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Old 5th March 2010, 11:46   #31
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Swift- best A.S.S., proven car, fun to drive, space less
Figo- fresh model, good power, yet to be proven, A.S.S. inconsistent (though the Figo's power delivery fits your primary need)
Vista- proven model, space as in 'space', economy, A.S.S. not the best
Punto- great looks, solid build, great handler, features, A.S.S. woes

Go thru this:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...-superior.html (TDCI or Multijet - Which is technically superior?)

Last edited by Delta Wing : 5th March 2010 at 11:51.
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Old 5th March 2010, 11:52   #32
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You can checkout the Getz crdi too and they are not many around.
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Old 5th March 2010, 12:57   #33
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I think I am going to go with the vdi with abs.
Seems the best of the lot.
Might probably upgrade the tyres and do an ICE.
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Old 5th March 2010, 13:07   #34
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try to inquire with Huyndai for a diesel hyundai getz - its simply fantastic
have been using till date 65000 kms in 2 years ,feels new with lot of power
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Old 6th March 2010, 11:48   #35
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Thanks for all your valuable suggestions, friends. Reading all the posts till now, I am of the opinion, that the Ford Figo should be worth the wait. But yes, the tech is outdated in comparison to the latest diesels.

All Tata cars impart this "hand-made" feel with their tacky fit and finish and poor ergonomics. So the Vista is not my preferred car.

The Punto, with its present engine spec is shockingly underpowered. Besides, it should wear a badge shouting "Caution! I am a FIAT!"

The Swift is the new common-man's car... with people from all sections of the society owning one!

A word of caution for those wanting to buy the Fabia diesel: it is not worth the extra cash. The biggest disappointment is the 1.4 three-cylinder diesel which always seems to be working too hard to cope up with the heavy car. You can sense the misfit in the way the tiny engine sits into the huge engine bay. It is nowhere in the league of the Octavia's or the Laura's silky smooth, peppy engines that make these cars actually fun to drive.

Checked out the VW Polo yesterday. As of now only the petrol version is launched, with the diesel coming in May. The on-road price of the base petrol is a very lucrative 4.5L while the diesel would begin at 5.65L. The 1.2 petrol is the same unit that powers the Fabia. The 1.2 litre 3 cyl diesel seems even more disappointing. The car is great to look at, but hugely cramped at the rear. The Swift seems roomier in comparison.
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Old 6th March 2010, 12:09   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOVE HER(ALD)! View Post
Thanks for all your valuable suggestions, friends. Reading all the posts till now, I am of the opinion, that the Ford Figo should be worth the wait. But yes, the tech is outdated in comparison to the latest diesels.
I Would suggest you avoid a Ford car, The reason i state this is because i have owned a Ford and Believe You me The A.s.s is ABSOLUTELY Pathetic to say the least, ford Cars though are well built and in my Entire ownership period there were ZERO rattles from the car, No doubt their cars are good but when ever you visit the Service centre you feel like shooting someone!!

Eventually i sold my Ikon off as i had suffered enough, and also its very hard and almost difficult a task to source Ford Parts Outside and on top of that every city has just One or two Ford authorized workshops and hence they know that the customer eventually has to come to them.

I would suggest you Go for the Punto Its got good styling in my Opinion has decent space inside and though the performance is not what the swift offers its all in all a better package i feel.
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Old 6th March 2010, 21:48   #37
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Love Herald,

Since you've stated "fun to drive" as your topmost priority, its pretty much between the three following hatchbacks:

1. Punto MJD + diesel tuning box. The tuning box will make the car sprightlier, and the dynamics (and steering), are 10/10 stars.

2. Swift / Figo + tuning box. Either are quick, the Figo has an advantage where it feels nimble, retains Ford DNA in handling and has decent stability too.

The Swift is the safest choice, Figo somewhere in the middle, and the Punto the riskiest (relatively).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mohandas View Post
You are almost right. Sir but what GTO didnot tell you is this-

TDCi is a old tech engine (1998).
I don't understand the big deal. Till date, and in my '05 C220, Mercedes sells the C (200 CDI + 220 CDI) with the OM 611 engine. A diesel that was developed in 1998!! Now, this is Mercedes which is at the top of the food chain in luxury / prestige. Do I care if the engine was developed in 2005 or 1995? Absolutely NOT! The most redeeming quality of my C220 is the engine. Monster torque, excellent fuel efficiency and stonking performance. TILL THIS DATE, the 33 lakh new Mercedes C220 is sold with what is basically a newer common rail gen of the same '98 OM611 engine.

Take the case of the Figo, independent of when the engine was developed:

- It has the best urban performance amongst diesel hatchbacks (thanks to zero turbolag)

- It is as refined as the MJD diesels, and actually seems quieter than the Punto

- It is fuel efficient as well

What part of that do you think the target market will complain about? In my books, its a better engine to live with than the one in the Swift / Punto.
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Old 6th March 2010, 22:34   #38
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I am in the identical category of LOVE HER(ALD)! and looking for a diesel hatchback.
Waiting from Dec 09 till now not finalised anything. Going around all showrooms. Figo is on top of my list and very eagerly waiting to do a TD on 10th March (launching date confirmed by dealers).

The worst thing I have done is that I have added a very good second hand Fiesta TDCi in my list.
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Old 6th March 2010, 22:40   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I don't understand the big deal. Till date, and in my '05 C220, Mercedes sells the C (200 CDI + 220 CDI) with the OM 611 engine. A diesel that was developed in 1998!! Now, this is Mercedes which is at the top of the food chain in luxury / prestige.
Again from the same source, Merc provides that age-old OM611 engine to the developing country only. For every where else it is OM646.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Do I care if the engine was developed in 2005 or 1995? Absolutely NOT!
But I do care sir. When I am putting my hard earned money on the table, I want to make sure that what I am getting is truly international standard or not. And I mean every part of the spec of the car. If I see anything special being offered for the developing country only - not only the car but the car Mfg is also out of my list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The most redeeming quality of my C220 is the engine. Monster torque, excellent fuel efficiency and stonking performance. TILL THIS DATE, the 33 lakh new Mercedes C220 is sold with what is basically a newer common rail gen of the same '98 OM611 engine.
I could not get the point you are trying to make here. I though we were talking about TDCi and DDiS - not the OM611. Anyway, with the advance of technology, smaller size engine produces greater torque than the bigger old generation engine. For e.g. TDCi vs DDiS. 4V per Cylder of DDiS makes it more fuel efficient as well. So, anyway DDiS is better engine than TDCi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
What part of that do you think the target market will complain about? In my books, its a better engine to live with than the one in the Swift / Punto.
The same segment. I can bet lakhs on the fact that Swift will continue to outsell Figo.
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Old 6th March 2010, 23:03   #40
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<<The same segment. I can bet lakhs on the fact that Swift will continue to outsell Figo>>

Very interesting comments from Mohandas. No doubt that Swift DDis is a top class performing car from day one till now. It did not have a major negative except its cramped back seat and small boot (reason of DDis Dzire launch which is very UNSTABLE at high speeds). That is the reason that a quality product sells by itself and till now not even a single rupee discount is given by any maruti dealer for VDI and LDI.
GTO review and Mustang.101's inside info have created huge expectations about Figo and When I checked with other resources inside Ford, they also confirmed about the same. Infact Ford's future committment to India (developing country) totally depends on Figo's success. Figo had undergone extensive testing and each and every part is QC'ed many times. Infact CD eject sound from the music system was noticed and rectified.
As far as the motor is concerned, Ford cannot take a risk with newer engine at this point of time and they are entering into a very very competitive market (Polo already there, Micra coming soon, etc). 1.4 TDCi is very well proven and infact will be an added advantage to this smaller car. Yes Agreed that it is not the latest of engines.
Ford has to price it aggressively against Swift and put all its efforts on A.S.S and mainly on the total cost of ownership (TCO) otherwise Ford will loose the best chance of survival.
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Old 7th March 2010, 08:06   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mohandas View Post
But I do care sir. When I am putting my hard earned money on the table, I want to make sure that what I am getting is truly international standard or not. And I mean every part of the spec of the car. If I see anything special being offered for the developing country only - not only the car but the car Mfg is also out of my list.
By that standard mohandas, you wouldnt buy most vehicles that are popular in the market in the 7lac plus segment, Honda, Toyota, Ford, etc...

I guess the choice is VFM... If the older Merc engine is better than the latest maruti engine (I know I am going across sectors), what would you Choose (for eg SX4 Vs Honda City)... The popular choice we clearly know...
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Old 7th March 2010, 09:38   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mohandas View Post
Again from the same source, Merc provides that age-old OM611 engine to the developing country only. For every where else it is OM646.

I am quite sure the C220 was sold with the same engine around the world at the same time. Mercedes would never do such a thing, specially given how their competitors would have outclassed them.

But I do care sir. When I am putting my hard earned money on the table, I want to make sure that what I am getting is truly international standard or not. And I mean every part of the spec of the car. If I see anything special being offered for the developing country only - not only the car but the car Mfg is also out of my list.

Here's my question - You are saying that you will put money for a car with an engine which though international, has lower levels of refinement and driveability?
BTW, the Ford Fusion in the UK is available with the same 1.4 TDCi engine that is sold here, so there is no question of a developing country engine. Last time I checked, the UK was not a developing country.
Let me ask you one more question - What about Petrol marutis? With their generation old engines? The only reason they were FORCED to upgrade was because of new emission norms.
In addition to that, what about the poorer quality of the Indian suzuki's? I haven't seen a Swift that doesn't rattle till date. Actually I did see one, but it was a show car parked in the showroom.


I could not get the point you are trying to make here. I though we were talking about TDCi and DDiS - not the OM611. Anyway, with the advance of technology, smaller size engine produces greater torque than the bigger old generation engine. For e.g. TDCi vs DDiS. 4V per Cylder of DDiS makes it more fuel efficient as well. So, anyway DDiS is better engine than TDCi.

Is it really a better engine given that the less powerful TDCi can still outsmoke a Swift VDi in the city when driven correctly?
Also what about the fact that the TDCi is easier to drive in the city due to its better tuning, and also the fact that our Fiesta TDCi done nearly 60Kkm is almost petrol like in terms of refinement?
I cannot say the same about a Swift.


The same segment. I can bet lakhs on the fact that Swift will continue to outsell Figo.

The Swift might outsell the Figo, but not because it is a better car. The Figo handles better, is more comfortable, and bigger than a Swift at a similar price point. It may not come with rear power windows, but if you crash your car, when the airbags pop out to save your life, you will definitely be thankful that you aren't in a Swift VDi for which you had to wait 6 months to take delivery, and that too without Airbags.
The only reason the Swift will outsell the Figo is because it is a Maruti, which is perceived to be reliable and cheap to maintain. No other reason!
People out here will listen to their wife's brother's neighbor's uncle who will say not to buy a Ford because it is perceived to be high maintainance, even though that uncle may have never owned a Ford or even sat in one his whole life, and is completely in accurate in his claims.
BTW, I haven't seen or sat in a Figo till date, but with past experience from Ford, I am confident that this car will be superb. If I were to buy a car without a TD, this would be it!
Please see my replies in Bold
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Old 7th March 2010, 14:09   #43
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Quote:
When I am putting my hard earned money on the table, I want to make sure that what I am getting is truly international standard or not.
All of us buy cars with our *hard earned* money pal, I wish we had money growing trees

Seriously though, a bit of advice : Do NOT go merely by what you read on paper, wiki or stats. Think for a moment and gauge how relevant the product, whether old or new, is to you:

- A typical hatchback is driven 80 - 90% within the city itself. This is EXACTLY where the 1.4 TDCi is superior to the MJD, simply because of the absence of turbolag. The 1.4 TDCi is immensely more driveable in the conditions where you will be driving it the most.

- It's fuel efficiency matches or beats that of the 1.3 MJD.

- It's refinement is on par.

Of course, on the open road, the MJD will have better performance simply because it has more power. But again, where does a typical hatch spend more of its time? Would one logically choose an engine that suits the majority of its intended usage better? Logically, yes.

Don't get me wrong, insisting on the latest is a good thing. I like the 1.4 TDCi as much as I do the 1.3 MJD. However, we shouldn't be entirely blinded by the *newest* and ignore all other areas of practicality. As stated in my review, the Figo itself is developed on an older platform. However, as an overall car, it is superior to the Swift. It has more room (back is especially better), way better ride quality (Swift is stiff), excellent ride & handling and excellent driveablity (unlike the turbolag'ed MJD).

Now if you want to ignore all of those positive points just for "which is newer", go right ahead. We are here on Team-BHP for an educated opinion, not merely base our buying decisions based on stats.

Also, and continuing the discussion:

Quote:
When I am putting my hard earned money on the table, I want to make sure that what I am getting is truly international standard or not. If I see anything special being offered for the developing country only - not only the car but the car Mfg is also out of my list.
Well, your statements are self-contradictory then. NO hatch sold in India, save for the i20, is "truly international standard". Do spend some time comparing the poor fit, finish and quality of the Indian-spec Swift or Punto, that to their international counterparts. Please remove all other Indian hatchbacks from your list immediately.

And yes, since you actually do want the *latest*, the Swift is NOT for you either. It's a car that's so showing its age. You should be favouring the Ritz instead. It's a hatch more modern than the Swift, and immensely more practical too.

Lastly, Fiat in 2009 has already introduced the newer gen of the 1.3 MJD that meets Euro V. By that, the one sold in India is already outdated (in your books, not mine).

If you only want to buy "international grade" products, be prepared to shell out a mean $$$ for that. Forget about buying any hatchback for 4 - 5 lakhs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mohandas View Post
Again from the same source, Merc provides that age-old OM611 engine to the developing country only.
Quote:
I could not get the point you are trying to make here. I though we were talking about TDCi and DDiS - not the OM611. Anyway, with the advance of technology, smaller size engine produces greater torque than the bigger old generation engine. For e.g. TDCi vs DDiS. 4V per Cylder of DDiS makes it more fuel efficient as well. So, anyway DDiS is better engine than TDCi.
The point I'm making is, irrespective of when the engine was developed, the one in the Mercedes C220 is still the SEGMENT BEST! It's got amazing power, durability, efficiency and refinement. If Mercedes can sell an old, but still very competent, engine in a 30 lakh car, why can't Ford in a 5 lakh car?

Change for the heck of change is not good. We shouldn't *blindly* go out for whats newest. Rather, we should evaluate whats best for us.

Quote:
I can bet lakhs on the fact that Swift will continue to outsell Figo.
Of course it will. But the Swift also outsells the Ritz which is a better car overall. And a later model too. There's more to selling a car than just *which has the newest engine*!!
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Old 7th March 2010, 17:06   #44
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Yes when we think practically, we need to choose the best car which typically suit our needs and not the latest.
--The top market leaders ( Maruti & Hyundai ) in India will try to put the latest technologies available to the customers. The reason is simple that they can take risk and their products are already proven and definitely have a bigger basket of customers all over the country. But the same thing cant be said about others esp when entering into a crowded market. This is one of the reason that Figo uses the very well proven engine and helps Ford in aggressive pricing.
--It will be very very difficult to compare and rate each spec to spec on all segments. It is the requirement of the customer to choose what he wants. My true requirement is 1.3 MJD plus Vista's Rear seat space plus Figo's handling and stability plus Maruti's service network. who can give this. Only I have to assemble..
---At the same time there are international manufacturers who take India and Indian customers lightly. Eg: Older engines, Wiper levers at right side, etc.. which they do not do in advanced countries. This will change in the longer run.
---We do not totally depend on cars for transportation, do not have the international standards of Freeways/Expressways, or spend more on car (bhpians may do as we have passion, but not common buyers), Upgrade the car frequently..
---Once we are up to international standards then we can see many new launches on the same day in US and India...offcourse with the same spec..
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Old 8th March 2010, 07:28   #45
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<<<The Swift might outsell the Figo, but not because it is a better car. The Figo handles better, is more comfortable, and bigger than a Swift at a similar price point. It may not come with rear power windows, but if you crash your car, when the airbags pop out to save your life, you will definitely be thankful that you aren't in a Swift VDi for which you had to wait 6 months to take delivery, and that too without Airbags>>>

Swift would not take much time to introduce Dual Airbags. We can see this shortly after Figo's number of bookings of its top end Titanium.
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