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Old 20th August 2014, 12:50   #46
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Default re: Awful BMW X1 buying experience from Navnit Motors, Mangalore. UPDATE: Issue Resolved

You are completely right in taking the steps you have took to. It is your money and your wish to proceed with the matter however you choose to.
I bet anynone of us would want a single scratch to their cars either, even to the smallest hatchbacks let alone to an almost half a crore car.

You are also right in demanding compensation in lieu of replacing parts as for the same points you mentioned, i.e.
1. Taking the car to Bangalore to rectify the hatch glass.
No matter how, either on a open/ covered flat bed or drive, who would be responsible for any damage during transit.
Firstly, why should you have to even worry about such things, does this not amount to mentally harassing a customer for no fault of his?
Also would the dealership have provided the customer with a replacement car while the car was under repair?
Why should a customer be liable for any loss of usage arising out of defects.
2. Asking for compensation.
I am sure the BSI package as you said would not have costed them more than the cost of replacing the parts. When the dealership have finally agreed to it now, why didn't they take the necessary steps while they had things in hand and only when threatened with drastic steps did they step up.
While a person is buying a commodity like a BMW, he is not only paying for the car, but also the brand value and such dealerships are only eroding the same.
As a customer, they were definitely obliged to treat you worth the money they made quoting the BMW brand.

Each of us will have a different opinion Mr Sunil and you are free to take somebody's advice if you like it.
The fact is, dealerships are treating customers as a cash-cow and any unsuspecting person can be fooled into buying a lemon and then make money by getting them to pay for repairs.

Good to know your issue has finally been amicably resolved.
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Old 20th August 2014, 13:05   #47
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Default re: Awful BMW X1 buying experience from Navnit Motors, Mangalore. UPDATE: Issue Resolved

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Originally Posted by srs_shetty87 View Post
You are completely right in taking the steps you have took to. It is your money and your wish to proceed with the matter however you choose to.
I bet anynone of us would want a single scratch to their cars either, even to the smallest hatchbacks let alone to an almost half a crore car.

You are also right in demanding compensation in lieu of replacing parts as for the same points you mentioned, i.e.
1. Taking the car to Bangalore to rectify the hatch glass.
No matter how, either on a open/ covered flat bed or drive, who would be responsible for any damage during transit.
Firstly, why should you have to even worry about such things, does this not amount to mentally harassing a customer for no fault of his?
Also would the dealership have provided the customer with a replacement car while the car was under repair?
Why should a customer be liable for any loss of usage arising out of defects.
2. Asking for compensation.
I am sure the BSI package as you said would not have costed them more than the cost of replacing the parts. When the dealership have finally agreed to it now, why didn't they take the necessary steps while they had things in hand and only when threatened with drastic steps did they step up.
While a person is buying a commodity like a BMW, he is not only paying for the car, but also the brand value and such dealerships are only eroding the same.
As a customer, they were definitely obliged to treat you worth the money they made quoting the BMW brand.

Each of us will have a different opinion Mr Sunil and you are free to take somebody's advice if you like it.
The fact is, dealerships are treating customers as a cash-cow and any unsuspecting person can be fooled into buying a lemon and then make money by getting them to pay for repairs.

Good to know your issue has finally been amicably resolved.
Completely Agree with you.

1. since the entire delivery procedure relating to PDI, Then Invoice , then Insurance and finally Registration has not been followed in the same order
2. Why should a supposedly new car be tampered and tinkered with ?
3. Who is responsible for the loss if god forbid the Flat bed or container topples or the vehicle is damaged while in Transit

The Dealer finally agreed for the settlement which would satisfy me, as a few bookings, scheduled deliveries were standing the chance of being cancelled. further i am no stranger to consumer courts as well as to alternative Dispute reversal mechanisms as i have handled quite a few of these cases, of myself as well as of quite a few clients. Also i believe they have received a few calls from the Department of consumer Affairs, Govt. of India, as well as the Competition Commission of India, the BIS as well as the National Consumer Helpline after which they got an inkling of what was in store for them. Supposing they are asked to take back the car and / or compensate monetarily for mental stress and harassment to the extent of 25% of the Transaction value, Plus exemplary penalty of about 10 times the Transaction value to be credited to the National Consumer Welfare fund, they along with BMW India would have to shut shop!

As i said and disagreed with most of the distinguished members on this thread who had offered their advice to compromise and accept the solution offered by the dealer i stood my ground, since the Volkswagen India case was similar to mine and sets a legal precedent which is reproduced below:



MUMBAI: A consumer forum has pulled up an automobile company and its dealer over sale of a defective four-wheeler. The forum last week directed the car dealer and the company to pay nearly Rs 3 lakh as compensation and a refund Rs 9.12 lakh to a Vashi man who alleged that the new car he bought in 2011 had already undergone servicing for faults at a workshop.

The forum observed that KSM Motors and Volkswagen Passenger Care India had indulged in unfair trade practice.

The complainant, Bharat Kariya, had purchased the Volkswagen Vento's petrol version after being informed by the dealer that the diesel version had a waiting period of six months. Kariya had procured a car loan and accordingly paid Rs 7.23 lakh as the price of car, Rs 90,473 towards VAT and Rs 98,227 towards registration. After waiting for more than a month, Kariya was finally given possession of the car. However, he noticed that there were paint stains on various spots, both inside and on the surface of the car. He alleged that when this was brought to the notice of the representative, he was told that the car was kept at the workshop and that could be the reason for the spots. Kariya said that he finally took the car home but the next day he called up the company and told it about the problem. But despite an assurance no representative was sent to look into the problem. On February 16, 2011, Kariya took the car back to the dealer who took a note of the problem.

He filed a complaint before the additional Mumbai district consumer disputes redressal forum on June 14, 2011. The forum said that by stating that it had repaired the damage and tried to coax Kariya to take possession, the car dealer had proved that the vehicle was indeed faulty

Last edited by Sunilrj : 20th August 2014 at 13:14.
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Old 20th August 2014, 13:13   #48
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Default re: Awful BMW X1 buying experience from Navnit Motors, Mangalore. UPDATE: Issue Resolved

Elsewhere within this forum, Harishv's case has also been settled, more than (hold your breath) 6 years later.

Dealerships and car company's need to understand what the customer goes through before and after they buy a car. They cannot just wash off their hands from every small or big issue.
At least in India most customers are reasonable and only ask for compensation or replacement within acceptable levels.
If like any western country, consumers had the option to go to court and get a fat compensation, perhaps such cases wouldn't have occurred in the first place.
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Old 20th August 2014, 13:17   #49
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Default re: Awful BMW X1 buying experience from Navnit Motors, Mangalore. UPDATE: Issue Resolved

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Originally Posted by srs_shetty87 View Post
Elsewhere within this forum, Harishv's case has also been settled, more than (hold your breath) 6 years later.

Dealerships and car company's need to understand what the customer goes through before and after they buy a car. They cannot just wash off their hands from every small or big issue.
At least in India most customers are reasonable and only ask for compensation or replacement within acceptable levels.
If like any western country, consumers had the option to go to court and get a fat compensation, perhaps such cases wouldn't have occurred in the first place.
Yes, i have read of Harish Kanchans case.

In India, we Customers rarely do raise a voice and accept for something not so perfect when they are entailed to something better and quite a few have thought that i have been making a mountain out of a molehill!
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Old 20th August 2014, 13:25   #50
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Default re: Awful BMW X1 buying experience from Navnit Motors, Mangalore. UPDATE: Issue Resolved

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Originally Posted by Sunilrj View Post

Of course due to some non disclosure conditions that i will have to adhere to, i may not be in a position to write in detail about the terms of the resolution.
Now this is what hate most about such threads including Harishv't thread on Skoda nightmare. All the members who gave moral support and advice to the fellow member who got caught in such incidents are left at the end wondering what exactly happened and how the issue got resolved. Some people just use the forum like Team BHP to arm twist and blackmail the dealers for their own vested interests. If every communication and mails can be made public why not the terms of resolution? Why non disclosure agreement come in to picture only at this stage? This is just like going to watch a movie whose climax has been edited out.

Last edited by poloman : 20th August 2014 at 13:27.
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Old 20th August 2014, 14:38   #51
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Default re: Awful BMW X1 buying experience from Navnit Motors, Mangalore. UPDATE: Issue Resolved

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Now this is what hate most about such threads including Harishv't thread on Skoda nightmare. All the members who gave moral support and advice to the fellow member who got caught in such incidents are left at the end wondering what exactly happened and how the issue got resolved. Some people just use the forum like Team BHP to arm twist and blackmail the dealers for their own vested interests. If every communication and mails can be made public why not the terms of resolution? Why non disclosure agreement come in to picture only at this stage? This is just like going to watch a movie whose climax has been edited out.
Simple, maybe the other party has invoked the clause and with due respect to the dealership, they can do so since they have satisfied the aggrieved party.

Do you really think, someone would let their investment rot in a service center for 6 long years to get an amount similar or near about to what they paid for the car? I have never heard of any cases where the court has passed a judgement asking the car dealer / company to pay the customer an amount disproportionate with the price of the car.

Yes i do agree to what you said, people do take advantage of a public forum for their interests, but it is our attitude towards people who complain that has given these dealerships and car company's the benefit of doubt rather than the customer who paid for it with their own money.
Isn't a customers reputation in the society at stake if proved false? would somebody be ready to take the mental stress for such gains?

Also don't you think such comments on a public forum will discourage people from raising a voice against dealers who try to take advantage of a customers ignorance?
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Old 20th August 2014, 15:15   #52
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Default re: Awful BMW X1 buying experience from Navnit Motors, Mangalore. UPDATE: Issue Resolved

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Some people just use the forum like Team BHP to arm twist and blackmail the dealers for their own vested interests.
Quote:
Also don't you think such comments on a public forum will discourage people from raising a voice against dealers who try to take advantage of a customers ignorance?
I will partially agree - " vested "will be little harsh

Quote:
If every communication and mails can be made public why not the terms of resolution? Why non disclosure agreement come in to picture only at this stage?
Yes , for benefits & curiosity of fellow members at least some broad agreement terms can be mentioned - like in this case - say- BMW Dealer agreed to give 50 % or whatever reduction on BSI or Dealer gave vouchers for Holiday's & maybe in Harish's case - SKODA settled for a lumpsum payment of an amount which was close to resale price of Car at time of incident or they agreed to give a New Car from VW family

Most of members here must have only written comments or posts without actually physically getting involved in any of efforts of actual sufferer but one must appreciate that collective representation on a forum had indeed helped & one should share as much information as possible in my opinion .

Last edited by Turbanator : 20th August 2014 at 15:20.
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Old 20th August 2014, 16:09   #53
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Default re: Awful BMW X1 buying experience from Navnit Motors, Mangalore. UPDATE: Issue Resolved

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I will partially agree - " vested "will be little harsh
My comment was not against one particular individual or incident. Off late these kind of behavior is increasing in social media not only in Team BHP. There was an 'Audi driven out of dealer's premise' incident in Mumbai for example, which created big hue and cry. A GPS company tried to make big bucks out of that. The truth never came out in public.
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Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post

Most of members here must have only written comments or posts without actually physically getting involved in any of efforts of actual sufferer but one must appreciate that collective representation on a forum had indeed helped & one should share as much information as possible in my opinion .
It seems illogical when Harishv suddenly endorses Skoda management with out disclosing what really happened in the end. What about multiple people on the forum who opted not to buy Skoda , despite liking their cars? Can they now buy Skoda cars confidently?

I really don't know whether the non disclosure agreement is from dealer side or the individual. What the manufacturer or dealer will gain by not disclosing their generous acts which made up for their earlier misadventures?

Last edited by poloman : 20th August 2014 at 16:13.
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Old 20th August 2014, 16:32   #54
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Default re: Awful BMW X1 buying experience from Navnit Motors, Mangalore. UPDATE: Issue Resolved

I am editing the post I had written as there is no option to delete. Dont want to start an argument, so mods kindly delete my post. Just my 2 cents, always 2 sides to the story and TBHP should not be a party to discount negotations.

Last edited by aseem : 20th August 2014 at 16:47.
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Old 20th August 2014, 16:47   #55
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Default re: Awful BMW X1 buying experience from Navnit Motors, Mangalore. UPDATE: Issue Resolved

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Reading this thread reminds me of watching a program where someone in US sued a retail giant as they let a parrot loose in the store and it caused him mentral stress and trauma by seeing a bird fly and he jerked his neck and cant hug his daughter the way he used to and has a bird phobia now.
Really?? That one is downright hilarious.
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Old 20th August 2014, 16:57   #56
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Default re: Awful BMW X1 buying experience from Navnit Motors, Mangalore. UPDATE: Issue Resolved

Sunil, good to know that the issue has been resolved to your satisfaction. After a turbulent start, now you can really get on with the BMW ownership experience
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Old 20th August 2014, 17:18   #57
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Default re: Awful BMW X1 buying experience from Navnit Motors, Mangalore. UPDATE: Issue Resolved

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Originally Posted by poloman View Post
Now this is what hate most about such threads including Harishv't thread on Skoda nightmare. All the members who gave moral support and advice to the fellow member who got caught in such incidents are left at the end wondering what exactly happened and how the issue got resolved. Some people just use the forum like Team BHP to arm twist and blackmail the dealers for their own vested interests. If every communication and mails can be made public why not the terms of resolution? Why non disclosure agreement come in to picture only at this stage? This is just like going to watch a movie whose climax has been edited out.

Now this is going to be one long post. first let me make it clear that i fight on my own and i have not used the forum to arm twist and blackmail the dealer, as the emails have gone further than being published on the forum and before being published here. intact T-bhp has been quoted only in the penultimate mail to the dealer. the complaints have been lodged with the competition Commission of India, The Nodal officer, Department of Consumer Affairs, Government of India, The Karnataka State Consumer disputes redressal forum, The Compliance and Legal Cell of BMW AG, Germany, the National Consumer Helpline, Consumer Online Resource and empowerment Cell, The Voluntary organisation in the interest of Consumer education.

The communication as well as mails have been made public, so that any aggrieved person who doesn't know where to start from from take off from where i had started. i.e. the Delivery Note and Gate Pass; as well as relevant case laws have been provided and the angle criminal conspiracy with an intention to deceive has also been covered.

when a settlement is reached, normally a non-disclosure clause is added. the Non disclosure clause is basically about 'Not making public the settlement provided' on Public forums. if you read between the lines, the NDC does not mention that you cannot discuss it with your family, friends, relatives, brothers and sisters in the automobile owners fraternity; as long as the same is not in public domain


Quote:
Originally Posted by srs_shetty87 View Post
Simple, maybe the other party has invoked the clause and with due respect to the dealership, they can do so since they have satisfied the aggrieved party.


Yes i do agree to what you said, people do take advantage of a public forum for their interests, but it is our attitude towards people who complain that has given these dealerships and car company's the benefit of doubt rather than the customer who paid for it with their own money.
Isn't a customers reputation in the society at stake if proved false? would somebody be ready to take the mental stress for such gains?

Also don't you think such comments on a public forum will discourage people from raising a voice against dealers who try to take advantage of a customers ignorance?
well since i have been actively involved in Consumer Issues and Consumer Education and was invited by the Karnataka State Government to be a 'whole time member' of the DK District Consumer Disputes Redressal forum, which i had to politely decline as it would adversely affect my profession, i Stand for what is right, the truth and justice.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
I will partially agree - " vested "will be little harsh


Yes , for benefits & curiosity of fellow members at least some broad agreement terms can be mentioned - like in this case - say- BMW Dealer agreed to give 50 % or whatever reduction on BSI or Dealer gave vouchers for Holiday's & maybe in Harish's case - SKODA settled for a lumpsum payment of an amount which was close to resale price of Car at time of incident or they agreed to give a New Car from VW family

Most of members here must have only written comments or posts without actually physically getting involved in any of efforts of actual sufferer but one must appreciate that collective representation on a forum had indeed helped & one should share as much information as possible in my opinion .
well if you read between the lines about the dealer offered resolutions and customer proposed resolutions, you would know that there has been no holiday voucher, nor cash that has exchanged hands. I get to keep the car in its stock condition.

well in my case most members have suggested that i go in for the replacement of the hatch glass and running board which would have increased my suffering, I'm sure

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Originally Posted by poloman View Post
My comment was not against one particular individual or incident.

It seems illogical when Harishv suddenly endorses Skoda management with out disclosing what really happened in the end. What about multiple people on the forum who opted not to buy Skoda , despite liking their cars? Can they now buy Skoda cars confidently?

I really don't know whether the non disclosure agreement is from dealer side or the individual. What the manufacturer or dealer will gain by not disclosing their generous acts which made up for their earlier misadventures?
well even before harish's Case was settled, i have been treated quite well by Skoda India, particularly Sudhir rao, Nilesh Chauan, Chethan Bhartiya, Reena Gade, Ravindran Kolapurath, Paritosh Koppikar, a certain Nithin from the R&D and Tech Team. so i didn't opt out of buying a Skoda after reading that thread, nor did Distinguished BHPian Shankar and the rest. in fact till July 2014 i had two Skodas! if someone opted out from buying a car, it was because they didn't want to take any 'risk', and it was their personal Choice. a few bad experiences of a few owners, cannot be said to happen to everyone. sometimes its sheer bad luck that you end up with a lemon or some major defect in a car (have been through this with my Linea, which had a leaky floor) and is detailed on this forum. to be honest, i have given Skoda about 15 -20 Customers from Mangalore and Manipal, who would never have purchased a Skoda after the horrible A.S.S stories that they have read and heard about. but now their perception has changed quite a bit and are very satisfied with their drives

what does the manufacturer gain by non disclosure ? the answer to this lies in thousands of complaints against manufacturers which have been dismissed by the various consumer fora which were made with the sole unscrupulous aim of milking some money out of the manufacturer/ service provider. one such complaint which i can quote is of a doctor who has filed a case in a consumer court against every single manufacturer stating that the cars are defective. his modus operandi was buy the car, then within a week raise an issue of some noise emanating from the car (like wind noise, tyre noise, suspension noise) and put it for repairs. continue with the same complaint for 3-4 months with the dealership, file a complaint with the Consumer Forum for the cost of the car + compensation and stop paying the EMI to the Bank. unfortunately, this worked just 4 times and the 5th time onwards the Court was shown his track record.

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Originally Posted by aseem View Post

I am glad it all got sorted out & you were able to leverage this forum to get the discount that you wanted to begin with. I feel TBHP off late is being leveraged for questionable reasons and we need to be careful of what we do or dont endorse as a forum taking into account there are always two sides of the story & very often we only get to hear one side of the story to jump to conclusions that tarnish an entire brand reputation. I am not someone to judge whether in this case this is indeed the scenario or not but reading some of the comments on this thread I feel we should be very catious in such cases. I realise TBHP has a lot of power and maybe in future if I get cheated or stuck I will leverage this as well.

Again no offence meant intended towards anyone but feel that we need to highlight the other side of the story as well in these circumstances.
well Aseem, the discounts, negotiations and payments had been all settled before July 31st and the car was delivered on 4th August. The RTGS itself was completed on 31st July 9.50 am. so the question of leveraging the forum to get the discount that i needed didn't arise. even the BSI ultimate Package has been paid for on the 31st. this thread was opened on 5th August. and like i had mentioned to you in my first PM to you, discounts vary between states and even cities. for eg. in Mangalore the Insurance is for Zone B and so lesser, whereas in Bangalore its Zone A and Higher Premium; so comparing discounts and haggling with the dealer about a discount offered in some other city, or a compensation offered by some other dealer, or posting some negative facts about a brand or dealer even before the deal has been struck may sometimes be with the intention of leveraging the forum for ones vested interest

secondly there are no two sides to this story at least as the photos of the chipped wheels, the delivery note and gate pass are uploaded here which are acknowledged by the dealer. thirdly the sequence of events like PDI, Invoicing and billing, registration and insurance, have not been followed in the order that they have to, and acknowledged by the dealer as well.

thirdly There has been no attempt to tarnish any brand. its the lethargy of the dealer from the beginning that has been highlighted. Also Probably to some extent that you need to be extra cautious even after having done your PDI and maintained a trail of mails right from the beginning. if you are to visit a place like Leela in bangalore, and are served some rotten food, am sure you will not keep quiet but raise a hell right there as well as on social media.

Last edited by Sunilrj : 20th August 2014 at 17:34.
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Old 20th August 2014, 17:22   #58
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Default re: Awful BMW X1 buying experience from Navnit Motors, Mangalore. UPDATE: Issue Resolved

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Sunil, good to know that the issue has been resolved to your satisfaction. After a turbulent start, now you can really get on with the BMW ownership experience
Thanks. its still not fully resolved, as only the oral discussion has been completed! the written Confirmation is still awaited and is promised by EOD Friday
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Old 20th August 2014, 17:27   #59
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Default re: Awful BMW X1 buying experience from Navnit Motors, Mangalore. UPDATE: Issue Resolved

Some members of this forum have said T-BHP shouldn't be used by aggrieved car customers whose issues have not been addressed by car dealers/manufacturers' if they do not want to divulge the final outcome. This argument will only help car manufacturers/dealers and not the customers. Forums like T-BHP need to help genuine customers in dire straits who are running from pillar to post and not getting their genuine concerns addressed. I believe we should provide a platform for such genuine issues and discourage any prank cases with strict punishment (Permanent Ban from this forum, in addition to naming and shaming such acts).

Once the settlement has been reached between the concerned party and the manufacturer/dealer, there is hardly any value in knowing what was the settlement except that it will address the curiosity quotient and help in some coffee table talks. If a forum person is genuinely in need to understand the settlement because he/she is involved in a similar case with the same /different manufacturer then he/she can have a private discussion on the same. I am sure the aggrieved forum member will be happy to share the details in private (If not in writing, maybe in a call).
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Old 20th August 2014, 17:30   #60
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Default re: Awful BMW X1 buying experience from Navnit Motors, Mangalore. UPDATE: Issue Resolved

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Once the settlement has been reached between the concerned party and the manufacturer/dealer, there is hardly any value in knowing what was the settlement except that it will address the curiosity quotient and help in some coffee table talks. If a forum person is genuinely in need to understand the settlement because he/she is involved in a similar case with the same /different manufacturer then he/she can have a private discussion on the same. I am sure the aggrieved forum member will be happy to share the details in private (If not in writing, maybe in a call).
Fully Agree! read my take on Non Disclosure Norms a few posts above!
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