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Old 24th October 2016, 07:41   #76
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Default Re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

^^Nice post fazayal. Very illuminating.

I totally agree that when you have someone else's car in your possession you assume responsibility for it. If OP' s car had returned from the TD with a bumper dangling or the side smashed in, it would be an open and shut case. Problem is that in this case it's a blown turbo.

Can you really blow a turbo by revving the engine on a 15 min drive in the city? I leave it to the experts to decide but to me it sounds unlikely.

A close friend had borrowed my Swift for 6 months in between work assignments overseas. He insisted on paying for routine service and some bodywork that was damaged while he had it. I drew the line at some suspension parts that needed replacement. He had barely driven 5000 km out of 60000+ and it simply wasn't fair to blame him for that.

It's good that Nexa is at least talking to OP and they seem to be heading for a mutually acceptable settlement.
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Old 24th October 2016, 07:51   #77
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Default Re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

Fazayal bhai, an off topic remark but I must say your detailed post above brings to light a much neglected part of the auto industry. As buyers and sellers we deal with these people every time, people who are rushing from one corner of the city to another and trying to assess something that is more on the trust built with the car and the seller in 15 minutes than an objective assessment of what works and what doesn't.

Thank you for revealing this side, I am sure it will change the perspective of many people when talking to an evaluator.
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Old 24th October 2016, 11:13   #78
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Default Re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjatalli View Post
While your devil's advocate role might raise a lot of valid points, let me remind you the OP isn't looking for an apology - he wants a complete repair done of the car by Maruti/Nexa and that seems to be the only purpose of this thread.
Well i did not support this right?

Quote:
Yes, clearly Nexa is at fault. Or atleast the associate/division responsible for the resale evaluation.

But there are far too many questionable points on the car's condition, what exactly is the damage at hand, how much of it is attributable to the 15 mins of "testing" and how much of is it to prior usage.
Yes that is why an appropriate response from their side would have kept things under control. No one seems to be debating on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vibbs View Post
I really think we all are debating based on a lot of assumptions. We don't even know what has happened, and clearly need more inputs to decidedly say what has happened. I believe the OP needs to come forward with answers to some questions that have been put forward by the members in previous posts before we take forward this game of assumptions and blame.
I have been prompting to stay away from technical and assumption based debate, if you refer to my earlier post my gripe is with regards to the way in which the whole situation was responded by Nexa. They pride on being premium experience shop of maruti afterall.

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
The dealership guy has done no wrong in taking the car to higher rpms ( if he did actually do that, which we don't know yet), yes they could offered to tow the car to a service station, but if you start with demanding its their fault right from the word go, then I am sorry to say, they would start getting defensive too.
I have seen evaluation process of Maruti used car division, they do not do any such thing. They have a very detailed check list that they go through. Again let us leave the technical bit, what failed and how. What do you do in such a situation, do you wash your hands off or get into a discussion to resolve? Which does not mean compromise and owning the whole bill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aravind.anand View Post
Just assuming we borrow our good friend's car for a small 5 km trip, and God forbid, the turbo fails, or something else happens to the car - not because of me mishandling, but just because of my bad timing, my friend cannot expect a repair from my side right?
I would "offer" to repair since there is something called as trust and faith in a relationship termed as friendship. Again Nexa is not a customers friends, they are a premium service provider selling certain products from Maruti.

Quote:
Originally Posted by himalyan_ice View Post
Update: Met with the CEO of TR Sawhney Motors (Owners of the Nexa showroom in question). He was incredibly polite and we just might have a solution in sight.
This is a great move from Nexa, hope this is resolved in a decent manner!
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Old 24th October 2016, 11:53   #79
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Default Re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

A lot of people have put very valid points regarding why the dealership is not at fault.

Let me ask a hypothetical question.

If you go to a maruti true value showroom, and proceed to rip a used car for sale there in the manner that the used car valuator did (and with the same purpose in mind - to ascertain that the car is not on its last legs), and then the same thing happens - the turbo blows

Would you not be held responsible for the damage to the car? Would the dealership honor any of these arguments being made in favour of them, when they are at the receiving end of such a situation? How quickly would it end up degenerating into a "you broke it - you buy it" situation, and at a price decided by the dealer?

Last edited by greenhorn : 24th October 2016 at 11:54.
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Old 24th October 2016, 12:34   #80
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Default Re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

Quote:
Originally Posted by himalyan_ice View Post
Update: Met with the CEO of TR Sawhney Motors (Owners of the Nexa showroom in question). He was incredibly polite and we just might have a solution in sight.

Thanks for all your support guys!. Appreciate each and everyone who came forward to guide / advice me.

Hello,
While we have a long debate on the ethical bits, I am more curious on the actual technical problem.
Did you find out why the smoke+oil issue happened?
Could you please post a few detailed pics of your engine bay ?

ALL,
From my experience with a CRDI diesel mill, it generally smokes due to unburnt fuel i.e. if the engine is getting less air.
The common fix was pulling the air filter out and cleaning it, sometimes replacing it.
Oil in the exhaust also means that engine oil was either reaching the cylinder or leaking from the turbo.

So, here's my dumb question to the forum here:
If the dipstick/oil cap is not replaced properly, the engine would obviously throw up oil inside, however, also due to the pressure difference caused by the open gap in the engine bay, is it possible for the oil to get into the cylinder and the exhaust, thus preventing the diesel from burning properly and causing the smoke??

Any other possibilities?
What is the diagnosis of the problem?
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Old 24th October 2016, 12:39   #81
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Default Re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

Quote:
Originally Posted by aqualeo2040 View Post
So, here's my dumb question to the forum here:
If the dipstick/oil cap is not replaced properly, the engine would obviously throw up oil inside, however, also due to the pressure difference caused by the open gap in the engine bay, is it possible for the oil to get into the cylinder and the exhaust, thus preventing the diesel from burning properly and causing the smoke??

Any other possibilities?
What is the diagnosis of the problem?


The engine cylinder opens only to fuel and air intake system, how will a leaky filler cap contaminate that? Leak can happen if the rings are worn and oil from the crank case is being sucked into the cylinder Or if there is a leak in turbo systems and oil gets pushed in through the intake side. Having a leak at filler or dip stick will have some oil smear around that area.
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Old 24th October 2016, 12:55   #82
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Default Re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
A lot of people have put very valid points regarding why the dealership is not at fault.

Let me ask a hypothetical question.

If you go to a maruti true value showroom, and proceed to rip a used car for sale there in the manner that the used car valuator did (and with the same purpose in mind - to ascertain that the car is not on its last legs), and then the same thing happens - the turbo blows

Would you not be held responsible for the damage to the car? Would the dealership honor any of these arguments being made in favour of them, when they are at the receiving end of such a situation? How quickly would it end up degenerating into a "you broke it - you buy it" situation, and at a price decided by the dealer?
Absolutely not - if they care about their reputation.

Still let's hypothetically assume that there exists such dealers.

So does that mean we should also support such unreasonable behaviour of customers just because dealers are unreasonable? It is like saying "why should we follow traffic rules when the cops themselves ride on triple seat". Well we follow rules because we want to and because that it the right thing to do.

And that is why most of the posts here are not in support of Nexa being held responsible.
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Old 24th October 2016, 13:33   #83
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Default Re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

After reading all these posts, I keep coming to one question in my mind. Turbo equipped cars or not: If one cannot plug a computer module to read diagnostics, is it actually necessary to REV the engine to super high numbers that too for a long periods. What does it actually do. Yes, it stresses the engine, but is that a true evaluation..? Just asking, not stating..!

It is like saying:

Scale limits of machine operation: 1 ------> 6
Normal operation: 1 -----> 3

MTBF: 1000 cycles.
Current Life completed: 600 cycles.

How will taking the machine to a scale of (6--max out), insure that it will suffice 400 more cycles (at a minimum) on a stress scale of 1 ---> 3. Or by doing this, the tester is insuring that if a mechanical synaptic snap is possible it will occur, and a fault line will be exposed. If before this failure, a point can be reached (or detected), and the fault, not let incurred, then the machine failed the test. And the fault never happened. Is this pivot possible..?

By revving at red line, for prolonged periods, is not a fault to be insured, which cannot be fixed -- per say. So is the NEXA tester incorrect or right in his methodology...? I am confused. You are basically breaking something (or bringing it to a break point), to check how sturdy it is. Can one halt at the exact point before the break, and say: I reached there..almost. That vanishing point. Its, weird, abstract..!
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Old 24th October 2016, 13:38   #84
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Default Re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post

The engine cylinder opens only to fuel and air intake system, how will a leaky filler cap contaminate that? Leak can happen if the rings are worn and oil from the crank case is being sucked into the cylinder Or if there is a leak in turbo systems and oil gets pushed in through the intake side. Having a leak at filler or dip stick will have some oil smear around that area.
Jaggu, thanks for the technical insight.

Not sure why this is OT while we are trying to help the OP with his problem. While we are already pondering on the malpractice by the Nexa showroom, as a technical forum, we also need to find the technical problem, so that, if it is something really obvious, the rest of us know what to look out for after such incidents.

The question is, what can a technician do within a test drive or before to mess a car up that bad.

My understanding is that when oil gets burnt, it emits white smoke rather than black. Although, I agree, black smoke from a diesel engine generally indicates a blown engine. However, the OP hasn't mentioned Check Engine Light.
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Old 24th October 2016, 13:53   #85
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Default Re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

6 pages, and i am still searching for -

What is the exact issue to cause black smoke etc ?

AND

Resolution provided by NEXA ?
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Old 24th October 2016, 14:00   #86
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Default Re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

Quote:
Originally Posted by aqualeo2040 View Post
Not sure why this is OT while we are trying to help the OP with his problem. While we are already pondering on the malpractice by the Nexa showroom, as a technical forum, we also need to find the technical problem, so that, if it is something really obvious, the rest of us know what to look out for after such incidents.
This is a dealership thread, not a technical thread . Maybe the face of the off topic smilies should be little more friendly.

Quote:
The question is, what can a technician do within a test drive or before to mess a car up that bad.
Till an update on the diagnosis of the actual problem is posted, it would be hit or a miss.

Quote:
My understanding is that when oil gets burnt, it emits white smoke rather than black. Although, I agree, black smoke from a diesel engine generally indicates a blown engine. However, the OP hasn't mentioned Check Engine Light.
If the oil amount is to the extent that engine can burn it, it will be white. Beyond which it will be just dark oil coming out. Who knows it might be coolant also being thrown out and the exhaust soot making it look black. In short let us wait for further updates before we jump into technical analysis of the situation
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Old 24th October 2016, 18:20   #87
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Default Re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

I am still looking for the exact issue and it is 404:Reason not found. Myself and a lot of other members have asked the OP some questions. Unfortunately, the OP who has posted multiple times after that has chosen not to answer those.

1. Has someone actually diagnosed the issue? Is it turbo failure or something else?
2. Was the car modded? If Yes, what were the mods? If No, why was the car serviced in Autopsyche and not Hyundai service centers?

Unless we get an answer to these, I am not sure how much we are missing in the whole discussion. To me, for the discussion to make full sense and take the right direction, we need the OP to answer these vital questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
If you go to a maruti true value showroom, and proceed to rip a used car for sale there in the manner that the used car valuator did (and with the same purpose in mind - to ascertain that the car is not on its last legs), and then the same thing happens - the turbo blows

Would you not be held responsible for the damage to the car? Would the dealership honor any of these arguments being made in favour of them, when they are at the receiving end of such a situation? How quickly would it end up degenerating into a "you broke it - you buy it" situation, and at a price decided by the dealer?
Firstly, Maruti True Value guys will not let a customer drive the car alone. There will be a technician accompanying the customer. If the technician feels the customer is driving in an inappropriate manner, he has all the rights to stop the customer and take control of the vehicle - this is something the OP missed - as he gave the car to the evaluator and he has no clue on how the car was driven. If the car breaks down even while driving in a manner approved by the accompanying technician, how can and will the customer be held responsible? It is the evaluator who will be on fire for approving a vehicle which was ready to break down.

Another situation discussed in this thread itself is will the customer be asked to pay if a test drive vehicle breaks down or gets involved in an accident in between a test drive? The insurance will come into picture and things will go as per the law of the land. The driver of the car might be booked for rash / irresponsible driving but I dont think the showroom will ask the customer to pay for the repairs - Highly unlikely.
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Old 25th October 2016, 12:47   #88
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Default Re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

This is one of those dead end threads where the OP rants about unscrupulous practices and then somehow forgets that this thread exists. If I can remember, there was a similar discussion about a Ford EcoSport which had its Front-Left wheel ripped apart and a "torn" rim and it was claimed that there was a deign fault from Ford's side and later it turned out to be a case of an accident/bad driving/hitting a culvert at high speed.

Without knowing the root cause, comments will just be speculations and until then, I'd like to wait and watch if the OP will ever return to update this thread.

There are a lot of grey areas in the used car segment and personally, I'd be sitting in the car if I handed the keys over to a potential buyer and stop them from goofing around if I found them mis-handling it. A dashcam would also help a lot in such cases, specifically ones that overlay OBD info within the video. Data like "boost", "vacuum", engine RPM, speed, etc can be clearly recorded and used a proof in case of misuse. How much help this video could potentially be - that is again a debatable story!
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Old 25th October 2016, 14:56   #89
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Default Re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

Rash and ignorant driving causing the turbo to fail? That would be a first for the law. I don't think a law even exists to prevent such acts, or recognize such acts as a crime.
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Old 25th October 2016, 15:46   #90
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Default Re: Smoke & oil from tailpipe after Nexa showroom test-drives my Verna

Here's how I see it. The easiest way to check if the airbags work is to crash a car head on. Does not mean that you should do that. Similarly I bet there are better and easier ways of checking the condition of the car instead of abusing it.

One thing everyone in this thread has agreed that the Evaluator probably drove the car in a rash way or pushed it to its limit. I see a problem right here. No one here is denying that which means we know that they do this to our cars and we are OK with it?

We all love our cars and if I was in that situation, I would be furious as well. I don't understand the point of pushing a machine to breaking point to test its reliability. We have multiple threads on here tell us what we MUST NOT do with a new car and one of them is unnecessarily rev-ving it to the red line. How is this not OK to do on a new car but OK and a normal practice on a 1L km car evaluation. Canít an Authorized Mechanic also tell you what is wrong with a vehicle and the evaluator just decide what would be the buying cost minus repairs and other things?

We have extensively discussed how the Owner was at fault in the thread. But I believe both are at fault here and I would not expect Nexa to pay up for a new turbo. There however needs to be some amount of blame taken by them. The Evaluator also should have insisted that owner come along on the test drive. The showroom guys also could have suggested the same to the owner. That would have been the decent thing to do. The other decent thing to do would be to assume part responsibility that the failure happened on their watch. If there was indeed something wrong with the turbo in the first place, a genuine evaluator would have noticed it at the start itself and not returned after a complete TD and parked the car some distance away as suggested in the initial post.


I saw a different side of some of the members on this forum in this thread. The aggression, accusations and negative remarks seemed unwarranted. The guy was just looking for help and suggestions.
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