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Old 8th June 2006, 14:33   #46
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Pretty simple if safety is the only concern. But then unfortunately that is not the way things work here in India - how else will you explain the high sales of the NHC ?
Verna was not seen there in the list.

Last edited by supremeBaleno : 8th June 2006 at 14:52.
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Old 8th June 2006, 14:54   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno
Yes, a 1.5 rating is real bad. But then as people pointed out earlier, the test was on a car without air bags, which itself would bring the safety rating down.

I dont see the logic behind this after reading the full ncap report. Refer post #40 in this thread, by me.

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Old 8th June 2006, 15:37   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by microhit
thanks for the input!So all i need is a car for going to hill stations/camping on weekends in karnataka or near by etc, or occasional shopping etc.
For that reason... Baleno!
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Old 8th June 2006, 16:26   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venkatrx
dude, ur saying

accent-1.5
baleno-1.5
aveo-1.5
fiesta-4.0
nhc-1.5

so its a simple when it comes to decide a safe car amongst these.

hope we will have better choices in the next 12 months, how does verna score

swift sedan should naturally be safer once its out.
Where are you getting NHC as 1.5..... just becaz some Baleno owner said it or do you have some sources?

Like Amitoj pointed out, that Balenos safety concerns and issues are not solely based on airbags..... Also Swift's higher rating is also not merely based on airbags.

Its dissapointing as an Indian to see cars with such poor ratings being thrown at us.
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Old 8th June 2006, 16:26   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amitoj
I dont see the logic behind this after reading the full ncap report. Refer post #40 in this thread, by me.
@Amitoj, I did read that post by you. But you would agree that airbags is one of the basic occupant protection devices in a car. And if those were present, then the rating could've been better from the occupant safety point of view. However, the body issues mentioned by you still remain.

See the comments for the Lancer, which is on similar lines :
Of the two stars awarded, the last is 'flagged' to indicate that the car provided only poor protection for the driver's chest in the side-impact test. Also, the car's structure became unstable in the frontal impact and the floor pan ruptured.

BTW, the Opel Astra is among the few cars that got a 5 star rating. But then again, there is only a slim chance that we got the same car here.

Don't we have any similar agency that tests the Indian cars and which we can refer to have a better comparo between the products available here ? I checked ARAI website, but no rating comparisons available there.
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Old 8th June 2006, 16:33   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem
SupremeBaleno, yes 50-60 kgs doesnt mean much, but the fact that Swift is so small (length wise) and still has so much weight means that its avg mass per size is more compared to Baleno and that does effect its road grip. Swift is not really a tall boy as Santro and Wagon R and never does it give me the feel that it will loose control while cornering, a feeling that I always get in a Santro while taking high speed turns.
How did you arrive at thinking about "mass per length" ratio? What is the logic behind car with higher ratio having better grip?? did you mean if you keep on reducing the lenght while maintaining the same mass, you will get really a huge ratio which will make it very very stable at high speed

Quote:
By the way, what is the EURO NCAP safety rating of Baleno? I have always felt that Esteem and Baleno are very light (per their size), this lightness makes them very fast, but is it at the expense of safety?
I personally did not rely much on EURO NCAP because of following reasons-
- models that we get here usually do not have important safty features available in the "EURO" model, as already being discussed.
- ratings are based on specific testing conditions which (IMHO) can not cover vast range of possibilities in real life. Speeds used are quite low as compared to normal speeds, lower than those at which even safty conscious people in india drive. I would feel equally unsafe in any car.
- somehow I doubt that various ratings can be inaccurate, or even worse commercially motivated and biased... just like auto magazines.

Regarding weight and safy relation, you should read this thread, it has good information -

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...highlight=safe (Does more heavy mean more safe??)

It has a poll question also, "Does more heavy mean more safe??" and as of now votes for "yes" and "may be" together are just equal to firm "no"
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Old 8th June 2006, 16:39   #52
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I see... yeah airbags are now considered a basic safety device, next only to seat belts. But reading about the structural integrity issues in a crash test does make one take note. And same goes for lancer as well, as rightly pointed out by you. But on the other hand, the swift's report does not suffer from such structural issues...


Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno
Don't we have any similar agency that tests the Indian cars and which we can refer to have a better comparo between the products available here ? I checked ARAI website, but no rating comparisons available there.
Wont that make life a lot easier for the indian consumers!

But anyways, there is still a lot of time before the market demand for safety reaches such levels that manufacturers are forced to take note of it.

Amitoj
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Old 8th June 2006, 17:00   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem
Where are you getting NHC as 1.5..... just becaz some Baleno owner said it or do you have some sources?
That Baleno owner happens to be me and if you read properly, what I mentioned clearly was "Did not see the NHC there - maybe because it is not intended for the European market. But then if it was tested, I am sure it would be as bad as the Baleno." IMO, the NHC is as succeptible as the Baleno. If you have some data on the NHC's safety rating to prove otherwise, feel free to share it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem
Like Amitoj pointed out, that Balenos safety concerns and issues are not solely based on airbags..... Also Swift's higher rating is also not merely based on airbags.
Amitoj did have a point and it was taken for its merit and also because it is an impartial observation from someone who is actually concerned about the safety and not out to malign any car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem
Its dissapointing as an Indian to see cars with such poor ratings being thrown at us.
You get what you ask for. Its not like manufacturers want to reduce India's huge population by giving you unsafe cars. Its just that they know that price is a big factor here and the chances of people lapping up safer cars by paying a premium is quite low. Might change in the future, but till then that is what you get.
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Old 8th June 2006, 17:03   #54
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Forget the Jazz part of it (same platform or not, the Jazz is not sold in India). Let's have the figures of the NHC if you have it.

Last edited by supremeBaleno : 8th June 2006 at 17:06.
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Old 8th June 2006, 17:09   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno
That Baleno owner happens to be me and if you read properly, what I mentioned clearly was "Did not see the NHC there - maybe because it is not intended for the European market. But then if it was tested, I am sure it would be as bad as the Baleno." IMO, the NHC is as succeptible as the Baleno. If you have some data on the NHC's safety rating to prove otherwise, feel free to share it.
Here is some data I want to share:
Honda City is based on Honda Jazz platform... Honda Jazz gets 4/5 in Euro NCAP... Of course like all cars we get the stripped down version in India. But with no India specific test, we can only make estimates of a car based on its European siblings rating.... below is link for Honda Jazz:

http://www.euroncap.com/content/safe...?id1=1&id2=188

Key to note here is, unlike Baleno, the car keeps its structural integrity (a fact which is not helped by ABS or Airbags).

Frontal Impact: The body displayed a high level of integrity, suffering only minimal distortion at fascia height and minimal intrusion at the footwell. The Jazz’s cabin proved to be strong and stable, suffering only minimal deformation in the frontal impact. Its restraint systems worked well to protect the occupants and kept the driver’s head away from the steering wheel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno
Amitoj did have a point and it was taken for its merit and also because it is an impartial observation from someone who is actually concerned about the safety and not out to malign any car.
Supreme, I am not here to malign Baleno. I myself drive an Esteem and have time and again refered to it in this thread so that its not taken personally by Baleno loyalists. Last thing I want to do is have a baseless war or words. I am sure yourself, myself and this forum has had enough. However when Samurai mentioned that Balenos rating is poor simply caz of airbags and simply brushed Euro NCAP aside, it was welcome to read what Amitoj had to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno
You get what you ask for. Its not like manufacturers want to reduce India's huge population by giving you unsafe cars. Its just that they know that price is a big factor here and the chances of people lapping up safer cars by paying a premium is quite low. Might change in the future, but till then that is what you get.
When government could make pollution norms and seat belts as must, I am sure we can make cars with higher safety as a norm as well. Its unfortunate that we consider power steering a neccesity and air bags a luxury. Thats my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno
Forget the Jazz part of it (same platform or not, the Jazz is not sold in India). Let's have the figures of the NHC if you have it.
Well whether Hyundai Santro is sold as Atos, or Kia, or ATOZ in Europe, as long as the platform on which the Indian car is based is the same, its only valid to have data for the European sibling as a referal. Even Baleno was sold as Esteem in some countries. Esteem was sold without a boot in Europe. The point here is, that with no Indian safety tests, and no Honda Jazz with boot (Honda City) sold in Europe, the only valid comparo we can have is by looking at the data for Honda Jazz. Rest, of course, that leaves the door open for debate.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/iipcache/31510.jpg

Last edited by aseem : 8th June 2006 at 17:26.
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Old 8th June 2006, 17:22   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem
Key to note here is, unlike Baleno, the car keeps its structural integrity (a fact which is not helped by ABS or Airbags).
As I mentioned earlier, this is a comparo between the Baleno and the NHC, not between Baleno and Jazz. Please get figures for the NHC and then we can talk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem
Supreme, I am not here to malign Baleno.
I would have believed that if you had brought up the fact that most of the cars we have in the C-segment (Accent, Lancer, Aveo, Indigo, etc) are unsafe. Instead when the unsafe tag is applied only to the Baleno, I find it tough to believe that. More so, knowing the other reservations you have w.r.t. the Baleno.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem
However when Steroid mentioned that Balenos rating is poor simply caz of airbags and simply brushed Euro NCAP aside, it was welcome to read what Amitoj had to say.
That was Samurai, not Steeroid. And even as I accept the structural issues involved, the fact remains that with airbags in place, the ratings could have improved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem
When government could make pollution norms and seat belts as must, I am sure we can make cars with higher safety as a norm as well. Its unfortunate that we consider power steering a neccesity and air bags a luxury. Thats my point.
These two points concern the Govt, and the consumer and cannot be attributed as a flaw of the seller, is what I said.
No one is underestimating the safety aspect. As mentioned earlier, if microhit has safety as a major concern (did not figure in his initial requirements), he should go for the Swift. And if it has to be a sedan also, the Fiesta is there, but then he does not want American cars.

Last edited by supremeBaleno : 8th June 2006 at 17:25.
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Old 8th June 2006, 17:33   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno
I would have believed that if you had brought up the fact that most of the cars we have in the C-segment (Accent, Lancer, Aveo, Indigo, etc) are unsafe.
Please my post number 32 where I stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aseem
It recieves a 1.5 star rating in Euro NCAP test results and has been deemed too risky for frontal collision, in fact it fares equally with Aveo, whose safety ratings have taken quite a hit on this forum.
I have mentioned that Aveo,Esteem are unsafe as well in this very thread. However we are focussing more on Baleno as the guy was deciding between Baleno and Swift. Lets drop the mine is better than yours attitude and lets keep a healthy discussion. I am sure like my opinions, your opinions about Baleno are known as well. Lets keep them aside, and discuss as a team for a change.

Last edited by aseem : 8th June 2006 at 17:39.
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Old 8th June 2006, 17:40   #58
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Warring gentlemen, can I draw your attention to the Old Man's Post? Let's respect him.

Thank you and apologies for going off-topic!
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Old 8th June 2006, 18:03   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno
As I mentioned earlier, this is a comparo between the Baleno and the NHC, not between Baleno and Jazz. Please get figures for the NHC and then we can talk.
.
This City, still a subcompact slotting beneath the Honda Civic, is a four-door sedan model for the developing markets in Asia, and is built in Ayutthaya, Thailand and Delhi,India. In Japan, the same model is called the Honda Fit Aria; the Aria tag is not used in the People's Republic of China.
The all-new Honda Fit has achieved a "5-star" frontal crash test rating from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). This is no small feat for any car let alone for a car that starts at $13,850.

Below is a link to the pictures of Honda Fit.... or City. If still not convinced, than let to each his own.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/iipcache/31511.jpg

Based on Jazz NCAP and Honda Fit's NHTSA test reports one can assume Honda City India's safety. Though its accepted these comparisons are not completely valid for India, as India cars dont have airbags etc. as rightly pointed out. But these tests give us some benchmark as to where the sibling of the Indian car rates as far as safety is concerned.

This will be my last post in this thread. I am sure the point is clear, that Baleno is not the best in terms of Safety. The power figures also have gone down on top an aging design and interiors. The car still continues to be a VFM, simply because we dont have many better options, that clubbed with a great engine and Marutis large support network.

If the choice is between Baleno and Swift, and you dont need a boot, and safety figures high on your agenda, than go for Swift. If you want a bigger car and safety, design etc. are not as important for you, than go for Baleno.

Last edited by aseem : 8th June 2006 at 18:07.
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Old 8th June 2006, 22:11   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem
The car still continues to be a VFM, simply because we dont have many better options
err.. it wasnt VFM before, it has become just now coz of 50k flat discount
plus 10k some loyalty bonus.. etc etc

but I dont get a point, why baleno loyalist are so furious abt there cars?
can we have a healthy discussion rather than quoting some's statement for whole page...just to prove that mine is better than yours??
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