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Old 21st December 2006, 09:49   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram View Post
Mileage can be calculated, to calculate the cost.
I've already indicated the money I shelled out.
In both cars I only use Hindustan Petroleum "Power" fuel.

With more sedate driving, maybe I can improve the Baleno's economy,
but with sedate driving, so can the 800's economy be improved.
Her MPFI, 12-valve and overdrive fifth gear have helped, as have the higher than spec profile tires.

Kilometres per litre as a figure of merit is completely blind to time spent idling away at traffic lights, railroad crossings, etc., with the airconditioner going.
It doesn't truly account for engine revolutions per kilometre, because that depends on which gears one used, which in turn depends on the amount of traffic one drove in
and one's gearchange style which may be anywhere between boy-racer and diesel-bus-driver.

To that extent the diesel engine parameter: litres per hour of operation
is a superior figure of merit.

There's a big difference between covering one kilometer in 3rd gear (for Baleno it's 1.28:1), as opposed to in an overdrive gear(for Baleno it's 0.815:1).

A 1.6 litre engine idling under a/c load consumes more fuel than an 800 cc engine idling, begging for the a/c to be switched off. Let's just agree that the Maruti 800 is way more economical (in every modality) than the Baleno.
Ram,

I very well understand the impact of gearing, engine size, air-conditioners, driving style etc. on fuel economy. This is not relevant to the point of discussion and neither is it what I am asking you to clarify. Please do check my article out on how to improve FE.

1. Your statement:

Quote:
Once a week, I would consume Rs. 990 worth of petrol on my 800. Now the same amount of driving on the same roads costs me Rs. 3,090 worth of petrol on my Baleno VXi.
indicates that the same distance on the same roads in similar driving conditions costs you 3.12 times the fuel. Simply put, you say that the Baleno is 1/3 as fuel efficient as the 800. Or that the 800 is 3.12 times more FE than the Baleno.

I ask a simple question : What is the fuel efficiency of your 800 and of your Baleno? Because as far as I know..the difference between the two cars FE is not three times.

Another way to arrive at your FE figures would be to share the distance with us (for which you pay 990 vs 3090) a week, and the fuel cost.

Last edited by GTO : 21st December 2006 at 09:52.
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Old 21st December 2006, 12:24   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrous
Be concerned about her safety and get an Alto.
I would also prefer that she goes for an Alto (mainly for the Power Steering). But she is insistent on the M800. BTW, I don't think there is much difference between the two in terms of safety. Or am I missing something here ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I ask a simple question : What is the fuel efficiency of your 800 and of your Baleno? Because as far as I know..the difference between the two cars FE is not three times.
Exactly my doubt. There is no way that the M800 is 3times as FE as the Baleno.

Having driven the M800 extensively and the Baleno for the last 1.5 years, my findings have been as below.

Baleno : city - 12kmpl highways - 16kmpl. Have never used it without a/c.
M800 : city - 15-16kmpl highways - 21-22. This was a non-a/c model.

The other a/c M800 used to give around 19-20 on highways with a/c. Never measured its city FE.

Last edited by supremeBaleno : 21st December 2006 at 12:26.
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Old 21st December 2006, 12:40   #33
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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
I would also prefer that she goes for an Alto (mainly for the Power Steering). But she is insistent on the M800. BTW, I don't think there is much difference between the two in terms of safety. Or am I missing something here ?
Alto is supposed to be safer than M800 as well as the old Zen. Its body structure is more rigid. It is also heavier than M800 by (I think) as much as 100 kilos. A few years back, Maruti stopped exporting Zen to Europe since the car could not meet the new safety norms that had come into force there. Instead, Maruti started exporting Alto to Europe since Alto satisfied those norms. Alto is also more fuel efficient than M800, thanks to 5 gears and 12 valve engine.
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Old 21st December 2006, 14:47   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Ram,
I very well understand the impact of gearing, engine size, air-conditioners, driving style etc. on fuel economy. This is not relevant to the point of discussion
Relevance to the discussion:
The 800 was driven gently. The Baleno was driven hard and continues to be! There's more to value for money than just distances and driving conditions.

We did calculate the ratio of kilometers driven to liters of fuel consumed. And the 3x gap did not surprise us, given our prior background.

Rationalization:

My 800 engine is in top shape, she is a 12-valve MPFI 3-cylinder toy.
Much of her driving is done in 5th gear with the airconditioner off.
The 800's airconditioner is not a high BTU unit anyway.
On the other hand, my properly run-in Baleno, is run-up to 175 km/h (esp. the north-bound stretch after the Khalapur toll-station) on the expressway,every week. Her airconditioner is on whenever the engine is turning.
Gear upshifts are done between 2750-3000 rpm. They're power-upshifts rather than economy-upshifts.
This gives an exhilarating push-in-the-back experience, albeit at the expense of fuel.
The Maruti 800 and the Baleno are different categories of car by weight and power and thirst. Nevertheless, there are still many factors which affect fuel economy, not the least of which is the driver and driving style.

My first hand experience is, these factors affect different cars and different people in the different ways. Somebody gets 13.5 km/l out of a Baleno. Somebody gets only 8.5-9 km/l. Somebody gets more. I don't know what your first hand experience is with fuel economy and different cars.

Fuel costs in the reckoning (you had requested for them):
Khalapur, Sajgaon: Rs. 52.13 per litre.
Taje, Maval: Rs. 52.20 per litre.
Deonar, Mumbai: Rs. 54.01 per litre.
Karve Road Pune: Rs. 55.25 per litre.

Ram Baji Rao
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Old 21st December 2006, 15:25   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram View Post
Relevance to the discussion:
The 800 was driven gently. The Baleno was driven hard and continues to be! There's more to value for money than just distances and driving conditions.

We did calculate the ratio of kilometers driven to liters of fuel consumed. And the 3x gap did not surprise us, given our prior background.

Rationalization:
My 800 engine is in top shape, she is a 12-valve MPFI 3-cylinder toy.
Much of her driving is done in 5th gear with the airconditioner off.
The 800's airconditioner is not a high BTU unit anyway.
On the other hand, my properly run-in Baleno, is run-up to 175 km/h (esp. the north-bound stretch after the Khalapur toll-station) on the expressway,every week. Her airconditioner is on whenever the engine is turning.
Gear upshifts are done between 2750-3000 rpm. They're power-upshifts rather than economy-upshifts.
This gives an exhilarating push-in-the-back experience, albeit at the expense of fuel.
The Maruti 800 and the Baleno are different categories of car by weight and power and thirst. Nevertheless, there are still many factors which affect fuel economy, not the least of which is the driver and driving style.

My first hand experience is, these factors affect different cars and different people in the different ways. Somebody gets 13.5 km/l out of a Baleno. Somebody gets only 8.5-9 km/l. Somebody gets more. I don't know what your first hand experience is with fuel economy and different cars.

Fuel costs in the reckoning (you had requested for them):
Khalapur, Sajgaon: Rs. 52.13 per litre.
Taje, Maval: Rs. 52.20 per litre.
Deonar, Mumbai: Rs. 54.01 per litre.
Karve Road Pune: Rs. 55.25 per litre.

Ram Baji Rao
Ram,
I used to drive an 800 and have just recently shifted to the Petra, which has never had the reputation of being thrifty on fuel. So, it was a big surprise when you said that with the same kind of driving you spend 900 odd on the 800 and 3000 odd on the Baleno.
My 800 has given an average of 16+kmpl while the Petra has over the past month given 9+, though I too have (only once in a while this not yet being well run in) enjoyed push-in-the-back acceletation. My 800 used to run 60% of the time with AC and the Petra never runs without AC. But I fail to understand, how someone can push a Baleno to something like 6kmpl (based on your 900 and 3000 ratio and my 800's standard 16kmpl), that too including a lot of highway driving.
Two reasons why I say this. 1. A Baleno is quite a FE car, and people often achieve 12kmpl with no highway driving. Getting half of that would be tough, however much you abuse the car. And 2. The same person who drives one car sedately, does not easily turn into a drag demon just given a different car.
So, either you Baleno has some serious performance mods or it needs urgent attention.
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Old 21st December 2006, 15:34   #36
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@ram, you still have not given the FE figures for your M800 and Baleno. Is it a secret or something ?

Where just a one-liner (indicating the FE, irrespective of how you drive or other parameters) would have sufficed, you type out whole paragraphs, which have everything but the requested info.
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Old 21st December 2006, 16:20   #37
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Quote:
The 800 was driven gently. The Baleno was driven hard and continues to be!
Well, that explains it then.

Its really about comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Comparing the FE of a hard-driven Baleno to that of a modestly driven 800 is futile.

On the other hand, identical driving conditions would lead to a 40% increase (maximum) in FE advantage to the 800.
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Old 21st December 2006, 17:37   #38
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@prabhuddagd : believe me, any car can be made to give bad FE, if that is not in the mind of the driver. you might give more importance to FE & ram might sacrifice that for driving pleasure. i am not saying that there is no pleasure in driving economically, there is. it is all in the mind.
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Old 21st December 2006, 17:47   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prabuddhadg View Post
Ram,
how someone can push a Baleno to something like 6kmpl
Simple, forget that the 4th and 5th gears exist.
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Old 21st December 2006, 18:23   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esteem_lover View Post
@prabhuddagd : believe me, any car can be made to give bad FE, if that is not in the mind of the driver. you might give more importance to FE & ram might sacrifice that for driving pleasure. i am not saying that there is no pleasure in driving economically, there is. it is all in the mind.
Completely off topic, EL, but like Ram, I too am getting addicted to the pick up. The Petra is a great car to zoom off at traffic signals in. And added to its dignified looks, its performance surprises even more.

Coming back to the topic, though I have to buy almost 200litres of petrol each month, I stop caring about FE as long as I am behind the wheel, because it is an exciting car to drive. It is a new car, which is why I do not let the adrenaline carry the revs away. Only once did I falter into doing a 120 in Bombay traffic.
But the point I am trying to make is different. Whatever happens, I do not change all my characteristics just by changing from the 800 to the Petra. If I drive the 800 with some control, I do the same with the Petra, agreed, with a lot less self control. When my car is fully run in, I shall probably drive it more rev happily, but then when I go back to an 800, my driving won't again become as sedate as it used to be earlier. So, I won't go back to the earlier FE quite easily. So, the data for the 800 and the Petra (or Baleno in Ram's case) will not be matching. So the difference will not be so yawning. I hope I have been able to explain.
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Old 21st December 2006, 18:30   #41
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Originally Posted by goldie_malhotra View Post
Simple, forget that the 4th and 5th gears exist.
Yes you can Goldie, but then put someone self confessedly a speed addict (Ram has not used those words about himself, but he does say he loves the pick up of the Baleno) on the Bombay Poona Expressway and ask him to forget the 4th and 5th. Given a highway, FE just has to be better than in the city.
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Old 21st December 2006, 19:53   #42
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Gents ,

This thread is seriously veering off course. Some rearguard and amidships action required to prevent slamming into the iceberg and sinking.

Last edited by theMAG : 21st December 2006 at 20:05.
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Old 21st December 2006, 21:25   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prabuddhadg View Post
Yes you can Goldie, but then put someone self confessedly a speed addict (Ram has not used those words about himself, but he does say he loves the pick up of the Baleno) on the Bombay Poona Expressway and ask him to forget the 4th and 5th. Given a highway, FE just has to be better than in the city.
prabuddhadg:
Let's review this in the right perspective.

My Maruti 800 is a MPFI 12-valve with a 5-speed gearbox. Then, I've brought the 5th gear a wee-bit closer to a 6th gear by using oversize tires. I am running large MRF ZVTS 145/80R12-74S radials. These larger 80% aspect ratio tires only turn 593 rev/km as opposed to 627 rev/km for the stock 145/70R12. I had described this in detail in this post.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/tyre-a...tml#post196347

So unlike 4-speed Maruti 800s, the 5-speed returns me 24 to 26 km/liters with my mix of expressway and city driving.

So it's not that my Baleno is leaky (On the contrary, she's a strong puller). It's just that my Maruti 800 is on the thriftier side.

Now with 26 km/l from the 800, and 8.33 km/l on the hot revving Baleno, does it look so preposterous anymore?

By the way, tonight I drove the Baleno VXi on the expressway,
never exceeding 105 km/h at any point.


I topped up the tank at Pimpaloli after the Kamshet tunnel#1, 25.30 litres @ Rs. 50.09 Rs./litre. Let's see how far she goes with sedate driving.

And friends, thanks for the support and the lively discussion.

Ram

Last edited by Ram : 21st December 2006 at 21:27.
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Old 19th January 2007, 15:56   #44
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With the sales of the ALTO soaring high , it seems by end 2007 M800 should be out of the market .........
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Old 28th January 2007, 14:53   #45
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Default August 2006 Baleno VXi 10,000 km report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ram View Post

prabuddhadg:
Let's review this in the right perspective.

My Maruti 800 is a MPFI 12-valve with a 5-speed gearbox. Then, I've brought the 5th gear a wee-bit closer to a 6th gear by using oversize tires. I am running large MRF ZVTS 145/80R12-74S radials. These larger 80% aspect ratio tires only turn 593 rev/km as opposed to 627 rev/km for the stock 145/70R12. I had described this in detail in this post.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/tyre-a...tml#post196347

So unlike 4-speed Maruti 800s, the 5-speed returns me 24 to 26 km/liters with my mix of expressway and city driving.

So it's not that my Baleno is leaky (On the contrary, she's a strong puller). It's just that my Maruti 800 is on the thriftier side.

Now with 26 km/l from the 800, and 8.33 km/l on the hot revving Baleno, does it look so preposterous anymore?

By the way, tonight I drove the Baleno VXi on the expressway,
never exceeding 105 km/h at any point.


I topped up the tank at Pimpaloli after the Kamshet tunnel#1, 25.30 litres @ Rs. 50.09 Rs./litre. Let's see how far she goes with sedate driving.

And friends, thanks for the support and the lively discussion.

Ram
Update:
I have measured an average of 9 km/litre in the city and 15 km/l on the highway.
I do about 85 km of city driving and about 290 km of highway driving each week.
So I am enjoying an average of 13 km/litre.
Have always used Hindustan Petroleum "Power" brand of petrol
and my car is now 10,000 km old.

For your information, in Jan 2007, HP Power petrol prices are interestingly:
Rs. 50.02 per litre at Auto Care Centre, Coco-VIII Sajgaon on the Mumbai-Pune expressway,
Rs. 50.09 per litre at HP Fuel Centre, Expressway, Taje, Tk:Mawal, Pune
on the Pune-Mumbai expressway,
Rs. 51.89 per litre at Sanjiv Service Station, Deonar, Mumbai 400088
and Rs. 53.03 per litre at Excel Services Centre, Karve Road, Pune.

Greetings and Good wishes.
Ram
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