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Old 9th November 2012, 14:24   #16
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Default re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

Guys thanks for the prompt reply. My friend is not a team-bhp member but is following this thread.

Here are a few things that you have asked and I missed in the earlier post.

I am not sure which dealer it is, both sound similar so couldn't register. I'll ask him again but think it is Ravindu

He has paid full price for the car. i.e it is a new car, diesel. I think he paid some 17 lacs, same as the price of the new car.

Initially the dealer denied everything about old/display/demo car. The car has already gone for boot and fuel lid treatment and is still not free from trouble still. He has consulted the lawyer too and both the parties have served notices to each other. Dealer's lawyer have even asked him to pay 5,000 as his fees stating that it is okay to sell a display car . I am not sure what was the compensation amount from my friend's side (other than a new car).
After putting a lot of pressure on the dealer he was able to make them admit that it is a display car (same mentioned in dealer's lawyer notice too). How he managed it I am not entirely sure.

My friend has contacted the Toyota as well and the reply is that the car can not be replaced (in tune with the dealer).

Following all this, as of today the dealer has agreed for negotiation, although no replacement.

A few questions that he has:
Is it legal to sell a display car without informing the customer? Are there any rules on this. Someone suggested about a fraud case (good point I think).
What would be the most practical solution on the negotiation table, of course he would like to have a new car?

I understand that we all should not buy a car without a PDI. But the portion of the duly informed/aware is minuscule. I wish he had consulted me before buying. What is done is done.

Last edited by fi.robin : 9th November 2012 at 14:27.
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Old 9th November 2012, 14:36   #17
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Default re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

My Question?
Can it be proved if the car is a display model (i am taking it to be different from Demo/TD vehicles) or that even if it is it can't be sold? I mean how can a customer prove this, is there any documentation he can lay his hands on.

The dealer or the company can always change the paperwork in the backend and show it to be new.
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Old 9th November 2012, 15:35   #18
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Post re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

Quote:
Originally Posted by fi.robin View Post
Is it legal to sell a display car without informing the customer? Are there any rules on this?
Absolutely not. As GTO has pointed out, this is a rogue dealership and has committed intentional fraud during a sale because it withheld information knowingly and with malicious intent in order to further its selfish interests or make unjustified profits from a customer. No two ways about it. The case has more than adequate legal grounds.

Fact of the matter is that the due diligence wasn't up to the mark allowing the dealer to get away in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fi.robin View Post
What would be the most practical solution on the negotiation table, of course he would like to have a new car?
Agreed, what is done is done. Now we've got to move on and look to fix this. While I obviously think a new car is the best solution, it may not be that easy or straightforward. Already the dealership is playing hardball there and as I gather, the initial response Toyota too seems unsympathetic toward your friends predicament. In all likelihood, Toyota will blame it on the dealership and claim indemnity in the process. The dealership, in turn, will resort to even more crooked ways and stonewalling. Ergo, he could be stuck in one long and arduous legal journey with both entities.

Doesn't mean he shouldn't fight tooth and nail. Not saying that even for a second. However being realistic through all of this may lead to a quick closure and limit heartburn for your pal. Hence it may not be the worst idea to ask (fight) for a full refund and if given that, exit this relationship quickly and look elsewhere for his auto needs. As it is, the dealership has demonstrated that it is not averse to twisted dealings. What's to prevent them from doing it again in a new avatar? I say go all guns blazing for a 100% refund, but be prepared to limit your loss and settle for slightly less.

Just my 2 bro.
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Old 9th November 2012, 15:48   #19
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Default re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

What has happened to your friend is really unfortunate and sad. He should not settle for anything less than a replacement or full repayment of the purchase. In any other case it will be a heartbreak for him every time he drives the car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoombiee View Post
While it's good for a customer to do it, I dont think it is required for a customer to do it.
All dealership resort to frauds if they think they can get away by fooling the innocent customers. The PDI is absolutely required to get rid of the mental agony later, as the poor chap is undergoing. Also, comparision between a loaf of bread and a 17L Toyota Altis is not proper. Toyota Altis costs a lot of money.
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Old 9th November 2012, 15:49   #20
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Default re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

I think that there is a world of difference between a "display car" and a "test-drive/demo car". The latter is registered before it becomes a test-drive car, while a display car is one that the dealer keeps in the showroom rather than the stock yard. It is difficult to argue in this case because merely keeping the car in the showroom for display purposes does not make it a used car. My opinion only, an you may check the law books if there is a specific clause for "display" cars.
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Old 9th November 2012, 15:54   #21
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Default re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

Quote:
Originally Posted by fi.robin View Post
Guys thanks for the prompt reply. My friend is not a team-bhp member but is following this thread.

Here are a few things that you have asked and I missed in the earlier post.

I am not sure which dealer it is, both sound similar so couldn't register. I'll ask him again but think it is Ravindu

I understand that we all should not buy a car without a PDI. But the portion of the duly informed/aware is minuscule. I wish he had consulted me before buying. What is done is done.
Please can you give us a clear timeline of this case ? Complete details of dealer and location will also help others reading this thread to be careful.

The sequence of events could be clearly mentioned for us to give you views on the subject. As you rightly mentioned, what has happened has happened, we will try to help you.

If the dealer has admitted that a display car has been sold, then why are they refusing to give a new car ? Your friend should insist on the same as he has been wronged.

Take this up at senior levels of Toyota management in India and insist for a representative to be present in the meeting when it concludes finally or the rogue dealer will try his best to escape.
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Old 9th November 2012, 16:37   #22
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Default re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

Suggest you to get clear details from your friend. Below are few,

1. Name of the Dealership
2. Display car/ Demo car
3. Odo reading during purchase
4. Mfg date and month. If you are unable to find that out, share the VIN#.

The fact that the dealer is ready to negotiate shows that there is something malicious. Tbhpian's have been in similar situations and can guide your friend better with complete information.

My suggest would be avoid legal hassles, its a lengthy and frustrating process with no end.

Last edited by mac187 : 9th November 2012 at 16:38.
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Old 9th November 2012, 16:41   #23
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Default re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sommos View Post
Also, comparision between a loaf of bread and a 17L Toyota Altis is not proper. Toyota Altis costs a lot of money.
Its upto Toyota to set up proper process in place to make sure this does not happen and if it does a way to monitor it and take corrective action.
The comparison with bread may not be logical wrt money, but apt with respect to business practices.
I am not saying PDI is not necessary. What I am saying is that its perfectly acceptable that people dont do PDI and have issues. Most common people are not on TBHP and do not have the privilege of a PDI. Also, we should not victimize a victim further by reminding him that he did not do a PDI. This is akin to telling a rape victim that the person did not take preventive action.
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Old 9th November 2012, 16:43   #24
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Default re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

My my. The much trusted, praised and highly spoken Toyota service also has wolves in sheep's clothing.
Your friend must not settle for anything less than a new car. As far as I know, a display car is abused at standstill position by most visitors. You would have seen them banging the doors, banging the bonnet and boot, fiddling with all the switches inside etc. These car's doors and switches would have been abused equalling to at least one year's usage on a regular car. All this negotiation etc is not going to help. I know it will involve much more effort but its about time these MNC car companies were taught a thing or two. They cannot take an Indian consumer for granted.

Not to digress from the ordeal your friend is having to go through, but it would have been interesting to note the number of pages and opinions in four hours, if the subjectline of this thread had read "Skoda" or "Volkswagen" instead of Toyota :-)

Last edited by hrman : 9th November 2012 at 16:48.
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Old 9th November 2012, 19:39   #25
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Default re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

Quote:
Originally Posted by hrman View Post
.... but it would have been interesting to note the number of pages and opinions in four hours, if the subjectline of this thread had read "Skoda" or "Volkswagen" instead of Toyota :-)

Well said there.

fi.robin - You haven't mentioned what the ODO reading of the car was while your friend took delivery of the car. One need not be a BHPian or a PDI guru to do that at the least.

But, if TOYOTA has tampered with that too, you have a bigger case of FRAUD here.

The only one who can help you here is TOYOTA as they would have a list of vehicles invoiced as DEMO cars. If by hook or crook, the friend can get access to that, we have a winner!

As someone mentioned this earlier, irrespective of what brand of vehicle it is - dealers are dealers. As long as everyone realizes the fact that dealers are in this business for large scale profits and 100% intolerant to even a pinch of loss. If the dealer has been allowed to get away with such a fraudulent action, Toyota has set wrong foot in the Indian market taking everything for granted. The tagline "Moving Forward" may need to be corrected to "Moving Backward"

Last edited by mempheS.D : 9th November 2012 at 19:46.
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Old 9th November 2012, 19:52   #26
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Default re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

Thanks to T-BHP, i am helping my friend in PDI - she is buying a Toyota Etios Diesel in the next few days, I told the dealer that we need to know the VIN number and month of manufacture etc., etc. and told him we would take delivery only when we do the PDI ourselves!

As GTO and others have asked, please do share the dealer's name - or is it a part of the deal that he is offering - that he would compromise if you do not share his name?

Some these dealers have multiple dealerships in various regions - for example Harsha is in Hyderabad and i learn also is in Chennai.

If they one is indulging in not-fair practices, it is possible the same wd be repeated in other places too!

Sharing will help.
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Old 9th November 2012, 19:57   #27
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Default re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

Quote:
Originally Posted by fi.robin View Post
Is it legal to sell a display car without informing the customer?
Inethical yes, illegal no. A display car is different from a demo car. Primary difference : It's not been driven by a 100 potential customers on public roads. The dealer can still get away by stating that it is indeed a new, unused car. Also in this case, the car was built in the same year that it was sold. It's not uncommon for folks to buy cars that were manufactured a handful of months earlier.

Your friend could strengthen his legal case by listing out all the defects in the car.

Ask him to thoroughly take up his case with Toyota directly. It's an extremely proactive organisation that should extend a helping hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoombiee View Post
Also, we should not victimize a victim further by reminding him that he did not do a PDI.
This is a mature community. If you want to discuss a problem, you should be prepared to have BHPians point the exact faults out. A thread that discusses a problem without a cause, or how the problem could have been avoided, is an incomplete thread.

Also, many of those newbies you speak about will be reading this thread (1000+ views already). If a visitor sees only this thread on Team-BHP, he'll become well aware of how to avoid facing the same problem himself.

Lastly, do note that there are some solid solutions also being provided.

IMP: Please reconfirm the dealer's name again and share it with us.

Last edited by GTO : 9th November 2012 at 19:59.
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Old 9th November 2012, 20:42   #28
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Default re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

The car was bought in July 2012. It is March manufactured 2012, I checked myself. I don't how many kms it had on the Odo at the delivery time. I'll ask if he remembers it. It seems he had complained in the first month itself and has been following since then. I know this because I remember talking to him well before purchasing my Yeti, so it has to be August or before.

The dealer is Ravindu. The head of the south zone of the dealer and my friend had a conversation where the other party agreed that it is a display car (not demo). The conversation was recorded. The same recording was sent to the Toyota, Japan as well as T Kirloskar, India. Reply from Japan was that it be settled in India as it is an Indian issue and they can't do much about it.

A representative of Toyota Kirloskar, dealer and my friend are parties in the negotiation. Both the other parties are saying the same thing.

Rumor is that Ravindu belongs to a member of the Kirloskar family. Shouldn't be had to validate if one wants.

My friend thinks the other parties are worried about bad publicity. He also believes that Media can easily be sold hence he is following Team-Bhp. He does not want to go all out with the publicity stunt just yet. He is looking for a peaceful resolution.

Actually I am now more convinced that he should go for a full refund or replacement with a new car at the least.

Problems that I know are:
1. boot door rattles at times and has problems opening and closing it (again at times)
2. Fuel lid also has problems in opening. He has to struggle at times.
3. He sees a minor dent and feels that area is repainted - around the boot and fuel lid
4. Boot door does not have consistent gap (related to above). I suspect the car was hit in the said area, repainted and delivered.
5. Remote key look and unlock stops working at times. This is strange as he has noticed it only at specific places, his gym and other places he frequents (I couldn't think of a plausible explanation for this one except cosmic rays being strong there )

Last edited by fi.robin : 9th November 2012 at 20:44.
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Old 10th November 2012, 06:51   #29
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Default re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

Here is my friend's version with details:


SUB: TOYOTA and its dealer RAVINDU FRAUD

Fraud List:

1. Sale of display car which we had asked not to sell . The car was on display at Ravindu Toyota , Marathalli.

Since we had seen the car for over a month from May in Ravindu Toyota showroom [ Marathalli] , we asked the dealer not to sell that car which was on Display. But they have sold it unethically the same car which was on display for several months.

According to us this is a fraud on part of Dealer. Please suggest how to go about legally here ?

2. Dealer misguided us during pre-sales, sale and after-sale of display car.

Pre-sale:
a. Initially when contacted sales guy Mr.Naveen at Ravindu Toyota, he said that the required Champagne Mica coloured Corolla Altis was available with them in the stock. At that point of time there was no Champagne Mica coloured car anywhere in Bangalore , with any dealer as a matter of fact. This is the first misguidance from Dealer , since they said it was in stockyard, which later turned out to be a display car.
b. When we actually asked the sales guy not to sell the display car, he in fact said that TOYOTA does not sell display cars without intimating the customer and that the car which would be delivered to us will be from stock. The same even confirmed by TOYOTA call centre guys, that TOYOTA will never sell display cars. [we have voice call recording of the same ! ]
c. Though we paid full amount on 28th June , the dealer dint deliver the car the next day and he stated that "the car is in stock and needs to be thoroughly cleaned and checked". One more lie.

During-sale:
a. When we had been for delivery of car, we saw that there was no car on display but was parked outside the showroom for delivery. On clarifications asked, the dealer stated that the car which was on display was sold to some other customer and they had sold nearly 15 cars that month.

b.The seat plastic covers were missing too. When later asked about it to Mr.Farook, Ravindu Customer Relations Head, he stated that "As per TOYOTA safety policy, seat plastic covers are removed and delivered". This was a perfect lie to cover up the situation.

After-sale:

a. Immediately after we drove to the car to home, the car driver door rubber beading came out, which was very very frustrating. We were disappointed that a luxury car like toyota altis had this fault even before pooja was performed.

b. Moreover to our surprise when my cousins and friend tried to close the opened boot , it dint get closed. Final knockout was that , the fuel lid dint open at all when we had been to long drive on the same first day.

c. Since day one the car became troublesome with trivial defects not expected out of brand-new car such as fuel - lid not opening. [even after 1 st. service is not repaired] , boot opening /closing , the security lock [at some places it does not work], we hear strange engine sound while driving , which might be faulty belt noise also. There is a fine dent at back of the car. The boot's alignment is wrong and rattles while driving.

d. Since very beginning we constantly contacted the sales guy Mr.Naveen, but he did not receive our call.

e. With fuel lid not opening up along with several defects , we gave the car for 1st service on 21st July 2012. More to our surprise, the defects dint get resolved at all even after service. Neither the fuel lid was opening properly nor the boot got closed, in fact it got worsen.

f. These consistent defect and fine dent at the back of the car made us suspicious about the car and we complained to TOYOTA on 23rd July 2012 with Mr. Nikhil, Toyota Customer Relations Division - Head of South Region.

g. The dealer came back to us once again with the same lie that the car sold was not a display but car from stockyard. The people present were Mr.Farook, Customer Relations Head, Mr. Srinath, Branch Manager - Ravindu Marthahalli and Mr.Naveen - sales guy.

h. When asked to substantiate with suitable documents regarding the stock status of the car over several meetings , the dealer finally accepted that it was a display car that was sold to us. This was accepted in front of Mr.Nikhil, TOYOTA customer relations head, south Region.


TOYOTA response to this

a. Though initially they accepted the complaint regarding display car, later when it was proved there was no substantial action on their behalf. In fact they along with dealer started convincing us that the display car are better than the stockyard cars. They have asked to get the car repaired for the defects. This was the only solution given by TOYOTA and they say its amicable solution for dealer and for customer.

b. Now neither TOYOTA nor dealer is ready to provide a brand new car. This issue has been very well known to following top management both in TOYOTA as well as in RAVINDU,

TOYOTA Top Management:
i. Mr. Hiroshi Nakagawa, MD Toyota India.
ii. Mr. Vikram Kirloskar, Vice-Chairman , Toyota Kirloskar Motors
iii. TOYOTA CEO - AKIO TOYODA's secretary , JAPAN

RAVINDU Top Management:
i. Mr. Mallikarjuna Swamy, President RAVINDU Toyota
ii. Mrs. Meena Kirloskar, CEO , RAVINDU Toyota
iii. Nagma , Regional Head, RAVINDU Toyota

Now Toyota and dealer Ravindu have come to negotiation but with a clause of not getting car replaced with a brand new car. Kindly suggest what to do legally for this fraud.

Also still we are suspicious about so many fine defects and the fine dent. Please suggest as to how to certify the cause.

Finally we feel , Toyota and its dealer are treating us like slaves we roaming and reaching everyone we can without any substantial support from Toyota or Ravindu top management. They say "its unfortunate" but in reality they cant help, as though they are at high and the customers are at low. Got suitable call recordings to prove some of the crucial statements made by them.

From my side
Clearly he had no idea about the VIN number or that VIN contained critical information by which a car could be identified. He is not alone, almost everyone I talk to is unaware. I had not known about his purchase or else I would have certainly guided him.
The first service bill contains a part number (no name, it seems Toyota does not provide description for the part number) corresponding to which it is written 'warranty'. Means something done or replaced under warranty with 0 charge. Just an extra piece of information.

Last edited by fi.robin : 10th November 2012 at 06:58.
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Old 10th November 2012, 07:35   #30
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Default re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

Quote:
Originally Posted by fi.robin View Post
Fraud List:
1. Sale of display car which we had asked not to sell . The car was on display at Ravindu Toyota , Marathalli.
Selling a Display car is not something very uncommon and not illegal per se. We have bought display cars in the past due to several reasons. Heck, even this gentleman who almost spent a fortune on a RR did buy a Display car for the following reason:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kau_therock
....I am kind of an impatient guy, who likes everything to be quick. So I asked my parents, why not have the car which was in the showroom itself.
In your friend's case, since the dealer has overlooked your friend's demand and passed on a display car, it just raises an ethical issue and technically not a fraud.

From the dealer's standpoint it does not make sense to have a dedicated car for display purpose. I have been associated with Toyota for quite a long time and I have seen them change the display cars every two weeks or so.

Basically the display car forms a part of their inventory. Going by the stocking conditions of many Indian Car dealerships, a car is much better off inside a showroom than being stored in the Stockyard.

What gets me curious is that, while your friend was apprehensive about the dealership selling a display car, why did he not atleast take a thorough look before driving the car home? Sorry to say this, but there's a serious lapse on your friend's side too!

The point I am trying to convey here is, your friend has been sold a lemon. The problems that have been listed does not arise just because it was a display car.

Your primary channel of communication to TKM is only thru the dealer. You need to maintain a good a rapport with them.

Your friend may need to tweak his approach a little and try to focus on the real problems in the car rather than blaming the dealership. You will definitely see a radical change in the solution.

Moreover this being a dealership closely associated with TKM, I wouldn't expect TKM to take a very aggressive stand against the dealership.

Last edited by Warwithwheels : 10th November 2012 at 07:37.
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