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Old 16th November 2012, 10:53   #61
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Default Re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

^^ We are not talking about a TD car here and neither was a TD car sold. So leave it at that! And I know what a TD car is. Period.

There is something called PDI (Pre Delivery Inspection) which every dealer should do diligently before delivering a car. This practice is not followed or just rushed by most dealers. Hence the need for an exhaustive check by the party buying the car and I am sure the TBHP PDI list was born because of this.
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Old 16th November 2012, 11:12   #62
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Default Re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

Some excellent points made there.

I agree completely that every display car need not be in terrible condition. And also agree that "Caveat Emptor" holds- that the buyer should have ensured that everything was (at least superficially) OK when he took delivery. The "issues" listed seem to have been discovered ex-post facto. For all we know there may be no link between the issues and the fact that the car was a display vehicle.

But I differ on the point that display vehicles will be as good/bad as vehicles stored in stockyard. Stockyard vehicles are covered in white plastic sheeting (at least for VW Group) and are driven only by authorised personnel. Sure we can argue that those guys don't know how to treat a car well etc. but that's acceptable risk. Leaving a car at the mercy of adults and kids who, as mayank put it perfectly, do NOT treat it as if it were their own, in my opinion causes far more damage to the vehicle. At least I would not like to own a vehicle where some infant has drooled over the backseat or some hyperactive kid has been fiddling with the light switches.

Am coming across as totally anti-child arent' I?
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Old 16th November 2012, 12:02   #63
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Default Re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

Selling display units may be more prevalent as a practice amongst auto dealers than what most of us would like to believe. In fact, rotation of display units, although clandestine, is mostly well entrenched within their inventory management practice that most dealers across manufacturers, put in place. I have personally been a witness to this in a few occasions during my own purchase experience as well as those by others who were either my friends, relatives or colleagues. The first time it caught my attention was way back in 2003 and the latest has been as late as July this year.

During purchase process that I have been through myself or influenced, I have always adopted a practice of asking the dealer to send across the VINs of the selected color for me to personally pick the unit after physical inspection in the stock yard. As a measure of hedging myself against cover ups, I always land up for PDI at a very short notice of may be a few hours or so. A few times I have observed that one of the VINs offered to me was found missing in the yard and was finally traced lying in the showroom. Needless to mention, that the sales executive accompanying me would be visibly embarrassed at the revelation for which I have later enjoyed the benefit of an improved sales and service experience. I have also learnt from them that the dealers often put a freshly minted unit from factory on display for a few weeks to a few months depending on the sales volume, and before the ship from factory date can potentially become a cause of concern for even the informed buyers, they would 'quietly' sell it off. Sometimes they even put it back in the yard and allow it to be 're-weathered' by the elements to give the unit an authentic stock yard look. An unassuming buyer then would easily pick it up as it would more often look a little more cleaner than the others in the vicinity.

Now, I would not say that the show room piece as a rule is always the one to avoid. On the contrary, especially for those dealers who have put this demo piece rotation as a policy and do it meticulously, it is often that the demo unit is more recent, better cared for and often without a glitch, as the defects uncovered during close inspection are simply replaced with new parts. Its easy to see that it is in the interest of the dealer to maintain the demo unit better. For one, the piece on demo needs to be ideally impeccable and second, they can then do away from investing on a separate demo unit for every model that the manufacturer launches. The problem happens with those dealers who keep a unit for extended periods of time without taking adequate care of the demo unit.

On one instance, a friend of mine consciously chose a showroom piece as during PDI, we found it to be newer and better maintained than the others the dealer carried in their stock yard. He then cleverly used the opportunity to negotiate a free extended warranty in return. Now clearly, this does not hold good for a test-drive vehicle.
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Old 16th November 2012, 12:09   #64
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Default Re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

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Originally Posted by noopster View Post
...For all we know there may be no link between the issues and the fact that the car was a display vehicle.
Bang on!

Quote:
...Stockyard vehicles are covered in white plastic sheeting (at least for VW Group) and are driven only by authorised personnel. Sure we can argue that those guys don't know how to treat a car well etc. but that's acceptable risk.
Maybe you are lucky to have come across dealers who care so much for the cars in their stockyard.

Unfortunately, my experience has always been unpleasant with the dealer stockyards.

I know of one of the largest Maruti dealers who also has a petrol bunk and a parcel service company in the immediate vicinity.

It is a common sight that brand new cars are stored on the frontage of the bunk where there are atleast 10,000 footfalls a day.

Regarding the display cars, if the showroom sales person is quite smart, he/she can always politely control the undesirable demo on a display car. That said, I fully subscribe to your view that people/ children kinda tend to mishandle a display car.

Moreover, not every car the dealer stocks gets into the showroom. It could be just .01% chance that a new car gets into his showroom.

BTW... we have a full fledged thread running here about dealer stockyards

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...verywhere.html (Dealer godowns, is it the same horror story everywhere?)

Quoting a interesting case from the thread:

Quote:
The Passats were parked in deep slush during the rainy season and the workers were enjoying driving through the slush and splashing mud. All this on new cars before delivery. Dakshin honda has it the worst on hosur road. The car's have to go offroad then are brought into the showroom for delivery.
And a pic from a thread I can never forget.

Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer-347166d1273661718tyetiwritescarstoryreviewskodasuperbimg00086201004291416.jpg
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Old 16th November 2012, 12:49   #65
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Default Re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

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Originally Posted by noopster View Post
Some excellent points made there.

But I differ on the point that display vehicles will be as good/bad as vehicles stored in stockyard. Stockyard vehicles are covered in white plastic sheeting (at least for VW Group) and are driven only by authorised personnel. At least I would not like to own a vehicle where some infant has drooled over the backseat or some hyperactive kid has been fiddling with the light switches.
There can be two viewpoints to this. I have been to Maruti's stockyard and most of the cars there are dusty and dirty. I have seen a chotu just taking a dirty wet cloth and cleaning the car before delivery. Imagine the scratches on that new car. . It is a fact that showroom display cars will be better maintained, but at what cost? I'm guessing at least one year of rough usage on electrical fittings and doors happens on any display car.
The case here is to inform a customer that it is a display car before the deal. This is where Ravindu has consciously misrepresented and cheated the customer.

And I share your sentiments on kids going hammer and tongs over a display car with parents looking the other way since its not their car. I held back my views to not be called a child hater too. But adults are no better too.
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Old 16th November 2012, 13:33   #66
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While everyone has a view and some may run contradictory to the more acceptable norms let me put a few things in here to understand the ground we stand on.

1. Display cars may or may not be bad pieces but, and thats a big butt there blocking the way, if someone has clearly mentioned that he/she is not interested in a display piece as the OPs friend seems to have done then the entire transaction thereafter that happened is bad in law as the dealers violated one of the terms put across by the buyer

2. There are certain base expectations that people have when they reach out to buy a new merchandisable piece of good. It should be in perfect condition and it is new/unused. Now if a display piece is sold to a person I am sure it can be proven either ways, as used or unused by a competent lawyer. Remember, if you buy a vehicle and keep it standing for the next 6 months without driving it at all it will not be considered new. Similarly, people have fought and won cases when they realized that the dealer sold them a 9 month old piece although the car may not have had any provable kms on the clock at the time of sale.

So either ways, the OPs friend has a very, very strong point here when he raises objection for the car being a display piece along with having a set of shortfalls including repainted portions of bodywork. The two taken together is a very sureshot pointer to a bad piece having been sold by the dealer and having harmed the interest of the buyer intentionally.

Also, coming back to the debate, I see some of you talking about the car on display being well maintained and not used. To Noopsters point on kids jumping on the seats and abusing the controls as well as others also using the controls etc others countered on whether that really affects the car in any serious way. Believe me it does. Remember this, every piece of machinery, actuating device, switches, hinges etc come with a lifetime. A switch may have 100000 actuations as its lifetime. A door knob may have a similar numbers of actuations as its lifetime. A display car keeps standing at one place and people keep trying out the controls in their regular fiddling to understand the car better. They open and shut the doors 100s of times in a day. All that is reducing the life of each of these parts every day that the car is standing there on display. So why should someone pay full price to acquire something that has probably 1/10th of its life reduced due to all the user fiddlings?

There is a very valid point on why a display piece should never be considered at its full price. Never.

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Originally Posted by Warwithwheels View Post
Maybe you are lucky to have come across dealers who care so much for the cars in their stockyard.
His is not an isolated case. VW may be a premium brand and may be all premium brands have a better stocking philosophy for new cars. But let me talk of M&M. A very indian and some may even say a pedestrian brand? I will agree with you. After all a tractor maker naa? Are you aware that their new cars have huge white stickers on all their body panels to cover them completely and bubble wraps on the bumpers (plastic part) to protect them? They take those off just before delivery. So the thought process of how to store the cars till they are delivered might very well be changing in this country. Does not look to me like a one off case.

Last edited by Zappo : 16th November 2012 at 13:38.
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Old 16th November 2012, 14:02   #67
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Default Re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

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While everyone has a view and some may run contradictory to the more acceptable norms let me put a few things in here to understand the ground we stand on.
Yes. I think thats what a public Forum is made of. Opinions!

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Originally Posted by Zappo View Post
1. Display cars may or may not be bad pieces but, and thats a big butt there blocking the way, if someone has clearly mentioned that he/she is not interested in a display piece as the OPs friend seems to have done then the entire transaction thereafter that happened is bad in law as the dealers violated one of the terms put across by the buyer
Exactly. If the buyer was not interested in the display piece, its hould not have been sold to him.

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Originally Posted by Zappo View Post
2. There are certain base expectations that people have when they reach out to buy a new merchandisable piece of good. It should be in perfect condition and it is new/unused. Now if a display piece is sold to a person I am sure it can be proven either ways, as used or unused by a competent lawyer. Remember, if you buy a vehicle and keep it standing for the next 6 months without driving it at all it will not be considered new. Similarly, people have fought and won cases when they realized that the dealer sold them a 9 month old piece although the car may not have had any provable kms on the clock at the time of sale.
In this particular case, the vehicle was maufactured two months prior to delivery. This is fair enough. Also its a normal practice in the industry to sell the old piece at a fairly good discount. I personally know many such cases.

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Originally Posted by Zappo View Post
Also, coming back to the debate, I see some of you talking about the car on display being well maintained and not used. To Noopsters point on kids jumping on the seats and abusing the controls as well as others also using the controls etc others countered on whether that really affects the car in any serious way. Believe me it does. Remember this, every piece of machinery, actuating device, switches, hinges etc come with a lifetime. A switch may have 100000 actuations as its lifetime. A door knob may have a similar numbers of actuations as its lifetime. A display car keeps standing at one place and people keep trying out the controls in their regular fiddling to understand the car better. They open and shut the doors 100s of times in a day. All that is reducing the life of each of these parts every day that the car is standing there on display. So why should someone pay full price to acquire something that has probably 1/10th of its life reduced due to all the user fiddlings?

There is a very valid point on why a display piece should never be considered at its full price. Never.
The starter motor of a car has a life of 50,000 starts. The vehicle is first started before being driven off the assembly line for various tests. It is again started while being driven to company stock yard. It is started while being un loaded from the truck. It is started again while being driven to showroom and for registration. Can you ask for a price reduction because the car was started for say around 10 times?

Why else do you think all the cars carry a warranty period?

Lets take switches for example. Lets assume that the figure you quoted for life time of a swich is correct. Even then can somebody operate a switch for 1000 times while the car is being displayed?

Coming to kids jumping around / manhandling the switches and doors ; yes its a possibility. but the automotive grade of switches and handles are built to last the life of the car and there are exhaustive tests conducted to prove their life time. Also there is a defenite possibility of the cars being manhandled at the dealer stock yard.

Coming back to this particular case. The friend of the OP might have been sold a car involved in an accident. who knows. Thats precisely the reason I think that display car and new car with defects are two different things!
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Old 16th November 2012, 15:08   #68
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Default Re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

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The starter motor of a car has a life of 50,000 starts. The vehicle is first started before being driven off the assembly line for various tests. It is again started while being driven to company stock yard. It is started while being un loaded from the truck. It is started again while being driven to showroom and for registration. Can you ask for a price reduction because the car was started for say around 10 times?

Why else do you think all the cars carry a warranty period?
Why are you trying to relate something which has not been said anywhere? Do you call all the cars (since the starter motor has been used 10 times) a display car? So then? Why is the question for asking a discount coming in here?


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Lets take switches for example. Lets assume that the figure you quoted for life time of a swich is correct. Even then can somebody operate a switch for 1000 times while the car is being displayed?
Not somebody. Many bodies... On a more serious note, yes, in fact the switch may be turned on off many more times depending on the car and the footfall in the showroom. A popular Maruti showroom may have a car's particular switch (specifically those on the front fascia and control switches) turned on/off more than 1000 times if it is kept on the display for even 3 days. remember, any person who sits in the display car may try the "khat-khat" routine a couple of times at least. And if the missus is also sitting next to him in the car she may also fancy her attempt at the switch. If it is a novelty feature you can even double that chance.

The point is not count which switch, how many times, total of how many such switch etc. The bottomline is that the display car will always have it's switches and controls fiddled with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCR View Post
Coming to kids jumping around / manhandling the switches and doors ; yes its a possibility. but the automotive grade of switches and handles are built to last the life of the car and there are exhaustive tests conducted to prove their life time. Also there is a defenite possibility of the cars being manhandled at the dealer stock yard.
What is the definition of a lifetime? Unfortunately most people talk in intangibles. However, any product that comes out in the market including OEM consumables like switches, hinges, rubber beadings etc have their lifetime specified by the manufacturer in terms of actuations, kms and in some cases also in terms of exposure to elements. For example a door beading made of rubber may have a lifetime of X number of opening and closing of the door at certain force in ideal conditions (that being no exposure to sun or rain). Now, a display vehicle that has its doors opened and shut again and again will have the door beadings taking the hit along with a few other mechanisms like the door switches.

So why should you buy a car at full price that you already know may very well have suffered some wear and tear? A warranty may be there for you for the next 2 years. But will you relish it if one or two parts show early signs of failure within warranty and you have to run to get them changed? You will grumble and complain although the replacement will happen for free. Also, the bigger risk will be for the parts which will fail after 3 years. Well after the warranty expires. The chances are that you might have had that part running longer had it not been a display vehicle that so many people handled.

Now talking about yards and chances of people mishandling a vehicle there etc is like playing Russian Roullete. Where do you stop? It is like countering the suggestion to not touch a livewire with an argument that in any case any electrical equipment may have a leaking wire anyways that can give you a shock jolt.

Enough said.
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Old 19th November 2012, 16:33   #69
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Default Re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

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Originally Posted by Zappo View Post
Why are you trying to relate something which has not been said anywhere? Do you call all the cars (since the starter motor has been used 10 times) a display car? So then? Why is the question for asking a discount coming in here?
No. It was a relative statement to compare the usage!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zappo View Post
What is the definition of a lifetime? Unfortunately most people talk in intangibles. However, any product that comes out in the market including OEM consumables like switches, hinges, rubber beadings etc have their lifetime specified by the manufacturer in terms of actuations, kms and in some cases also in terms of exposure to elements. For example a door beading made of rubber may have a lifetime of X number of opening and closing of the door at certain force in ideal conditions (that being no exposure to sun or rain). Now, a display vehicle that has its doors opened and shut again and again will have the door beadings taking the hit along with a few other mechanisms like the door switches.
Examples :
1.The door beadings are designed for worst climate operations. In between -20 Deg. Cel. to +60 Deg. Cel. It can be exposed to sun and rain. It does not hamper the rubber/function in any way.
2. Lifetime of a car is normally considered to be 15 years, in India.

Is it tangible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zappo View Post
So why should you buy a car at full price that you already know may very well have suffered some wear and tear? A warranty may be there for you for the next 2 years. But will you relish it if one or two parts show early signs of failure within warranty and you have to run to get them changed? You will grumble and complain although the replacement will happen for free. Also, the bigger risk will be for the parts which will fail after 3 years. Well after the warranty expires. The chances are that you might have had that part running longer had it not been a display vehicle that so many people handled.
Ask any Dealer / Manufacturer for a discount on display car. Please report if somebody is offering the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zappo View Post
Now talking about yards and chances of people mishandling a vehicle there etc is like playing Russian Roullete. Where do you stop? It is like countering the suggestion to not touch a livewire with an argument that in any case any electrical equipment may have a leaking wire anyways that can give you a shock jolt.
So you agree that cars can be handled in a much worser way.

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Originally Posted by Zappo View Post
Enough said.
Thanks

Last edited by MCR : 19th November 2012 at 16:35.
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Old 23rd November 2012, 12:52   #70
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Default Re: Ravindu Toyota sells *Display* Altis to an unsuspecting customer

On Wednesday Nikhil from Toyota and 2 other gentlemen from Ravindu came to inspect the car. I was with my friend for some time.

Before they arrived we took the car out in the light to see if the repaint part is clearly visible. The front bumper and the fender had different shades. When the the car was inspected by the other Toyota dealer (sometime back, twice) and told that it is repainted, I had thought that it was boot. Later I came to know that it is the front fender area. Actually the guys from the other dealer were very confident about the repaint but refused to give it in writing (friend's wife has a video recording of the same). I struggled to find any tell tale signs of repaint other than the difference in the fender/bumper shades, but I am no expert.


The three gents asked us for the problems in the car. They didn't find anything wrong with the fuel lid and boot. I pointed to the difference in the gap around the lights. Part of the tail light is on the boot door and the other part on the body. On the left side the gap between the two was less. We also found an outward dent on the lower part of the rear bumper. Not sure if these are actually a result of something or it is just a non issue.

The color of the car is golden. Mr Nikhil tried selling that the difference in the shade is because of the material, metal/plastic. He had no answer why the same difference does not exist on the rear side. I am not sure how things are with the new cars.

After I left they investigated further and offered coupons worth 5 thousand rupees .

Since the car is with my friend I suggested him to get the repaint story certified by a reputed paint shop. Is there a reputed body shop in Bangalore who can certify the repainting part?
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