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Old 8th June 2006, 23:00   #61
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Originally Posted by speedbuster
can we have a healthy discussion rather than quoting some's statement for whole page...just to prove that mine is better than yours??
Well said ......
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Old 8th June 2006, 23:16   #62
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Baleno is bigger, faster, has a boot, costs about the same. The obvious answer is baleno, but I wonder, why does swift sell more?
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Old 8th June 2006, 23:39   #63
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Originally Posted by tsk1979
Baleno is bigger, faster, has a boot, costs about the same. The obvious answer is baleno, but I wonder, why does swift sell more?
As neutral person (not pro or anti Baleno/Swift), here is what I can think of:
1. Swift better suited for city being a hatch.
2. New chick design and hype around it.
3. Better mileage (perceived at least) and resale.
4. For same cost, you get more features such as ABS, Air-Bags etc.
5. Neighbour has one.
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Old 8th June 2006, 23:39   #64
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i would buy the baleno with my eyes closed.....give me a 1.6ltr engine and il be happy.
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Old 8th June 2006, 23:42   #65
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Originally Posted by tsk1979
Baleno is bigger, faster, has a boot, costs about the same. The obvious answer is baleno, but I wonder, why does swift sell more?
for the same reason why everyone wants to marry angelina jolie.........looks and appeal
though after the recent so callled facelift of the baleno,have started seeing more of them lately especially the vxi.baleno looks awesome with 14 inchers.
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Old 9th June 2006, 01:09   #66
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Swift is a contemporary hatch no doubt,the only issue being its minor but irritating quality glitches.On the safety front though,it is definitely safer than most hatches and entry level sedans available.I remember this one episode of Top gear where Jeremy and the gang played Football with Swifts on the field instead of players.Yes,actual Suzuki Swifts!12 swifts sluugged it out,6 on each side.These fools were mercilessly banging into each other's cars at will,turning one of them upside down and flipping it back over again and continuing with the game.The game lasted for maybe about half hour.It was so cute to actually see quite a few of the swifts scoring goals.They all looked like Herbies.No one was hurt in any way.So anyways,the whole idea was to prove how tough the structure of this small car is.It was all there to see on screen.I'm not talking about airbags or other passive safety features.Balenos would certainly have been a pile of retired players on that field.
By the way,has the Baleno really lost its zing after the relevant changes made for Bharat3 norms?Sadly,have'nt driven either eu2 or eu3 balenos to come to a conclusion.I hope its not the way my palio 1.2 was treated for euro3 norms (NV).It used to feel as if someone had deliberately choked the engine (one of reasons why it was tiring to drive for a long time).The changes made to Baleno are similar -catalytic converter near the exhaust manifold,ecu changes,etc.Power and Fuel economy are balenos' main assets,sad it had to compromise on one of them.

Last edited by roms : 9th June 2006 at 01:18.
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Old 9th June 2006, 10:17   #67
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Originally Posted by aseem
Where are you getting NHC as 1.5..... just becaz some Baleno owner said it or do you have some sources?

Like Amitoj pointed out, that Balenos safety concerns and issues are not solely based on airbags..... Also Swift's higher rating is also not merely based on airbags.

Its dissapointing as an Indian to see cars with such poor ratings being thrown at us.
I agree aseem, with the ncap ratings you have shown for 'jazz' and 'fit' we can take the safety for honda city as 4 star....

accent-1.5
baleno-1.5
aveo-1.5
fiesta-4.0
nhc-4.0

swift - 4.0

so for this thread i think if safety comes into picture, swift is far better than Baleno.

So in the C segment, its just Fiesta and NHC with 4.0, aveo/baleno/accent are too bad with 1.5 rating.
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Old 9th June 2006, 10:48   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roms
Swift is a contemporary hatch no doubt,the only issue being its minor but irritating quality glitches.On the safety front though,it is definitely safer than most hatches and entry level sedans available.I remember this one episode of Top gear where Jeremy and the gang played Football with Swifts on the field instead of players.Yes,actual Suzuki Swifts!12 swifts sluugged it out,6 on each side.These fools were mercilessly banging into each other's cars at will,turning one of them upside down and flipping it back over again and continuing with the game.The game lasted for maybe about half hour.It was so cute to actually see quite a few of the swifts scoring goals.They all looked like Herbies.No one was hurt in any way.So anyways,the whole idea was to prove how tough the structure of this small car is.It was all there to see on screen.I'm not talking about airbags or other passive safety features.Balenos would certainly have been a pile of retired players on that field.

By the way,has the Baleno really lost its zing after the relevant changes made for Bharat3 norms?Sadly,have'nt driven either eu2 or eu3 balenos to come to a conclusion.I hope its not the way my palio 1.2 was treated for euro3 norms (NV).It used to feel as if someone had deliberately choked the engine (one of reasons why it was tiring to drive for a long time).The changes made to Baleno are similar -catalytic converter near the exhaust manifold,ecu changes,etc.Power and Fuel economy are balenos' main assets,sad it had to compromise on one of them.

Hey ROms,

Good info.... Where did this football game happened... Could you elborate on it. I would love to see cars palying football.

-Ajay
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Old 9th June 2006, 10:52   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roms
Swift is a contemporary hatch no doubt,the only issue being its minor but irritating quality glitches.On the safety front though,it is definitely safer than most hatches and entry level sedans available.I remember this one episode of Top gear where Jeremy and the gang played Football with Swifts on the field instead of players.Yes,actual Suzuki Swifts!12 swifts sluugged it out,6 on each side.
It was Toyota Aygo and VW Fox
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Old 9th June 2006, 11:28   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amitoj
Sure its got a gem of an engine... but that does demand additional safety requirements too. A car is made not just of an engine... but a lot more.

Amitoj
I agree totally. Last week, my Baleno got rammed in from behind by a Sumo. A Maruti 800 stopped suddenly in front of me and I had to brake suddenly. I stopped fully within decent distance, but the Sumo crashed in from behind. Worse, it had sharp-edged crash guards (this is totally actually against RTO rules), that caused maximum damage to the rear bumper and some amount of damage to the boot (I still cannot open it). Due to the force, I hit the Maruti ahead of me and have minor damages on the bonnet cover and front bumper. Luckily, the 800 didn't have much damages (I didn't have crash guards and I had stopped with a decent distance). My car was the worst off being sandwiched.

I'm yet to put the car for repairs as I'm running around in circles trying to get a copy of the FIR. Don't know the extent of damage costs I'll have to bear. It has been heart-wrenching since this is just a 6 month old car.

At teambhp, we must try and run an awareness campaign against using such crash guards. When I told the Sumo guy (a doctor), I couldn't believe it when he said "my safety comes first."

To quote Amitoj, an engine is not everything. I must say that Maruti makes tinpot cars. In fact, most C-segment cars are of thin sheet metal. The other day, I saw a NHC with a medium-sized hole in the bonnet covered with plastic (temporary protection against rains).

Considering Indian roads where accidents happen frequently, maybe, I should have gone for a car with better metal sheet. I agree that metal sheet strength is not everything as far as safety goes (crumple zones and protection bars are more important).

I'm tempted to go for a Sumo next. The thing is built like a tank. It didn't have any damages (except for a bit of paint of my car on his crash guard). My thinking is if you can't beat them, join them. Not that Sumos are any safer for the occupants, but I might save a bit of money for the insurance companies.

Last edited by pradkumar : 9th June 2006 at 11:37.
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Old 9th June 2006, 12:18   #71
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Sad to know about the accident, especially for a new car like yours...

Damage is because sumo is quite heavy, with a big diesel engine. So thats bound to happen for any car, heavy vehicles always have an advantage in such crashes. Had it been a swift, back seat passenges could have got hurt more.

BTW, do you want car's safty or yours? If sumo and baleno happen to bang on a tree at same speed (and considerably high), I guess sumo passengers would be at more risk.

Guys, I don't know how many of you have gone through FAQ section on NCAP site before comparing NCAP rating... it says ratings are relative within different categories (classes), ratings across categories do not give relative safy between two cars... so we should not compare like that. There are some cars in "large family" and "executive" classes which have lesser stars that swift or getz, these are from reputed manufatureres like BMW, Merc etc. Can we conclude that these cars are worser than these two cars?

It is also mentioned that when two cars collide, heavier will always have advantage for which we won't have any clue based on their stars.
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Old 9th June 2006, 12:32   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santosh.s
Had it been a swift, back seat passenges could have got hurt more.
Always felt little bit safer in sedans because of head n tail damaging themselves by observing the impact to protect the occupants. sedans not only adds up to the feel of owning a big car and comes handy for long distance family trip, but also in this safety point of view
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Old 9th June 2006, 20:17   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979
It was Toyota Aygo and VW Fox
No TSk,that may have been another one then.I clearly remember them testing Swifts on the Football field.It was one of the last episodes of Top gear before it went off air
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Old 9th June 2006, 20:27   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem
Key to note here is, unlike Baleno, the car keeps its structural integrity (a fact which is not helped by ABS or Airbags).
Valid point,

A little but let me explain a few of my views (rather concerns) regarding relying too much on NCAP ratings, because our discussion is so much revolving around safety-

1. Test speeds:
when a car crashes, its kinetic energy gets absorbed in the form of deformation of car and injuries to its occupants. While total amount of energy will decide overall damage, only the portion which reaches cabin decides injuries to occupants. It is well known in physics/mechanics that the amount of energy is equal to "(mass/2) x velocity^2". So as you double your velocity, the impact becomes 4 times worser. If you look at various speeds used by NCAP, it is 64km/h (the highest among all tests) for frontal crash test, which according to above formula should be equivalent to two cars travelling at around 45km/h each if the collision was head on. (Does anybody know as to why NCAP says that it is equivalent to 55km/h for each car?) So if two cars travel at 80kmph, the impact should be 3 times worser and if it is 90kmph & 100kmph, it becomes 4 & 5 times as bad. I am not trying to say that the car which had lesser rating at their test speed could become better at higher speeds. What I feel is both of them will become fatal irrespective of whether its a single star or all 5 stars. BTW, an another note, a car hitting any stationary object at 90kmph is double as bad as two similar cars colliding head on at 45kmph each! Though relative speed between two is same in both cases, total energy to be dessipated is more in former case... surprizing as it may seem.

Apart from the kinetic energy, all of us also carry petrol-bombs everyday in the form of fuel tanks. No NCAP rating can save the car if it explodes. Recently heard that happening to a palio which has automatic fuel cut off feature. (how does it matter when tank itself ruptures )

2. Test impact:
Tests are based on the car crashing with a certain object in a certain position/direction. But in real life, what exactly the car collide with and where the impact happens (over the car body) can make a huge difference to your safety. For example, banging against a wall, a rock, a tree or thin/sharp metal goods (steel rods for example) protruding outside trucks or parts of their structure are all very very different things. Similarly getting hit at bumpers, bonnet, doors, wind shields or window glasses makes a whole lot of difference.

3. "other" vehicles:
There is a great risk that all car owners have to take because we drive on roads along with other heavy buses, lorries etc which may be 10-20 times heavier or more than the car. No car can be saved if such vehicles ram into your car. NCAP ratings do not reflect safety under such conditions. Stronger cars will do little better as long as the impact is within what they can withstand, beyond that does strong or weak really matter? We need "car" rating for trucks and buses, just like pedestrian ratings

I am not implying NCAP is all rubbish. Just that I find their test conditions to be a small subset of what all can go wrong in reality. In conclusion what I can say is this-

- NCAP ratings are an indication of safety (of course) but in limited sense, one should not get carried away too much by that.

- NCAP has advised not to judge two cars from different categories based on their respective ratings, so the meaning of 2 stars versus 4 stars for baleno and swift is unclear. It is definitely not "swift is twice as safe as baleno". The same applies to lancer, aveo.

Please don't consider me as mere pro-baleno. I do wish it had an option of airbags, fuel cut-off etc. (and yes... better NCAP rating too ) It doesn't sell much anyway... actually I feel more pity for the poor Aveo since the car is suffering due to this rating right in its beginning itself!!
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Old 9th June 2006, 20:52   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem
This will be my last post in this thread.
if you don't mind, please answer my question in post #51 and calrify "mass per lenght" concept before quitting...
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