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Old 23rd October 2016, 01:50   #61
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Default re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Aren't your an exception also?
You can do whatever technical evaluation, as if it will prove anything in Indian nexa context.
I'm not sure what you mean to say here.
Quote:
So a Hyundai product at 1 lakh plus is unreliable? I truely want to believe modern cars are better off.
The 3-cylinder CRDi engine was, according to many (though I didn't face reliability problems with it personally). Modern enough, I'd say.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 23rd October 2016 at 01:51.
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Old 23rd October 2016, 01:57   #62
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Default re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

Request to Mods: The title of the thread is grossly misleading. Request you to change the thread title to something more appropriate. Firstly, the car was not destroyed. Secondly, it is not clearly known that Nexa Showroom or Dealership or the evaluator was solely responsible for whatever issue the car has.

When I saw the thread title, I imagined it would be about one of these
  1. A brand new S-Cross / Baleno banged by the dealership driver or was grossly damaged while in Nexa premises
  2. A Nexa driver banged a TD vehicle into a parked vehicle of the OP
We have also seen cases like tree branch / roof / building blocks from a construction site fall on a car while in dealership premises. I imagined this was another of those cases.

Here, the case seems to be little different. Unfortunately, there are a lot of loose ends here.
  • Any particular reason why the car was serviced at Autopsyche and not Hyundai service centers?
  • No answer to the question that if the car was modded. If Yes, to what extent?
  • Why drive a car that is emitting so much of smoke that the OP initially feared to be fire inside the car? No option of Uber / Ola to get back home? I cant Imagine myself driving home in a car surrounded by smoke and having my unwell and fasting wife. Never Ever.
  • Why no mechanic was called immediately or why no arrangements to tow the car to a Hyundai service station was not made?
  • In an ideal day, I would find it tough believe that red lining a few times and switching off the engine without letting it cool will destroy the turbo even in a ~1.2 L kms run car. It might have contributed to failure and pushed it early by a few days / weeks but cannot be the only reason for failure.
On the other hand, I can relate with some of the points the OP has mentioned as well.
  • I would not ask why OP did not accompany the test driver - sometimes, we operate by trust and such incidents teach us some lessons. I too learnt one now from this incident
  • It might be tough to believe that the turbo can get damaged by 15 minutes of hard driving - but to be on OP's side, we do not know how hard he drove.
    I have once managed to damage the engine of my friend's Yamaha Libero in a half hour hard drive. I was consistently driving at high rpms and accelerating and decelerating rapidly. It was tough for both of us when he told me next day that the bike was behaving weirdly and needed some engine work - he demanded half of the damage and I paid without hesitation as I had realized by the end of my ride that something was not right. But I had trusted that it will be alright once the engine cools off.
Till date, my experience with Nexa and Maruti has been decent. It might not be a 10/10 but never below 8/10. It has been a mixed bag for the masses though.However, for this incident, I would not hold the Nexa responsible.
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Old 23rd October 2016, 02:11   #63
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Default re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
I'm not sure what you mean to
Off topic: I meant you are not a typical common joe who would walk into a Showroom and ask for a test drive or evaluation. You are a knowledgeable person, you would analyze much more before even having a conversation with a nexa evaluator when the car broke down types.

Defenitely not something which I would expect from common non enthusiast (Many) I know of.

That's why I meant.
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Old 23rd October 2016, 04:27   #64
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Default Relook at the situation

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Originally Posted by himalyan_ice View Post
I've realised that this can be argued to the end of the world and back with no one wiser at any point of time.

...

I have now consumed myself with this episode for three days straight and am not going to answer each conjecture since it's draining beyond measure.
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Originally Posted by himalyan_ice View Post
I'm a little sad to see comments here almost justifying what happened.
This is a forum of motor-heads that WILL evaluate both sides of the story with as much information as possible. While you will get a fair share of nods showing empathy (and any help possible) to your situation, the majority WILL also evaluate whether there is a fault with the other party.

The earlier you understand this, the more useful the situation will be.

Many have made one very key and valid suggestion - you haven't even checked what exactly is wrong with the car and how bad is the situation.

I hope you make use of that advice.


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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Devil's advocate indeed!

An apology would be tantamount to a frank admission of guilt by the Nexa management. Not happening as a first instance. OTOH, premium or not, this country does not have a tradition of trust between individuals today (hey, a lot of us don't even trust our doctors!).

Why would anyone trust Nexa people to be too careful with one's car, and why should a Nexa manager trust a walk-in customer's version saying his car was perfect before the evaluators touched it? And why should members of this forum trust the OP's version without hearing from the Nexa chaps?

OP hasn't even taken a second opinion about what's wrong with the car.
+100 to this.

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
That is why a simple apology would mean a lot. And move on.
While your devil's advocate role might raise a lot of valid points, let me remind you the OP isn't looking for an apology - he wants a complete repair done of the car by Maruti/Nexa and that seems to be the only purpose of this thread.

Re-stating many many more that have already pointed out - the thread heading needs a edit.

Yes, clearly Nexa is at fault. Or atleast the associate/division responsible for the resale evaluation.

But there are far too many questionable points on the car's condition, what exactly is the damage at hand, how much of it is attributable to the 15 mins of "testing" and how much of is it to prior usage.

Last edited by ninjatalli : 23rd October 2016 at 04:33.
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Old 23rd October 2016, 07:31   #65
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Default re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

IF the evaluator who drove the car was indeed capable of doing this damage (I still couldn't figure out what the damage is, even in the 5th page) to the car's engine, then he needs to be employed by Maruti's product testing team.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Hyundai diesels in the initial days weren't really the epitome of reliability.
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Old 23rd October 2016, 07:47   #66
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Default re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

Old Verna's were apparently prone to turbo failure.

It must have been on its last legs and this hero (test driver) must have just pushed it into its grave.

You can get a used turbo from the scrapyard, a friend of mine had the same issue and got a used turbo for appx 25-30k incl installation.

Also could it be a hose that has burst? Last week hose on my crde Thar burst (from intercooler to the manifold) on the highway and power disappeared and a bit of black smoke appeared, got the hose replaced and all is well.

BTW, I think the title of this thread is a bit harsh.
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Old 23rd October 2016, 09:03   #67
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Default re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post


He is not worth being employed at any dealership, to figure out a car if he needed to do that like an excited new car buyer, god help that dealer.
Why? Because we assume he has ripped the engine so badly in 15 minutes that an otherwise perfect turbocharger gave away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post

Few also suggested that they would never allow their car to be test driven alone or even when they are present they reprimand. Why? are they scared their car would fall apart?
And yet that is exactly what has happened. We do not know how the car was driven, we do not know the previous history of the car, yet we are quick to blame the dealer's evaluator even though we have no evidence of them abusing the car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post


So a Hyundai product at 1 lakh plus is unreliable? I truely want to believe modern cars are better off.
Which is why it is highly improbable that a 15 minutes test drive will bust a turbocharger (no matter how hard its driven) unless it was already on its last legs.

I really think we all are debating based on a lot of assumptions. We don't even know what has happened, and clearly need more inputs to decidedly say what has happened. I believe the OP needs to come forward with answers to some questions that have been put forward by the members in previous posts before we take forward this game of assumptions and blame.
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Old 23rd October 2016, 11:23   #68
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Default re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

My former neighbour had his Vernas turbo gone kaput at 88000 kms when he was returning from Mangalore to Bangalore on the Hassan Bengaluru highway. Everything was fine and he was enjoying the car at around 110kmph, when there was sudden loss of power and the car left a huge cloud of white smoke behind it. Until then, all was fine according to him.

It could be the case with your car as well, maybe it was taken out for a high speed run and this coupled with the drive on the ring road made the turbo conk out. Like others say, it was a case of co-incidence. Firstly, at 118k kms on the odo, you cannot call the turbo to be working perfectly fine. The NEXA guy might have aggravated the issue by driving hard.

Coming to my experience with these so called expert valuers, prior to purchasing my Celerio, when they were evaluating my WagonR, it was not taken out for a test drive nor revved hard. Rather they carefully checked the engine for noises during idle, AC compressor, oil dipstick, coolant and so and he just inched the car forward to check the clutch. If someone wants to take a rash test drive, then he is a jugaad evaluator not an expert of any sort. By driving like a mad man, they are just testing the endurance of the car and not its condition. That said, its completely okay to go for a slightly hard drive once everything else looks perfect.

In such a situation, even if this issue is resolved by the NEXA guys by fixing your car, its only due to goodwill and like others say, its difficult to hold them accountable. Hence, if they offer a settlement, go for whatever is possible, and maybe not expect a brand new turbo from the Hyundai ASC.

Coming to the repair, its very much possible. My neighbour got it refurbished by replacing the bearings and oil seals and the amount of soot that came out in that process was just too much. However, after repair, it worked like new. Hence, you may consider repairing the turbo since a new turbo will blow your pocket by a considerable amount.
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Old 23rd October 2016, 12:47   #69
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Default Re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post

He is not worth being employed at any dealership, to figure out a car if he needed to do that like an excited new car buyer, god help that dealer.
What's wrong even if he revved the car? Rev Limiters are built for a reason, someone driving a Hyundai Verna (the version he has) would easily be touching nearby the rev limiter if he pushes it pedal to the metal say on a Yamuna or a Mumbai Pune Expressway and if he keeps at it, for a very long time it would stay at higher rpms too, cars are designed for stuff like that.

My Swift Diesel has run more than his Verna, goes 4000 rpm plus multiple times a day everyday, on long 1000 km trips, many a times remains at high rpms for hours in the entire day, if this breaks something in the car, it was on its way out anyway.

When I would buy a used car, I would take it for a quick high speed blip on the highway to see if everything is in order upto its limits because someday or the other, it would reach a higher RPM even for a sedate driver and if it does not hold up there, something is wrong with the buy.

The dealership guy has done no wrong in taking the car to higher rpms ( if he did actually do that, which we don't know yet), yes they could offered to tow the car to a service station, but if you start with demanding its their fault right from the word go, then I am sorry to say, they would start getting defensive too.
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Old 23rd October 2016, 13:38   #70
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Default Re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

Agree with most here that it will be unfair to blame Nexa and it's people for the blown turbo or whatever, however who is liable to pay when you are say at a store and you drop and break something that you were handling. I don't think I can get away if I break one glass of say a set of 6, while handing these at an expensive crystal show room. Most of these stores have a nice clear cheesy sign everywhere like "nice to see good to hold. If u break consider it sold" or something like that.

The analogy may be incorrect in context to a blown turbo, but I hope one understands what it am getting it. I guess an undertaking or a signed agreement needs to be there whenever we hand over anything to someone else to handle or otherwise one has to accept the risk of any untoward incident and move one without expecting a compensation. Nexa being such a big operator ought to have some kind of a protection exactly for such kind of incidents. Any smart Alec could take a car with a problem and then squarely blame the evaluator for the problem after the test drive.
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Old 23rd October 2016, 13:56   #71
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Default Re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

Just assuming we borrow our good friend's car for a small 5 km trip, and God forbid, the turbo fails, or something else happens to the car - not because of me mishandling, but just because of my bad timing, my friend cannot expect a repair from my side right? Unless he has proof from a dashcam, that shows me mis-handling the car.

I agree that the case would be different if the evaluator had hit a lamp post and had returned the car with a big damages.
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Old 23rd October 2016, 15:36   #72
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Default Re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

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Originally Posted by SPARKled View Post
I guess an undertaking or a signed agreement needs to be there whenever we hand over anything to someone else to handle or otherwise one has to accept the risk of any untoward incident and move one without expecting a compensation.
Well it is not always that simple. If for instance, I am on assessing your car to buy, and you ask me to sign something on those lines, I will not be comfortable. Not because I intend to damage your car but because I would not trust your intentions. Who knows if there is some major component failure in your car which you know off and will try to pass it on to me in the disguise of me having signed up for a TD. Of course you as a buyer are well within your rights to demand such a contract and I can only say that in such a case you might find it very hard to find a buyer.

Also all dealerships do have something similar when they offer you a TD of their new cars. They always ask you to give them your DL and sign a form saying you will be responsible for any untoward incident. I do not know if that will hold up in court at the time of an actual incident.
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Old 23rd October 2016, 16:20   #73
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Default Re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

I had a similar experience when I tried to sell my father's car after he passed away.

The bumper was damaged a bit and I wanted to get it replaced at the showroom by claiming insurance. The showroom folks told me that it would be difficult since the car is in my deceased father's name and claiming would be a bit of a trouble. Long story short I spent money from pocket and got it done at a local garage.

When I put up the car for sale on OLX/quicker and all those sites, I got calls from brokers who wanted to TD the cars. Most of them were uneducated sods who run chop shops and wanted to bargain over the phone. I discouraged anyone from "inspecting" the car who I felt would abuse.

Anyone who I felt were genuine were invited to TD the car at a near by residential locality under my supervision in the passenger seat.

One fine day, I got a call from quicker, the guy said he wanted to "evaluate" my car and was interested in seeing. Initially I declined, but the guy told me that "quicker inspected " cars would get much better responses and good resale value.

The guy who came to TD the car posed as though he know everything about the car. He took some snaps of the car in weird angles. He started the car (toyota innova ) and kept revving the engine. I asked him to stop and asked him what he was doing. He gave me some of his gyan and was complete BS. I gave him a piece of my mind and sent him packing.

That day onward, I stopped entertaining all calls who were interested in inspecting and promised better resale values.
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Old 23rd October 2016, 16:40   #74
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Update: Met with the CEO of TR Sawhney Motors (Owners of the Nexa showroom in question). He was incredibly polite and we just might have a solution in sight.

Thanks for all your support guys!. Appreciate each and everyone who came forward to guide / advice me.

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Originally Posted by aravind.anand View Post
Just assuming we borrow our good friend's car for a small 5 km trip, and God forbid, the turbo fails, or something else happens to the car - not because of me mishandling, but just because of my bad timing, my friend cannot expect a repair from my side right? Unless he has proof from a dashcam, that shows me mis-handling the car.

I agree that the case would be different if the evaluator had hit a lamp post and had returned the car with a big damages.
Sir, with all due respect, some people borrow a car and make sure they top up the tank while returning it. I believe in that chain of thought. An object, when in your possession, becomes your responsibility. I would absolutely have the person's car repaired if it were in my possession when it went bust.

Basic decency.

Last edited by GTO : 23rd October 2016 at 18:18. Reason: Merging back to back posts
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Old 23rd October 2016, 19:19   #75
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Default Re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

The other side of the story has not been heard of as pointed by many people.

I have worked in the past as a used car evaluator and I can probably give you some part of the other side story with my experience in that job.

The work of a used car evaluator is very difficult and risky. You don't have to sell something standard but buy things. Every used car is different from the other.

When you give your well run car for service at a service centre, they take atleast 2-3 hours and opening the car parts to arrive at the repair estimate. They have support of spare parts department to tell exact price of spare parts and there is support of others like technicians, floor supervisors, testers, works managers, other Service Advisors etc. Then too at times you all would have noticed that the final bill comes way more than the estimate.

A used car evaluator has none of above support and got hardly 15 minutes to check the car and arrive at the estimate. At times there is so much of traffic that you could hardly take the car in third gear while testing. Plus a service centre just services one brand of cars. Used car evaluator has to evaluate cars of all brands. It requires a very high level of skill and guess work.

The repair estimate has to be accurate. You over estimate and you lose the deal as the customer would sell it somewhere else. You under estimate and you would have a car with a high repair cost and will not sell easily at even cost price. Then a car which doesn't sell blocks the working capital as well. I know of dealerships who make the evaluator pay for the losses made on such cars.

Also, paperwork has to be checked thoroughly (stolen cars, hypothecation not removed from RC, insurance comprehensive but very low IDV). Tampered odometers are seen everyday by evaluators. I have seen good looking decent customers bringing cars with tampered odometers. (You can't even say that to them on their face as they are customers). Cars with major accident and structural damages, colour of one panel not matching with the other, flooded cars, rusted cars, etc. etc. All these things have to be checked thoroughly along with mechanical or physical condition of the car. You could lose your job or be called corrupt if you miss out on even one of the above in a car and it lands up with you.

With so much competition and pressure from new car sales team, one has to buy cars at a price where the margins would be very low. No problem with that. I would say more power to the customers!

At times it is noticed that the car when given after deal is finalised is not in the same condition as it was when evaluated. Some more dents or scratches are seen. Some more rattling. You don't argue with the customer and accept the car. Some customers also remove accessories like music system, rear parking sensors (imagine getting a car with holes on bumpers, you would have to put new sensors as no customer would buy it like that) etc, even after committing that they would not remove any accessory. At times they ask you to pick the car from their home or office and the car has not even a drop of fuel inside.

Some customers make you run for the paperwork like anything. You cannot sell a car hypothecated to bank, so from the price of car agreed on, you pay the bank the remaining amount of loan and rest to the customer. Obviously, visiting bank and standing in line to close the loan is to be done by you. Form 35 and NOC is received at the customers place. Some customers forget about it. Don't even inform when it comes to them. Some customers stop responding to your calls after selling the car to you. You cannot sell the car without removing hypothecation and have to be at their mercy to receive the Form 35 and NOC. A necessary practice is to hold some amount of money say 10k-20k and give it to customer only after he gives the Form 35 and NOC from bank. However, at times to close the deal you have to take that risk as customer becomes adamant. Some don't care for the 10k-20k and stop responding anyway.

I have known of cases where some customers had taken top up loan on the car loan and sold the car saying there is only normal car loan going on. The bank refuses to give form 35 and NOC. You have to be at mercy of the customer and run around him.

Some customers after selling the car cancel the insurance and take the refund without informing you. Imagine if such a car meets accident or is stolen!

Coming back to this case. 60,000 km is a mental block in mind of used car buyers in India. Any car run more than that is difficult to sell. 1 lakh km is another barrier. Still more difficult to sell such cars. If a car is having a high mileage on odometer, it has to be checked more thoroughly by the evaluator. The chances of things failing is pretty high at this mileage. Engine and related components have to be checked very thoroughly as there can be an engine overhaul anytime after 1 lakh kms even for a well maintained car. Very few car OEMs give warranty of cars run beyond 1 lakh km. A diesel or CNG/LPG car (this reminds me of the rounds of RTO which was outside the city limits I had to do when a customer sold me a CNG car without endorsement on RC book!) needs more thorough check up. You need to revv the engine hard to see whether there is life in the engine or everything is working properly. Even if we theoretically assume that the evaluator here revved the engine to its limit continuously for 15 minutes and the turbo went bust, it would have still happened if customer had not given the car for evaluation maybe within 1000kms at max. Just imagine, if the evaluator had not revved the engine and bought the car only to see the turbo failing after a short while! The dealership would have made him pay from his pocket most probably.

I was pained to see someone accusing people working at dealerships as "miserable louts" and what not. Agreed, some bad apples are there. They are there in every industry and such people should be taught a lesson. More than 2 lakh cars are sold every month in India. If everyone working in dealerships were "miserable louts", this industry would have collapsed. These are very hard working people who put very high working hours and work under high stress and pressure. They never get to even celebrate festivals with their family as they have to serve customers. While everyone of us have long holidays for Diwali, these folks work overtime for customers.

Another thing. I believe most of the people in this world are good. This was taught to me by my Manager while I was working as a used car evaluator. He was correct. Most of my customers were very friendly and good natured people. Very cooperative and even ignoring your small mistakes at times. The above things are written about a very low minority of customer, but if you are not careful you would be in big trouble and lose your job and credibility.

Sorry for the long post but I thought it was necessary. I hope the gentleman here gets a solution to his problems.
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