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Old 23rd August 2008, 06:44   #211
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Originally Posted by Brabus E V12 View Post
...few months ago they even had some employee unrest in Haryana...
That was Honda Scooters BTW

While all of us can advise I think OP is somewhere hesitating to take firm steps. As I posted a while back he needs to move his @$$ before it gets legally untenable because of delay.
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Old 23rd August 2008, 14:18   #212
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Originally Posted by ankit.jhamb View Post
Sir,i request you to please read the post carefully. the car has 6 defects(body paint).checking has been done carefully (from last 2months).honda has sold a defective car which can be clearly seen from the pictures in the thread.

We would like to know what kind of defamation suit can be filed?i think if you are with a dealer you will be able to explain the above point.
Hi Ankit


On legal matters , all auto or any company of matter prefer to settle the issue out of court if the facts provided the said claims are justified . As matter is subjudice legal consulting is required ,but freedom of expression is our rights and thats why blogs are for.

Company recall cars in case of any defects identified by manufacturer like SRS, ABS ,Engine,suspension or electric related defects parts are replaced cost is borne by the company .

Company replaces defective parts of the car if found defective by the customer on bringing to notice dealer send the intimation ,verified & approved fied by the manufacturer dealer replaces the part as it covered under warranty of the car .

Feb manufactured car delivered till dec 2008 do not require any intimation to customer as RTO rules , they are aware production take place N th month and parts procured and assembled in N-1,N-2 N-6 .On assembling the engine and installtion VIN No are stamped with built date as per excise rules Assembly line production is scheduled in batches with variant ,trim level ,type.so its possible the car get sold in any period from feb to dec after months of production.2007 car sold at discount but with an intimation to customer ,at price less than listed price only.

With regards to paint defects its always redone to the satisfaction of the customers .Transit damages car are auctioned by the transit insurer ,highest bidder take the salvage ,repaired and sold in used car market. dealer if purchased can issue only second sale invoice as insurer has sold to dealer first invoice ,then dealer sells to end user.

In this case ,the customer will get the replacement plus whatever claims etc ,he sues if this act is done by the dealer. Unless its proved ,its assumptions not real facts which the legal system would accept. If this proved by the dealer at court he hasnt delivered transit damage car ,he wins ,then defamation case can be filed for the reputation ,expenses incurred for building the name in the market .

Japanese co are clearly sold on the products reliability and quality being a reputed manufacturer they would not do so neither the dealer for a couple of lacs .

thanks on welcoming me on board ,

Any time i prefer Japanese car especially the VTEC engines its 100% performance .
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Old 23rd August 2008, 16:25   #213
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Originally Posted by kaizen View Post
Company replaces defective parts of the car if found defective by the customer on bringing to notice dealer send the intimation ,verified & approved fied by the manufacturer dealer replaces the part as it covered under warranty of the car .
It is not just "defect", as in a tyre with a crack, or a block with a leak. This is about body panels with dents. Did you notice the plural?

Those are damages. Like a broken glass. You know the difference between a broken glass, and a glass with a rough edge coz. the blow moulding process was not perfect?

Quote:
Feb manufactured car delivered till dec 2008 do not require any intimation to customer as RTO rules ,
1.

Did you try to understand what jmathew's complaint is about? Please go through the initial posts again. It is not about RTO rules.

jmathew's complaint is about consumer's rights. About getting a defect free product. And the consumer's right to get accurate information and a defect free product / service from the producer / dealer / service provider.

I appreciate your efforts in saving jmathew from being victimised further.

Quote:
they are aware production take place N th month and parts procured and assembled in N-1,N-2 N-6 .On assembling the engine and installtion VIN No are stamped with built date as per excise rules Assembly line production is scheduled in batches with variant ,trim level ,type.so its possible the car get sold in any period from feb to dec after months of production.2007 car sold at discount but with an intimation to customer ,at price less than listed price only.
Thanks for the valuable info. Obviously you know how Honda schedules their manufacturing process.

But how is this information relevant here?

Quote:
With regards to paint defects its always redone to the satisfaction of the customers .
The customer is not satisfied. Honda and their dealer says that these are not defects. So as a bunch of consumers, we are brainstorming about how these defects happened. That is what all these pages are about.

Quote:
Transit damages car are auctioned by the transit insurer ,highest bidder take the salvage ,repaired and sold in used car market. dealer if purchased can issue only second sale invoice as insurer has sold to dealer first invoice ,then dealer sells to end user.
1. Can you show at least one car which has been registered like this?

2. Please refer to the previous quote. This is what you said:-

Quote:
With regards to paint defects its always redone to the satisfaction of the customers .
If all transist damaged cars are sold off, why should the company redo the paint damage? Or is it that paint damages occur only in factory, and factory damaged cars are not sold by the insurance?

Or is it that this particular was neither factory damage, nor transist damage? (so damage in storage?)

Or did jmathew deliberately damaged his car to defame them? (Remember, we are brainstorming, so all possibilities are considered here.)

We, as a group of consumers, who care for our cars, and therefore know the pain when we find the brand new car we paid through our noses for is severely damaged, have narrowed down the possibility for the damages here to just these cases.

1. Damage in transist.
2. Damage in storage.
3. Damage during demonstrations.

If we knew when the car was despatched from factory was very close (and therefore the car was not with dealer for a long time), we could have ruled out damage in storage, and damage in demonstration / desplay drives. But unfortunately, the manufacturer and dealer have no details of vehicle's manufacturing history, inspite of excise rules MANDATING maintenance of such records. (You were the first to qutoe the excise rules). In fact, Honda has admitted to breaking the excise rules by admitting that they have no records of when the vehicle was despatched from the factory.

Quote:
In this case ,the customer will get the replacement plus whatever claims etc ,he sues if this act is done by the dealer. Unless its proved ,its assumptions not real facts which the legal system would accept. If this proved by the dealer at court he hasnt delivered transit damage car ,he wins ,then defamation case can be filed for the reputation ,expenses incurred for building the name in the market .
No defamation case is maintainable simply for filing a complaint in a court of law.

Quote:
Japanese co are clearly sold on the products reliability and quality being a reputed manufacturer they would not do so neither the dealer for a couple of lacs .
The problem is, they have done the unthinkable. Most of us here are surprised. That is why this thread grew by 5 pages within 24 hours of first post. You may be a good company. You may have a good reputation. You may have best practises in place. But, you have no records of when a car was despatched from the factory. Sorrry. That is not good management or distribution or quality control or customer relationship or inventory management or sales or whatever.

Quote:
Any time i prefer Japanese car especially the VTEC engines its 100% performance .
Quality of engines is not in question here? is it? Nobody has complaints about mechanical performance of the car. Did I miss anything here?

At the end, seems are going to have 3, not just 2 suits.

1. By jmathew against the dealer and Honda.
2. By dealer and Honda against jmathew for defamation.
3. By excise department for not maintaining records of manufacturing and despatch data.

;-P

The first two are optional. The 3 parties (buyer, Honda and dealer) still have time to settle the matter between themselves.

But the prosecution against Honda for breaking the excise rules cannot be compromised. My sympathies.

Last edited by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR : 23rd August 2008 at 16:29. Reason: Edited last few lines for clarity
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Old 23rd August 2008, 23:42   #214
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thanks for the reply,my replies in bold

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaizen View Post
Hi Ankit


On legal matters , all auto or any company of matter prefer to settle the issue out of court if the facts provided the said claims are justified .
in this case,there are 6 areas where the body paint is not matching.the company can paint the area as compensation as out of court settlement free of cost.

Company recall cars in case of any defects identified by manufacturer like SRS, ABS ,Engine,suspension or electric related defects parts are replaced cost is borne by the company .

this is something that they will replace/repair if found defective,Remember a recent case where honda was asked to repair the defective A/C and pay 1 lakh as damages(for CR-V)


Feb manufactured car delivered till dec 2008 do not require any intimation to customer as RTO rules , they are aware production take place N th month and parts procured and assembled in N-1,N-2 N-6 .On assembling the engine and installtion VIN No are stamped with built date as per excise rules Assembly line production is scheduled in batches with variant ,trim level ,type.
did he pay for a feb manufactured vehicle?was he given any discount for buying a 4 month old vehicle?it was something which was not told to him before.i suspect this car could have been used a test drive vehicle for sometime,and then was delivered to him.

2007 car sold at discount but with an intimation to customer ,at price less than listed price only.
that is a common practice everywhere
With regards to paint defects its always redone to the satisfaction of the customers .exactly my point,should be repainted again,if it had 1-2 paint defectsTransit damages car are auctioned by the transit insurer ,highest bidder take the salvage ,repaired and sold in used car market. if it was a transit damage then the above mentioned procedure was not followed by the dealer

In this case ,the customer will get the replacement plus whatever claims etc ,he sues if this act is done by the dealer. Unless its proved ,its assumptions not real facts which the legal system would accept.
I read somewhere that media had covered this case,which i thing is a big proof of how dealer sold a defective car to unsuspecting customer.


Any time i prefer Japanese car especially the VTEC engines its 100% performance .
regarding the defamation suit,it is generally used by the dealer to see how the customer reacts to this situation.A defamation suit could have been filed when the customer did not have any proofs regarding the defects,in the above case photos,reciets of visit to service centre,job cards,+the reports in media and visits by honda officials who have admitted that there is paint defect in the car.

why should anybody after spending 13 lakhs,compromise with the paint quality of the car.if the paint would have been defective at1 place/area repaint as a solution would have worked.but since there are 6 areas,i dont think any owner would have liked to get his car repainted.

thanks and regards
Ankit.Jhamb

P.S:kaizen :are you in any way connected with honda?

Last edited by ankit.jhamb : 23rd August 2008 at 23:45.
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Old 23rd August 2008, 23:43   #215
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duplicate post deleted

Last edited by ankit.jhamb : 23rd August 2008 at 23:44. Reason: duplicate post deleted
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Old 24th August 2008, 00:20   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaizen View Post
On legal matters , all auto or any company of matter prefer to settle the issue out of court if the facts provided the said claims are justified .
My 2 cents.

I personally think that the management of Peninsular Honda / Honda themselves are being complete IDIOTS about this issue...

Why am I calling them IDIOTS? Let me justify myself.

If they completely fix mathews car totally and absolutely to his satisfaction, the maximum cost to the company will be within 1.5 lakhs... including panels/paint.

How to justify this cost?

Simple.
  • Most Team BHP users are automobile owners, hence future customers.
  • This thread has been viewed 26,425 times. So many prospective CUSTOMERS have already seem this thread. And they will remember it for quite a while.
Now what if 1% of these people change their mind while finalizing on their next car? Kindly equate the cost of lost sales to the company.

Fixing this issue will cost less than a 40 second ad on TV/Full page AD in a magazine, and will greatly raise/not lower the stature of Honda as a company in the eyes of many many people.

I personally feel, people at Honda are just lacking good business sense...

Last edited by AbhiJ : 24th August 2008 at 00:22.
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Old 24th August 2008, 01:28   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbhiJ View Post
My 2 cents.

I personally think that the management of Peninsular Honda / Honda themselves are being complete IDIOTS about this issue...
  • This thread has been viewed 26,425 times. So many prospective CUSTOMERS have already seem this thread. And they will remember it for quite a while.
Now what if 1% of these people change their mind while finalizing on their next car? Kindly equate the cost of lost sales to the company.

I personally feel, people at Honda are just lacking good business sense...
I completely agree to this particular view. Though I don't post often, I do read the threads. You are absolutely right in saying Honda is losing prospective buyers. I was looking to buy a Civic soon - but after reading JM's story, I am looking at other options (read it Toyota ). The more they delay the settlement to the owner's satisfaction, the greater will be the damage to the company's name as an owner friendly one.
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Old 24th August 2008, 02:31   #218
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@Kaizen, As you said you are with the dealer, so I assume that you are someway related to Peninsular Honda or HSCL. Anyway I appreciate your good intentions.
Could you please clarify that why would Honda file a defamation suit against me?
* For writing in Team-Bhp?
* For discussing this matter with my friends or relatives?
* For Bringing the attention of media about this case?
* Filing a false complaint in court againt honda for delivering a transit damage car?

If it is for the first three points, why should Honda wait till it wins in the court? They can do it now itself.

If it is for the fourth point, I nowhere mentioned that I got a transit damage car. How can any customer tell that the damages are due to transit unless it is told by the company. For an end-user what difference it will make, whether it is a manufacturing defect or damage in transit or damage in storage. Only I know is that I got a car which has manufacturing date stamped (according to you at the last point of assembly) four months before the delivery and the car has got defects.

I wonder is there any law in india which forbids Honda to deliver transit damage cars and still allows to sell car damaged by the dealer.

If this case is in the court, It is be only becasue of Honda or Dealer for the following reasons and they are only responsible for it.
1) Delivering the car which has got defects and the customer is not satifsfied with the solution.
2) Not given any satisfactory explanation for the cause of defects and the extend of the damage happened.
3) Failed to prove that the vehicle is sent from factory to dealership just befoer 5 days of delivery (As told by the dealer) and to prove that it is not improperly used by the dealer for any other purpose(as a test drive car/display car). Neither honda nor delaer
is not ready to disclose any documents which shows the vehicle history and the transit dates.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kaizen View Post
Japanese co are clearly sold on the products reliability and quality being a reputed manufacturer they would not do so neither the dealer for a couple of lacs.
Not sure what you are trying to convey here. Then what happend in my case? Or you mean that I am making a false claim against Honda and Dealer. If it is a mistake from their side, why dont they accept it and and correct it. They are taking customers for granted and asking me to accept what they offer and not willing to give any proof for the quality of the car.

Manager of Honda told me that I dont need any proof because the car is under warrenty. I makes me to think that Honda has a quality policy "to deliver defective cars and providing warranty to to customer".
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Old 24th August 2008, 03:29   #219
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Originally Posted by kaizen View Post
Have the facts checked thoroughly before hand ,as the allegation proved wrong will call for defamation suit against you by the honda.


i am with the dealer,in such things as legal suit ,the errors which proceed from a spirit of benevolence are the worst.

may good winds go with you.
Just want to ask you 1 thing.

Do you work/represent the dealer in question in this thread?
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Old 24th August 2008, 04:12   #220
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Originally Posted by Gregory View Post
Just want to ask you 1 thing.

Do you work/represent the dealer in question in this thread?
Judging by the veiled threat in his post and his justification of all practices at Honda, he does seem to be from the other side of the fence(Honda or dealer). One wishes that the court gives Honda a piece of their mind for doing this to a customer.

I myself have decided not to buy a Honda car in India, until they change their arrogant behavior and acknowledge the fact that customer is KING ! ALWAYS !! (I have based my decision on the threads on t-BHP from various Honda owners).
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Old 24th August 2008, 04:44   #221
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Originally Posted by Gregory View Post
Just want to ask you 1 thing.

Do you work/represent the dealer in question in this thread?
I was about to ask that - he definitely seems to be related to either the dealer or to Honda.
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Old 24th August 2008, 13:10   #222
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Originally Posted by kaizen View Post
In this case ,the customer will get the replacement plus whatever claims etc ,he sues if this act is done by the dealer. Unless its proved ,its assumptions not real facts which the legal system would accept. If this proved by the dealer at court he hasnt delivered transit damage car ,he wins ,then defamation case can be filed for the reputation ,expenses incurred for building the name in the market .
Are you working for dealer or for Honda directly ? After reading the above statements from you, I get the perception that you do. If that is indeed the case, please state that clearly.

I personally believe that injustice has been done to jmathew and I sincerely hope that Honda wakes up and does something about it. I own two Honda cars and I blindly trusted them but now I don't anymore.
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Old 24th August 2008, 13:59   #223
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Its for sure that JMathew should not accept any replacement of parts or get it repainted, but should only accept a replacement of the complete car itself.

After paying hard earned 12 lakhs why should a consumer settle for repaint or replacement of parts. The complete car should be replaced with a new one, period.

Last edited by tush : 24th August 2008 at 14:19.
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Old 24th August 2008, 14:27   #224
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Originally Posted by kaizen View Post
Hi Ankit

Japanese co are clearly sold on the products reliability and quality being a reputed manufacturer they would not do so neither the dealer for a couple of lacs .

thanks on welcoming me on board ,

Any time i prefer Japanese car especially the VTEC engines its 100% performance .
Sir, if a certain car has worked for you doesn't mean it works for everyone. 100% performance? Please read the post Civic Manufacturing defects and you may see what I am trying to say here. After reading it and before you say that they have been fixing all the issues when reported, please understand that a consumer does not spend Rs 13 LACKS to take his car to Service Station every month. As a matter of fact, he would not like a single scratch on the car when it is being delieverd. If there is one and the car is still sold, it would be considered as breach of trust. (pls read the article Consumer panel asks General Motors to pay up for faulty car - Express India. The law tends to agree with that I am trying to say). In my case, I still give Honda and the dealer the benefit of the doubt as my meeting hasnt taken place. I believe the concerns would be addressed to the best of my satisfaction. But what has happened to Jmatthews is unacceptable.

To put things into perspective, let me ask you a very simple question. Let us assume that the last fancy brand shirt you bought had its pocket tornd. You didn't realize this at the time of purchase. Immediately when you take it back to the showroom, would you like to have it stitched to your satisfaction? Or would you demand for a replacement?

Having said whatever you said, I think in your initial post you were only being concerned and meant to post your thoughts with the best of intentions. I would appeal to the rest of the members to let it go so that we can constructively find out ways to help Jmatthews
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Old 25th August 2008, 12:58   #225
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Originally Posted by tush View Post
@jmathew

Check the following link which mentions a case filed by a consumer against General Motors. Also it was published in Indian Express dated 6th August 2008.

Consumer panel asks General Motors to pay up for faulty car - Express India
Well! The link was a good one. The company did pay for it dearly. Consumer court looks like the right solution. Catch a lawyer and file a suite. And rest will be done by the consumer court, dragging the dealer to the court a couple of times should get him back on track.

Here is a experience I had.

Got a philips brand new 29" TV the display keeps flickering. I take it to dealer. He says I have a problem with the house earthing. I check the earthing. all is fine. I go back to him, He says my house has an electrical wiring fault. I say no. I Threaten him I will to go to the consumer court if not not given a replacement. He cooly says "OK". I say fine.

next day File a suite against the dealer. send a email to Philips and CC the same to the dealer. And in in 2 days I get a brand new TV, and an apology letter from the dealer. I take my case back saying I got a replacement and now Am happy. TV is 5 years old now and not a problem. This was just an experience I had although it does not relate to any cars.

The thing here is there are legal ways to do so, but some of us are just ignorant to follow them, as we do not have any knowledge about the laws in the country, and how they should be applied. It is always better to consult a lawyer snd get things on the right track. All the best. And I hope you get a replacement.
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