was still in 2nd.

Please factor in lower FE, if you are a petrol-head. No, I am serious.

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Old 18th January 2013, 13:33   #140
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Default Re: Deciding on a budget diesel hatchback

Valid point on the Ritz. But it is one vehicle, all in our family, hate to look at. Especially the current face'down'. Not that I like the looks of the Micra, but there are others in our family who likes. And dad is fallen head over heels for the drive-ability it offers. And he personally felt the Micra had ease of ingress-egress. Not over the Ritz, we didn't check out the Ritz at all as we definitely will not be owning one.

Though I wanted to go for the Swift, I thought I will pass the preference of decision-making to dad who is currently running on 64 years. And the one point where the Swift scores more than the Micra is performance on higher speeds, which we will not be using much.

I liked the Liva too. Feels like driving a bigger vehicle, yet with complete ease. The steering was too good. Small yet perfectly weighted. The suspension was good to our liking. Had a bit of damped bounce which absorbed pot holes well. It is just the interiors that we couldn't digest for a ~7 lac vehicle. It finally boiled down to Liva interiors vs Toyota service. And finally interiors won. Liva out.

i20 is good on gizmos, but we are not keen on gizmos alone. And not much gizmos come with the model we were looking at. Not that it does not offer practicality but the ease of driving is not up to the mark of others. The front seats hug you too much that we felt cramped. No, we are not obese. The clutch of the test drive i20 was set such that it jumped at the lowest point of release. Dad was really embarrassed stalling in traffic, on more than a couple of occasions, to find the right release point. And I felt the A/C still have loads of room for improvement.

The Figo. I was thinking how Ford could practically price it lower to the competition. It is not a too small car. Seats offer good support. Space at the rear is not an issue. So is with the boot. A/C felt average. But we just didn't find the well praised zero lag on the engine. Floor the pedal on an incline (yes, we tested all vehicles on an incline as it is one of our daily requirement) and it takes its sweet time to spool up the turbo. I personally felt the Polo and the Beat to be marginally better. Further, Ford service stories at our place are scary. We will buy a Ford only if it is an exceptional vehicle. Figo is good, but nothing exceptional for us. At the showroom, the sales persons felt not keen in selling.

Next was the Polo. I had driven the Polo earlier and felt to be good on comfort. This stood true this time too. But one thing that I changed opinion this time round was the gear shift. Last time it was heaven and now it felt not so. There is considerable turbo lag and the motor felt like a tractor. Nothing exceptional again. Service intervals are a good 15k kms apart but cost approx 7-8k as per the SA. Bye bye Polo.

Beat. All in our family were dead against the Beat as we had a petrol Beat for a short period of time. It was no where confidence inspiring on drive-ability or on quality. My report on the same are available elsewhere on the forum. It was my pestering that we decided to check the diesel Beat, as I thought the improvements on gas recharged shocks, diesel torque, EPS etc could make a good difference. My goodness, we couldn't check anything else on the vehicle as the 3 cylinders were that noisy on the inside. I just wanted to end the test drive. So one thing has been repeatedly evident to me. Never comment vehemently or form solid opinion on a vehicle unless you have personally test driven it.

The Swift felt good, but we both, dad and me, didn't feel any exceptional improvement over our current car - the Baleno. No, I didn't mean to say the Swift is not good. I mean, there is definitely some lineage connecting the two and felt it similar to the Baleno. So, we decided that if we are to keep the Swift, the Baleno will definitely be sold. And the single most point that bowled us over was the zero-lag on the Micra. The driver seating position and visibility too is too good for the women folks and the elderly. The few gizmos (not the blue-tooth or USB things, but the key-less entry, key-less start and auto folding mirrors) on the Micra too felt good. The price too is on the average of the competition. The one thing that I hate on the Micra is the sloppy gear shift lever. It has got lot of play and feels flimsy though it slots correctly. The other thing is the rear seat supports. Both the head support and the under-thigh support. The under-thigh support is non existent. The head support is a recent add, I guess. But is not too great. We had been in the back seat of a petrol Micra long back with no head supports. We were having stiff necks after the 150 kms. I'm also sad that I don't get the ABS too.

So the bottom line is that we booked the Micra last day and the Swift VDi is readily available at our place. So it is just the final plunge we have to take.

We had registered for the test drives online from the web-sites of the manufacturers. Hyundai were the first to contact us next day, but it was the Nissan who came an hour before Hyundai another day later. We went to the showrooms of Toyota, Ford, Maruti, Chevrolet and Volkswagen without waiting further so that we get a back to back feel of the cars.

Disclaimer: I wanted to put out a whole new thread on my back to back driving experience done in a single day, but thought this would suffice as most of the cars are well documented. My opinions may not be too accurate as ours was a small test drive in the range of 15-20 minutes and no high speed abilities were checked. No offence meant to any car owners.

Edit: Petrol vs Diesel. I am a diesel-head. This time round, we wanted to experience a diesel leaving the initial economics away. But economics of running is and will be playing on our mind. I am guessing a Nissan will not be heavy on maintenance. So leaving the maintenance apart, if we consider 12000 kms of running per year, the difference in diesel to petrol cost will come to INR 20000 per year. This is how: Assuming average FE to be 13kmpl for the petrol one and 16kmpl for the diesel car and cost of petrol to be INR 70 and diesel to be INR 60. So, the initial 1lac premium we pay for the diesel will be compensated only in another 5 years. I think we are ready for it, foreseeing (can go the other way too) the running to go higher than the 12000 kms per year. Either way, we are expecting to keep the vehicle long term.
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Old 18th January 2013, 14:10   #141
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Default Re: Deciding on a budget diesel hatchback

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With the cost difference in both of 1L+ it makes no point in going for a diesel if the running is less than 1,500kms a month. And I believe few would qualify for it & those with multiple Cars, fat chance. (So, what about you dude )
Me? I do 70 kms a day on the MultiJet (~2000 km a month), so diesel still works better for me as a daily drive. I spend close to 4-5k on office commute on diesel, with the multiJet returning 15-16 kmpl. With a petrol car giving me 9-10 kmpl, I would end up spending 12-13k per month . With 1000kms a month, the difference won't be so high I guess, between petrol and diesel expenses. I second your opinion

Quote:
Drove a fantastic petrol Car yesterday and by the time, I reach 70 in a diesel, I shift to 5th, here I was doing 80 & was still in 2nd.
Was this 'petrol car' a T-Jet again? *winks*

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Old 18th January 2013, 14:36   #142
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Default Re: Deciding on a budget diesel hatchback

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Of the petrols, the Swift has to be it. Frankly, there is no competition.
Absolutely. The Brio was touted as a competitor to the K12, but let me tell you that having driven both on a regular basis (my own K12 VXi and my friends Brio SMT), the feeling is quite different for a discerning driver. The Swift has a relatively bigger car feel, and with my 195 upsized tires, a heavier and delightfully meaty steering (which may not be everyone cup of tea), with a lovely snarly engine north of 2000RPM. On the other hand, the Brio is more about ease of use and darting in and out of traffic, with a light and convenient steering, and a very smooth engine.

The gearbox on the Swift is a different league altogether as compared to the
Brio though.

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......the K12 engine is a delight to use, barring the low end sluggishness which is negligible. The maintenance and associated costs of a petrol swift are close to nothing.

Bang on . My first paid service last month cost me Rs. 1300. The K12 is indeed a delight to use, and the weaker low end (which I found problematic in the beginning) is no longer an issue, since I am now used to keeping the revs a notch higher in second gear and third gear. That snappy gearbox, light clutch and high revs (quite an aural delight when the revs re kept high) and the creamy power delivery is a heady combination. Nothing to beat it in its category on a twisty flowing road.

By the way, Karthik, I live quite close by to you if not mistaken (BTM 1st stage). Would someday love to check out your Tjet monster

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Old 18th January 2013, 15:56   #143
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Default Re: Deciding on a budget diesel hatchback

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You make so much sense here KarthikK. If I was in the market today for a Car, I just might steer clear of the diesels. With the cost difference in both of 1L+ it makes no point in going for a diesel if the running is less than 1,500kms a month. And I believe few would qualify for it & those with multiple Cars, fat chance. (So, what about you dude )

Of the petrols, the Swift has to be it. Frankly, there is no competition.
I would agree to each and every point there. I am a petrol head and the fun you get driving a petrol car, diesel can never reach those levels of pleasure.

Now Considering we finally get you tilted towards a petrol , the point is what is your priority. For that matter, there are only 3 hatchbacks worthy of a competion today in the market.
1. All Rounder Swift
2. Small, peppy and FTD Brio
3. Tried, tested and featuristic i10.

I own a Brio but have no intentions to market it here for this reason alone, instead i would stress you to get your priorities channelized before deciding.
1. Swift : True all rounder, top end makes max sense. k12 and ivtec run pretty close.
2. Brio: Short, easy to handle and amazingly refined. Nowwhere feels lagging being compared to k12 except high speed handling and practicality.
3. i10: Body roll, to common on road like swift, excellent engine, good to drive.

Pick the one which suits you best.

All the best.
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Old 18th January 2013, 16:35   #144
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Default Re: Deciding on a budget diesel hatchback

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So the bottom line is that we booked the Micra last day and the Swift VDi is readily available at our place. So it is just the final plunge we have to take.
Best of luck for the final choice. I know, its so difficult sometimes. As I had been in your place for 3 long months with multiple test drives for the search of diesel city commute, with no compromise on ABS. My requirement was strictly ride comfort at the back as the vehicle would be mostly driven for my wife and son. Finally selected Liva GD just 1.5 months back with 6.65L OTR. I was very happy with the choice. But one ride in a Punto sports, and I am spoiled. I don't like my Liva now as I used to do earlier. Sad that I can't sell my 2000 km run Liva now as I will have to bear a big loss. Yes, 8.25L OTR for Punto sports is not really in the domain of a budget hatch, but its the best hatchback I have ever driven.
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Old 19th January 2013, 06:17   #145
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Default Re: Deciding on a budget diesel hatchback

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Edit: Petrol vs Diesel. I am a diesel-head. This time round, we wanted to experience a diesel leaving the initial economics away. But economics of running is and will be playing on our mind. I am guessing a Nissan will not be heavy on maintenance. So leaving the maintenance apart, if we consider 12000 kms of running per year, the difference in diesel to petrol cost will come to INR 20000 per year. This is how: Assuming average FE to be 13kmpl for the petrol one and 16kmpl for the diesel car and cost of petrol to be INR 70 and diesel to be INR 60. So, the initial 1lac premium we pay for the diesel will be compensated only in another 5 years. I think we are ready for it, foreseeing (can go the other way too) the running to go higher than the 12000 kms per year. Either way, we are expecting to keep the vehicle long term.
Happens. I won't be surprised if I put a similar rationale in my next Car purchase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarthikK View Post

Was this 'petrol car' a T-Jet again? *winks*
No, a humble A-Star with that fantastic revvy 3 pot engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiv_1984 View Post
1. All Rounder Swift
2. Small, peppy and FTD Brio
3. Tried, tested and featuristic i10.

I own a Brio but have no intentions to market it here for this reason alone, instead i would stress you to get your priorities channelized before deciding.
1. Swift : True all rounder, top end makes max sense. k12 and ivtec run pretty close.
2. Brio: Short, easy to handle and amazingly refined. Nowwhere feels lagging being compared to k12 except high speed handling and practicality.
3. i10: Body roll, to common on road like swift, excellent engine, good to drive.
No offense, but I would discount the i10. It doesn't appeal & is beginning to get a bit long in the tooth. If the i20 fits the budget, nothing like it.

The Brio is a fantastic Car I must say. Typical Honda. If I happen to buy a petrol someday, would consider a Honda

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Originally Posted by sups View Post
But one ride in a Punto sports, and I am spoiled. I don't like my Liva now as I used to do earlier. Sad that I can't sell my 2000 km run Liva now as I will have to bear a big loss. Yes, 8.25L OTR for Punto sports is not really in the domain of a budget hatch, but its the best hatchback I have ever driven.
Thanks for being honest & welcome to the club. Once you get used to Europeans, it is hard to go back to others.

Whenever you decide to get another Car next time, please take a TD of all Cars.

This is what springs to my mind reading your post
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Old 19th January 2013, 06:57   #146
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Default Re: Deciding on a budget diesel hatchback

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But one ride in a Punto sports, and I am spoiled.
In fact, the local dealer arranged a Punto test drive at my place yesterday. I had been trying this for a few days. In-spite of repeated questioning, the sales person was saying it is a test car. I definitely know it is not. The speedo is disconnected and odo had an H symbol. And the car TC registered. I pointed out all these and they still maintained their stand. Anyway, I could not contest them more on this and decided to do a short test drive. They had bought the vehicle from 150 km away.

The car occasionally had some sort of click sound while accelerating in first. Doors are heavy and to be frank, the thud is nowhere near to the old Skoda Octavia. Same with even the Polo. But I liked the overall plastic and fabric quality on the Punto than any other I tested. Just crank up the seat height adjuster and you come to know the quality. Far better than the Polo's. But this car had the hazard button panel out of its recess. The seats have too much support on the lower back which I felt not so great. I'm 5'7". May be such seats are perfect for the long drive. The clutch is the softest among all I have tested but have the longest throw too. The accelerator pedal too have a long travel. Driver visibility is not as great as in other cars. Since the front windshield has more slant, while looking through the lower most portion of the glass, the road looked a bit wavery. This is only due to the glass. The A/C is a chiller. Best among the lot. Lag is present. Engine felt much refined than most others. NVH is class leading. I felt that the ride quality was affected by high air pressure. Turning radius is nothing to write home about. The steering needed constant attention unlike the Liva which I felt to be perfectly weighted.

The Tata-Fiat sales person had given wrong information on the Punto's price yesterday. Close to 1 lac more was quoted for the Dynamic variant. I checked the web and corrected them today. The Dynamic comes close to 7 lacs which we felt good. If the car was meant solely for me, I would have taken pride in owning her, considering a service outlet is soon opening at my place. But alas, it is not the case.

If you have noted, my points above are mostly centered on drive-ability and ease of use because that was among of our major requirement. FE too was a factor. Even my requirement of design and looks were overlooked or should I say under-looked. I should also admit that may be even safety has been compromised.

It is to be mentioned that I couldn't distinguish any of the car much on the comfort factor - the ride quality. Our local roads are blessed with pot holes and I tried to check all the cars on such roads, but all fared similar except for the Liva and Polo. I mean, I couldn't find any telling difference between the cars. Still, I would like to know the opinion / rating of other members on this - the ride quality at low to medium speeds over pot holes.

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Happens. I won't be surprised if I put a similar rationale in my next Car purchase.

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Old 19th January 2013, 19:26   #147
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Default Re: Deciding on a budget diesel hatchback

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It is to be mentioned that I couldn't distinguish any of the car much on the comfort factor - the ride quality. Our local roads are blessed with pot holes and I tried to check all the cars on such roads, but all fared similar except for the Liva and Polo.
Other than ride quality, hope your father likes the space in the back seat as well. Because that is another aspect you should account esp. if your family does long distances routinely.
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Old 19th January 2013, 20:21   #148
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Default Re: Deciding on a budget diesel hatchback

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Other than ride quality, hope your father likes the space in the back seat as well. Because that is another aspect you should account esp. if your family does long distances routinely.
Long distances will be mostly done by 2 in the car. No, I am not at all impressed by the Micra's back seats even though they have provided head rests on the diesel. Or was it a recent addition? I had cramped necks from my friend's petrol Micra, which had practically nonexistent head supports, over a 150km drive. Even if the whole family is doing long drives, dad will mostly be seated in the driver or passenger seat. I bet he won't be a bit comfortable at the back. But thinking about it, he never sat at the back for the test drive. It was me who checked out the rear bench. Anyway I'll ask him to consider this point again. Thanks.
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Old 21st January 2013, 17:19   #149
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Default Re: Deciding on a budget diesel hatchback

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Originally Posted by thoma View Post
It is to be mentioned that I couldn't distinguish any of the car much on the comfort factor - the ride quality. Our local roads are blessed with pot holes and I tried to check all the cars on such roads, but all fared similar except for the Liva and Polo. I mean, I couldn't find any telling difference between the cars. Still, I would like to know the opinion / rating of other members on this - the ride quality at low to medium speeds over pot holes.
One of the threads to refer to:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...bad-roads.html (Hatchback with the best ride quality on bad roads?)

And in that thread, please refer to the following GTO's post:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post2967159 (Hatchback with the best ride quality on bad roads?)

My experience is summarized here:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post2967027 (Hatchback with the best ride quality on bad roads?)

Make no mistake that you can't get a thottle response of Micra diesel in any other car at city speeds. Liva, Figo are also good, but not like Micra. I rejected Micra due to lack of ABS, inadequate rear seats, relatively weak brakes and little bumpy ride at the back. Else, its a great car to drive. Also, Micra will give you the best mileage followed by Liva.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thoma View Post

The car occasionally had some sort of click sound while accelerating in first. Doors are heavy and to be frank, the thud is nowhere near to the old Skoda Octavia. Same with even the Polo. But I liked the overall plastic and fabric quality on the Punto than any other I tested. Just crank up the seat height adjuster and you come to know the quality. Far better than the Polo's. But this car had the hazard button panel out of its recess. The seats have too much support on the lower back which I felt not so great. I'm 5'7". May be such seats are perfect for the long drive. The clutch is the softest among all I have tested but have the longest throw too. The accelerator pedal too have a long travel. Driver visibility is not as great as in other cars. Since the front windshield has more slant, while looking through the lower most portion of the glass, the road looked a bit wavery. This is only due to the glass. The A/C is a chiller. Best among the lot. Lag is present. Engine felt much refined than most others. NVH is class leading. I felt that the ride quality was affected by high air pressure. Turning radius is nothing to write home about. The steering needed constant attention unlike the Liva which I felt to be perfectly weighted.
Punto ride is little stiff at low speed. That may feel a little harsh to some people. But lack of body roll in punto significantly adds to the comfort. Once the speed goes up a little more, punto is amazing. Ofcourse there is certain amount of lag in punto, but surprisingly I did not find much difficulty to drive inside city due to good torque availability. I felt that a little longer test drive in a punto is required to realize its potential.

If I wanted to buy a totally self-driven city car (without bothering ride quality at the back), I would have bought a Figo. A fun to drive car, VFM, with very good steering response.

Testdrive again all the cars, if you feel so. And let us know what you bought.

Why can't car makers make a diesel hatch with throttle response of a micra, ride & build quality of a punto, interior of i20 and space of Liva/Sail UVA ?
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Old 1st February 2013, 10:15   #150
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Default Re: Deciding on a budget diesel hatchback

Quote:
Originally Posted by sups View Post
If I wanted to buy a totally self-driven city car (without bothering ride quality at the back), I would have bought a Figo. A fun to drive car, VFM, with very good steering response.

Testdrive again all the cars, if you feel so. And let us know what you bought.
Thanks for the links. As of now, we are going with the Micra. Have booked one and am impatiently waiting. Meanwhile, the price has been increased by 10k too.

I really don't know why I differ so much in opinion on the Figo. I felt that the Figo had the worst turbo lag among the ones tested.
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