Wagon R CNG vs Beat Diesel

[phamilyman]

Originally Posted by bluevolt

it will be safe also. Rear ending in a CNG car can be dangerous especially for a WagonR. l.

agree overall but must call you out on this one.

In the 12 years that Delhi has had CNG - can you give me ONE incident where a car getting rear ended had any additional damage because CNG was installed? Even the ones that exploded courtesy faulty kits - their cylinders were intact. So this old canard is just not true boss!

[bluevolt]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

agree overall but must call you out on this one.

In the 12 years that Delhi has had CNG - can you give me ONE incident where a car getting rear ended had any additional damage because CNG was installed? Even the ones that exploded courtesy faulty kits - their cylinders were intact. So this old canard is just not true boss!

Agree there is no accident in my knowledge but this is a one good reason because of which I am avoiding CNG kits or CNGfied cars and recommended the same to other too.

[smartcat]

Originally Posted by TheSandman

Im looking for a decently priced (about 4.5L ex showroom) hatchback for within the city commute; hence a three pot might be preferable.
Daily run will be a minimum of about 26kms – I currently clock approximately 700-1000 kms a month.

Before the petrol heads grumble about another penny pincher who is only looking for fuel efficiency; this will be my second car which will be used only within the city and hence must be cheap to run. For highway runs I will be using the Esteem, but some amount of highway capability from the new hatch wouldn’t be something I’d frown upon.

Why one car for the city and another one for the highway?

How about selling the Esteem and buying something like Ford Figo diesel (fits the budget, large boot space, esteem beating handling) or a Vista diesel (fits the budget, large interior space, esteem beating ride quality)?

But if you insist on keeping the Esteem, then of the two, my vote would go for Chevrolet Beat diesel. When its time to sell, it will probably hold its value better.

[phamilyman]

Originally Posted by bluevolt

Agree there is no accident in my knowledge but this is a one good reason because of which I am avoiding CNG kits or CNGfied cars and recommended the same to other too.

12 years, and lakhs if not millions of CNG vehicles in that period have come and gone.

But not one incident so far. "Good" reason dada?

btw, maruti's diesel cars have fiberglass tanks. avoid them too - definitely more prone to explosion in an accident I say!!

[bluevolt]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

12 years, and lakhs if not millions of CNG vehicles in that period have come and gone.

But not one incident so far. "Good" reason dada?

btw, maruti's diesel cars have fiberglass tanks. avoid them too - definitely more prone to explosion in an accident I say!!

Ha! That's why we have all petrol cars.

Anyways let's help TC chosing right car for him rather going off topic.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by TheSandman

Hey Sankar, doing good buddy, much like you I've added 2 more wheels to my rides of late Buzz me on gtalk next time your online, lets catch up.

The reason I am avoiding running on petrol is I simply cant afford it. My office route is one of the worst routes in Bombay when it comes to traffic. I get 6kmpl in the esteem, a colleague gets 10kmpl in an Alto K10, literally choco block traffic most of the way.

I haven't test driven the Beat yet, have you? Any input from someone who owns one will be great! Reading through some reports on the forum

Beat Diesel would be a better car for you, if an Alto K10 is giving 10kmpl in that kind of traffic its pretty horrible. I like the looks of the Beat, its not a bad looker imho if that's one thing which is holding you back. With its size being almost similar to the Wagon R it would be handy in the city as well. Haven't heard anything bad about the Chevy service so far, and with their maintenance packages the ownership should be low cost.

I haven't test driven the Beat Diesel yet, i suggest you do. Btw with the Diesel torque city driving would be easier on your knee since you wouldn't have to keep shifting gears like in an underpowered CNG petrol. Get a test drive soon

What happened to your knee? Will ping you on Gtalk.

[thoma]

I will comment only about the Beat as I have never seen or been in a CNG, living down south.

If an Alto returns 10 kmpl on a route, I wonder what the Beat D is going to fetch you. I doubt whether the calculated 24 kmpl is ever achievable, even on highway drives. People have been reporting 16-17 kmpl as their lowest FE in our forum and I guess your route should take that figures down by another 1-2 kmpl. The route and traffic conditions is applicable to any vehicle too, but just wanted to let you know that the cost of running figures are definitely going up, practically.

I have not driven a diesel Beat, but I guess you will surely enjoy the occasional highway drives if speeds are not to exceed 90-100 kmph. City driving will be effortless due to good low end torque but you have to get adjusted to the low seating position and high dashboard in terms of visibility. I will definitely suggest you to please take a test drive of the Beat in the congested route for you to get a realistic feel.

[90BHP]

Originally Posted by TheSandman

Do you have any first hand info (personal or from a friend) about how expensive their A.S.S. is?

One of colleague owns a Beat Petrol & Optra both he only paid for consumables for the first 2-3 years, although I have to say he really takes prisitine care of his cars. So rough driving or revving or drags or anything sudden to the car. The bills have not been exorbitant as far as he states. Now I cant really comment on post the 3 years. Anyone else with their inputs ?

[ACM]

Actually there are 2 questions hidden within the original one.

Beat Vs Wagaon R - Assuming the same fuel
India seems to choose Wagon R (as it is a Maruti among other reasons) though the head and specs would always be in favour of Beat which is a more modern and better built product.

CNG vs Diesel
Actually for 1000 kms a month somehow still Petrol vehicles seem to make better sense so I would say neither. But yes between CNG and Diesel it is obvious that Diesel is much more convinent to live with as it is available everywhere and does not need specific planing for refuelling. Also a Diesel engine should in general last longer than a petrol one adapted to handle CNG as well. Lastly in stop go traffic again the diesel should perform better with and without AC.

Now when we combine the two questions above the joint answer is obviously in favour of Beat Diesel, but then it would also thrown up Petrol varients as an alternative. For 1000 kms a month the savings of CNG and Diesel both will not be enough to justify the switch. For a pure economy point of view on the other hand CNG WR will make more sence, but the -ves do not let me recommend it.

I would also agree with SmartCat and suggest that you sell both (esteem as well) and get a Ford Figo, or Tata Vista - all in diesel the overall experience and sense of space would be much better.

[TheSandman]

Sorry for the absence, had to undergo a medical procedure and was away from an internet connection.

Based on my apprehensions with the maintenance associated with a diesel, I did some reading up on the forum. Here are some of the things I came across:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post2556769 (Petrol versus diesel cars - reliability)

Originally Posted by Sutripta

I feel these will be slightly less reliable than the petrols simply because there is slightly more to go wrong.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post2559388 (Petrol versus diesel cars - reliability)

Originally Posted by coolvap

A diesel engine normally operates at a much higher compression ratio than its petrol counterpart. Other factors remaining identical, the higher compression ratio would lead to an early breakdown and comparatively higher maintenance of a diesel engine as compared to petrol.
Diesel engines require higher capacity batteries to start.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post2560560 (Petrol versus diesel cars - reliability)

Originally Posted by thermalpaste

4) Incorrect injection timing -- most service stations and workshops assume that it's easy to install a new timing belt on diesel cars. Little do they realise that the injection pump rotates a bit when they are installing a new timing belt. The only way to do this professionally is to get an injection sprocket lock for locking the cam and injection sprocket before removing the old timing belt. the engine gets noisier every time you miss a 'tooth' as far as timing is concerned. A noisier engine means the engine mounts will disintegrate faster and the crankshaft damper pulley may also get damaged due to the vibrations.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post2561387 (Petrol versus diesel cars - reliability)

Originally Posted by thoma

I am confused about the reliability of modern diesels for city use with quite a high number of engine start stops? Does frequent engine start stops harm the diesel engine more than a petrol engine?

Also if I'm not mistaken, you cant switch off a diesel engine immediately, there's something to do with the turbo; so does this also equate to not being able to switch off the engine frequently at traffic lights?

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post2609709 (Petrol versus diesel cars - reliability)

Originally Posted by thoma

I think I have to go against the tall claims by high mileage diesel owners, on the reliability of the diesels, going by these examples -
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ml#post2161144
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ml#post2605401
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ml#post2075181 (My VW Polo TDI Trendline at 2000 kms.)
A car is as reliable as its weakest components only. Going by the high costs involved in correcting an easily malfunction-able turbo, cylinder head, fuel pump or injector, can we conclude that the diesels are nowhere reliable as claimed?

So based on some reading on the forum, parts that can need replacing are (higher probability than on a petrol car) turbo, injector, timing belts, water pump, fuel pump, crank seal, tensioner, idler pulleys etc.
Granted the repair bills of the Beat will be no where near some of the exorbitant bills folks with Hyundai’s and Skoda’s have incurred, it’s still a slightly unsettling feeling.

Now I might be completely wrong, but my assumption from experience my experience with my LPG Esteem is that a petrol car running on gas will not entail as much “risk”.

While my Esteem was retro-fitted with an LPG kit albeit by Maruti it wasn’t a factory install; the Wagon R has a sequential kit, which means separate valves for CNG and Petrol among other benefits over my retro fitted kit, which should only promise a better experience. The power loss experienced during the test drive was negligible with the AC on.

Btw, I have located two 24hrs CNG pumps near my residence which means I can go there late in the night (on my way back from work) to refuel without having to wait in a line etc etc.

The requirement being for a commuter car reliability and cost of ownership are high up there on my list of requirements.

Are my fears at all justified? The car will be a long term affair and not something I will dispose off in a few years.

[carboy]

I have very rarely had more than 4 cars ahead of me in the CNG station (and the station has 2 pumps for cars - so effectively 2 cars ahead of me in the line). The Auto CNG lines are separate. I fill at the Mahanagar station on LBS Marg, Mulund West.

So I typically spend 5 minutes in the line & the maximum I have spent is 10 minutes.

And I think if you do the calculations, Diesel for 1000 kms/month may not be worth it, but CNG probably is. I paid 30000 for CNG conversion & I think that even if I was driving just 1000 km per month, I would breakeven at a year or max year and a half.

[neofromcapone]

Please have a look at the grid. I have only factored in the fuel cost. please add your emi (if taking a car loan for it).
you may also add the expected maintenance cost, incase of the Chevy Beat, you pay 17,500 for 45,000 kms or 3 years, all inclusive maintenance plan.

I opted for the Figo TDCi for the space over the Beat,
If I were single or had a bigger car, I would have gone for the Beat.
Average is based on my expectation in Bombay City traffic.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by neofromcapone

Please have a look at the grid. I have only factored in the fuel cost. please add your emi (if taking a car loan for it).
you may also add the expected maintenance cost, incase of the Chevy Beat, you pay 17,500 for 45,000 kms or 3 years, all inclusive maintenance plan.

Why are you using 10 as the CNG average? I get a 20+ average on CNG in my Swift.

[TheSandman]

Originally Posted by neofromcapone

Average is based on my expectation in Bombay City traffic.

AN FE of 10 is understated for a CNG vehicle, much more so for the Wagon R. The company quotes an Arai rating of 26kmpkg, so even if I normalize it to 1/3rd I ought to expect something about 17 at the minimum which gets it to a running cost of 2Rs/km.

[neofromcapone]

10 is what I am getting on the Eeco, Carboy, sending you a PM for the details to change my cng average.

@sandman, please adjust the numbers accordingly, as per carboy's swift figures.
new grid bellow.