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Old 22nd March 2009, 16:10   #316
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Friends - I've been following this thread extensively in last 1-2 months. In fact, this was the most useful thread for me when I was in the midst of deciding on my new sedan. To me, there was lot of bashing on this thread with the groups clearly divided into 2 groups. Amidst all these, tomthump's posts were really refreshing with balanced views. My request to both groups are as below

To all those who've taken strong exception to the threadstarter: Friends, for whatever intentions, its a fact that this thread of the threadstarter is quite informative & has given a true story behind the dealerships which is masked behind those glaring exteriors when we go to purchase a car. Also, we can see its not the threadstarter but the dealer who has done the wrongs. And how many of us blow the whistle to the authorities when our employers do some wrongs?

To all those who "worshipped" the threadstarter for "having courage" to come out: Friends, again here what is it that prompted the threadstarter to leave the job & to come out & reveal this? is it that he was conscious of customers getting cheated? Not at all else he would have left when he saw the first customer getting cheated had he been conscious of the customers & morality. is it the 2nd customers agony in scorching sun which prompted him to leave the job? not perhaps, may be. But the likely reason seems to be that his employer left him in the lurch when traffic police caught him & employers made him pay the fine from his own pocket. Would he have left the job if the employers paid the fine & took good care of him? Has he exhibited "courage" in revealing all these? Once you leave the job with a bitter taste on employer & feeling at receiving end, does it require "courage" to reveal these? In fact, in a way isn't it that he helped himself by taking a "revenge" on the dealership by posting this explosive story? On a positive side, he helped others also to think twice before going to this dealership.

These are my views (am new here & don't know exact meaning of popular phrase - "my 2 cents" & where its generally used)

My above views/ thoughts are not addressed to any individual or any person. Just wanted to share it with 2 groups involved in bashing with extreme views.

Peace out.
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Old 24th March 2009, 00:28   #317
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Vahan,
I don't really know if if I'm still qualified to post a reply on this thread, because I made an awful boo boo a few days back, and all those who've subscribed here know what I mean 'cause they all have it in their email even though the last few strings in here have been deleted.

as you suggest, the threadstarter gave us his honest opinions, and really valuable info too, because otherwise how else would us common folks get to know what goes on behind the scenes?

I am personally grateful to the threadstarter for all that he has posted, because I think I did MY test drive of my 1.6 on one of those cars he mentioned, at RF, at Pathady in Cochin.

But my experience with the sales person was positive. He was cooperative and warm, and even after the drive, even though we typically walked away, he still had a smile on his face, which is why I still say, please don't judge a dealer or a corporate because of a few bad experiences caused by incompetent ill trained people.

I may have bought from the same delaer or from another dealer, but that driving experience was what sold me that car. And I will always appreciate the facility offered by RF, and the service by that rep.

As a customer, if I end up with a demo vehicle (which I hope I never ever do!) I'd also get extremely unhappy, to have to use soiled goods, and no honest car dealer should do that.

All I can make is a statement on what a dealer should not do, but in these situations, only the concerned car manufacturer can do something. If the manufacturer is not confident enough in the potential sales volumes, can you blame a dealer who is willing to plunk his money in a vehicle, to just offer it for test drives?

Any popular car would not need to be test driven from the dealer, because it's available already. It is only the special ones that are not easily accessible that we need to go to the showroom for.

As I mentioned earler here, I sell chainsaws, to professionals. My customers walk in knowing what they want. As a dealer, I have to give them what they ask for, but I am also a regular consumer outside my owm shop, and I expect honesty from the shopkeepers I visit.

So I too try to practise honesty in my premises. Because my principal is supportive, I get demo saws at discounted rates, which I offer to my customers to try out, unconditionally.

Unconditionally means whatever happens with the equipment, I bear the costs.

But for the lat six months, which means ever since I got my demo pieces, not even one customer has been willing to take me up on my offer!!

What does this mean?

I guess as consumers we walk in with in a predetermined notion and we mistrust the shopkeeper so much that we are not willing to accept honesrty even when we face it directly.

We prefer to be comfortable with notions of how all sellers are cheats. But if we look ay ourselves, we can see that we are honest decent folks. Why are we not willing to accept the same of others?

Because nowadays bad labels stick for much longer, and casual statements made by common folk such as us carry more weight than expensive advertisements. And looking at the amount of money invested by car dealerships, they will know that we are important and they'd never attempt to cheat us.

I'd still blame inefficient management systems
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Old 24th March 2009, 08:13   #318
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Vahan,
Because nowadays bad labels stick for much longer, and casual statements made by common folk such as us carry more weight than expensive advertisements. And looking at the amount of money invested by car dealerships, they will know that we are important and they'd never attempt to cheat us.

I'd still blame inefficient management systems
Nice, sensible lateral thinking.
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Old 25th March 2009, 00:30   #319
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I don't really know if if I'm still qualified to post a reply on this thread, because I made an awful boo boo a few days back, and all those who've subscribed here know what I mean 'cause they all have it in their email even though the last few strings in here have been deleted.

as you suggest, the threadstarter gave us his honest opinions, and really valuable info too, because otherwise how else would us common folks get to know what goes on behind the scenes?

I am personally grateful to the threadstarter for all that he has posted, because I think I did MY test drive of my 1.6 on one of those cars he mentioned, at RF, at Pathady in Cochin.

But my experience with the sales person was positive. He was cooperative and warm, and even after the drive, even though we typically walked away, he still had a smile on his face, which is why I still say, please don't judge a dealer or a corporate because of a few bad experiences caused by incompetent ill trained people.

I may have bought from the same delaer or from another dealer, but that driving experience was what sold me that car. And I will always appreciate the facility offered by RF, and the service by that rep.

As a customer, if I end up with a demo vehicle (which I hope I never ever do!) I'd also get extremely unhappy, to have to use soiled goods, and no honest car dealer should do that.

All I can make is a statement on what a dealer should not do, but in these situations, only the concerned car manufacturer can do something. If the manufacturer is not confident enough in the potential sales volumes, can you blame a dealer who is willing to plunk his money in a vehicle, to just offer it for test drives?

Any popular car would not need to be test driven from the dealer, because it's available already. It is only the special ones that are not easily accessible that we need to go to the showroom for.

As I mentioned earler here, I sell chainsaws, to professionals. My customers walk in knowing what they want. As a dealer, I have to give them what they ask for, but I am also a regular consumer outside my owm shop, and I expect honesty from the shopkeepers I visit.

So I too try to practise honesty in my premises. Because my principal is supportive, I get demo saws at discounted rates, which I offer to my customers to try out, unconditionally.

Unconditionally means whatever happens with the equipment, I bear the costs.

But for the lat six months, which means ever since I got my demo pieces, not even one customer has been willing to take me up on my offer!!

What does this mean?

I guess as consumers we walk in with in a predetermined notion and we mistrust the shopkeeper so much that we are not willing to accept honesrty even when we face it directly.

We prefer to be comfortable with notions of how all sellers are cheats. But if we look ay ourselves, we can see that we are honest decent folks. Why are we not willing to accept the same of others?

Because nowadays bad labels stick for much longer, and casual statements made by common folk such as us carry more weight than expensive advertisements. And looking at the amount of money invested by car dealerships, they will know that we are important and they'd never attempt to cheat us.

I'd still blame inefficient management systems
tomthump - i could not visit this thread for a few days & would love to read those posts which are missing & deleted

I may have bought from the same delaer or from another dealer, but that driving experience was what sold me that car. And I will always appreciate the facility offered by RF, and the service by that rep.

I would say 10 good things can not absolve 1 sin. The dealer can not getaway for even a single such incidence agaist 100 good incidences.

All I can make is a statement on what a dealer should not do, but in these situations, only the concerned car manufacturer can do something. If the manufacturer is not confident enough in the potential sales volumes, can you blame a dealer who is willing to plunk his money in a vehicle, to just offer it for test drives?

I would say that while there are some accountability of mfr but the larger share of the wrongful act goes to the dealer. If he is not earning, he is not entitled to cheating. is he? Rather he should leave that biz which is not earning him money rather than cheating. In your case, if you are not making money in your biz, would you sell those "tester" chainsaws (in disguise of new products) to unsuspecting customers or would you drop that product/principal & get into other biz?

Any popular car would not need to be test driven from the dealer, because it's available already. It is only the special ones that are not easily accessible that we need to go to the showroom for.

I would say almost 90% of car buyers buy car after Test Drive from Dealer though those cars are the highest selling cars like Maruti, Honda City

Unconditionally means whatever happens with the equipment, I bear the costs.

"Unconditionally" is the key word. Now can you see the difference & Dealer's integrity? & if your principals were not supportive, would you hv cheated your customers? No, you would have shifted to other principals.

I guess as consumers we walk in with in a predetermined notion and we mistrust the shopkeeper

Its the incidences like these which seems to have made consumers suspicious. Take my example. When I purchased my first car in 2003, I paid the amt, just went to the dealer & drove away in car. Never knew about self-PDI, checklist etc etc till I saw all these on t-bhp. I'll get delivery of another car in a week & have decided to do a self-PDI with a checklist

I'd still blame inefficient management systems

Yes, The mfr accountability is to rein in such dealers, penalise them & straighten them out. However, the larger share of this crime is by Dealer & that pertains to his integrity

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Old 25th March 2009, 23:04   #320
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In your case, if you are not making money in your biz, would you sell those "tester" chainsaws (in disguise of new products) to unsuspecting customers or would you drop that product/principal & get into other biz?



"Unconditionally" is the key word. Now can you see the difference & Dealer's integrity? & if your principals were not supportive, would you hv cheated your customers? No, you would have shifted to other principals.


Yes, The mfr accountability is to rein in such dealers, penalise them & straighten them out. However, the larger share of this crime is by Dealer & that pertains to his integrity

Unconditionally means whatever happens with the equipment, I bear the costs.

"Unconditionally" is the key word. Now can you see the difference & Dealer's integrity? & if your principals were not supportive, would you hv cheated your customers?
Vahan,

you must know that what I say below is off topic, which is not kindly looked on here, because these threads are meant for specific subjects, and not meant to go off track. But anyway...

We have been selling saws since 1995, and I like to think we were the first in Kerala to do so, i.e., exclusively sell and service these equipment.

Over the years we gained knowledge about what would be suitable for our customers, the models, the consumables, the repairs, etc.

All throughout, there was info available from the manufacturers in the form of literature and training seminars. But honestly it was my brother who did all the initial spade work, learning the innards of these machines, and developing service procedures suitable for our kind of use. And the work he did helped establish customer confidence.

You asked if we'd drop our principal if they did not give us support, or if the demo saws are not gratis!?

No in both cases. We, that is me and my brothers, we do what we do because we enjoy doing it.

Everyone has some firsts they can claim, and we do too. We were among the first to sell thermal foggers here, the first to sell chainsaws and brushcutters and mistblowers. We introduced a concept we called open field misting in plantation crops like cardamom, coffee and rubber. We were the first to sell gravity feed drippers and very low pressure drippers. We introduced static sprinklers.

We did not invent anything. We just sourced new concepts and products and adapted them for our own customers. We did not have any customers for any of our products, First we bought the item, we tested them, and then we suggested them. That is how we have done our business always. We invest our own money. We do not canvas orders, we do not advertise, and we are choosy about who we sell to.

Maybe we are contrary, but we make a living doing our business the way we like it.

Every product we sold was unique, and there was nothing a buyer could compare them with, so we learnt about 'unconditional'.

If I have no confidence in the product I sell, how can I honestly expect to sell and remain in business?

And I do not claim we are one of a kind, because most successful car dealers (as the thread here is meant to be on that subject, and after all I do need to tie the cow to the coconut tree), have been successful because all of them are unique in their individual ways, just as each car is individually different.

I agree there may be dishonesty, but no dealer can have a policy of outright cheating, unless he is scalavag out for fast buck, and no car dealership is that kind.

All of us experience indifferent service, bad front office treatment, exoirbitant (from our point of view) charges, shoddy workmanship, poorly assembled vehicles,... the list can be rather long.

But I wonder how many of us appreciate the risk taken by the individual or group that invested in the venture, the eager expectations of the employees working there, and the optimistic hopes of the manufacturer?

You may wonder why I am being a little bit aggressive in my statements here, but it is just that often we prefer to be negative in our comments, a true facility which can shed light on lots of wrong doings, but I think we also need people like me to counteract and say folks are good. That is all.
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Old 26th March 2009, 09:46   #321
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tomthump,

I was thinking yday that I must post a msg to agree to a small but very imp item you mentioned in your earlier post.

A very imp accountability of a mfr (which is also a key to its biz success) is to ensure that his Trade Partners get atleast a decent Return on thier Investment. Here in this particular case this is the biggest weakness of the mfr. Having said that, I still feel that if a Dealer is not earning money, it is not right for him to resort to unethical ways to find a wrong way out. We simply can't justify that by putting the blame squarely on mfr.

The example I used was to just draw an analogy of your biz with the Car biz. To rephrase the example:
If we assume that the dealer here doesn't earn enough money to justify investment in TD cars, he can not justify using the display cars as TD & to sell it off in disguise of a new/ fresh car to unsuspecting customers. As an example, had I been in his place, I certainly would not have done it. I would hv 2 options - either not to offer TD of that particular model to customers OR if that is not possible,then to move out of that biz / mfr as it doesn't make any biz sense.

In the long run, in such a scenario, the mfr who has failed to ensure adequate returns for its Trade Partners suffers hugely. And thats what is happening to the mfr in question here.

You are also right that there are falks who are honest. In each Product, there are brands which are symbol of Reliability & trust. They thus enjoy premium & consumers are less suspicious dealing with these brands (quite often we say - "take product from that brand with closed eyes & forget about all issues"



Note from Mod : Please take the time to type out your posts in full words as per Team-BHP rules. Avoid the use of SMS language (hv = have, dat = that, etc). Take a look at this thread (Expected Posting Etiquette) for details. Thanks.

Last edited by Rehaan : 26th March 2009 at 19:19. Reason: Please see note in post.
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Old 14th May 2009, 23:38   #322
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I have not posted since March because there was nothing new I could usefully contribute.

But I guess as a dealer, not as a customer, I'd expect a customer of mine to say good of me if i've been good to him, after a justifiable interval whether or not I've used the product.

So I have to say that I bought my Fiat Pailo Stile 1.6 Sport from Kulathunkal Motors, Trivandrum.

The vehicle was delivered at my doorstep at 8.00 A.M by Mr.Deepu who visited me at my office, and booked my order. He also offered to bring me a test vehicle if I desired so, and invited me to visit his service facility and to meet his superiors who he said would clarify any doubts I had.

Mr.Deepu was also helpul in taking care of booking a slot for my first service.

I have mentioned my experiences in this thread, so there is not point in repetitions.

The car has covered 12000 Kms and by the seventh month it will be one year old. There has been only three incidences of Limp Mode after the fuel pump change.

I still love the car, even more so after having test driven the Fiat Linea and the Chevorlet Avea.

My next service falls due in a couple of months, and I hope to post my comments after that.

But if you are looking at a new small car, if you enjoy driving and would enjoy power and speed, I'd suggest you test drive a Palio Sport just for the heck of it. Don't be biased. Yes, I certainly agree with folks who doubt the quality of after sales service, but then you don't have to spend a single paisa to do a test drive. And if you need a performace benchmark for a small car, I'd advice the car I own and drive.

Have a nice day.
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Old 15th May 2009, 09:45   #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomthump View Post
I have not posted since March because there was nothing new I could usefully contribute.

But I guess as a dealer, not as a customer, I'd expect a customer of mine to say good of me if i've been good to him, after a justifiable interval whether or not I've used the product.

So I have to say that I bought my Fiat Pailo Stile 1.6 Sport from Kulathunkal Motors, Trivandrum.

The vehicle was delivered at my doorstep at 8.00 A.M by Mr.Deepu who visited me at my office, and booked my order. He also offered to bring me a test vehicle if I desired so, and invited me to visit his service facility and to meet his superiors who he said would clarify any doubts I had.

Mr.Deepu was also helpul in taking care of booking a slot for my first service.

I have mentioned my experiences in this thread, so there is not point in repetitions.

The car has covered 12000 Kms and by the seventh month it will be one year old. There has been only three incidences of Limp Mode after the fuel pump change.

I still love the car, even more so after having test driven the Fiat Linea and the Chevorlet Avea.

My next service falls due in a couple of months, and I hope to post my comments after that.

But if you are looking at a new small car, if you enjoy driving and would enjoy power and speed, I'd suggest you test drive a Palio Sport just for the heck of it. Don't be biased. Yes, I certainly agree with folks who doubt the quality of after sales service, but then you don't have to spend a single paisa to do a test drive. And if you need a performace benchmark for a small car, I'd advice the car I own and drive.

Have a nice day.
I knew that your "secret dealer" would be this one only. Never seen anything as optimistic as "There has been only three incidences of Limp Mode after the fuel pump change."

I guess you owe us a thread in the long term ownership space.
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Old 16th May 2009, 14:04   #324
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Its good to know that things are well. Fiat persay is not a bad manufacturer. In India however due to the services the things went wrong.

The increasing number of Linea's on the roads are testimony that things are looking up


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Originally Posted by tomthump View Post
I have not posted since March because there was nothing new I could usefully contribute.

But I guess as a dealer, not as a customer, I'd expect a customer of mine to say good of me if i've been good to him, after a justifiable interval whether or not I've used the product.

So I have to say that I bought my Fiat Pailo Stile 1.6 Sport from Kulathunkal Motors, Trivandrum.

The vehicle was delivered at my doorstep at 8.00 A.M by Mr.Deepu who visited me at my office, and booked my order. He also offered to bring me a test vehicle if I desired so, and invited me to visit his service facility and to meet his superiors who he said would clarify any doubts I had.

Mr.Deepu was also helpul in taking care of booking a slot for my first service.

I have mentioned my experiences in this thread, so there is not point in repetitions.

The car has covered 12000 Kms and by the seventh month it will be one year old. There has been only three incidences of Limp Mode after the fuel pump change.

I still love the car, even more so after having test driven the Fiat Linea and the Chevorlet Avea.

My next service falls due in a couple of months, and I hope to post my comments after that.

But if you are looking at a new small car, if you enjoy driving and would enjoy power and speed, I'd suggest you test drive a Palio Sport just for the heck of it. Don't be biased. Yes, I certainly agree with folks who doubt the quality of after sales service, but then you don't have to spend a single paisa to do a test drive. And if you need a performace benchmark for a small car, I'd advice the car I own and drive.

Have a nice day.
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Old 16th May 2009, 19:25   #325
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Can't totally say the Linea is trouble free, there are numerous reports of problems with the car, and most of them are going without being rectified due to lack of service capability from the particular dealer in Cochin.
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Old 16th May 2009, 19:33   #326
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Can't totally say the Linea is trouble free, there are numerous reports of problems with the car, and most of them are going without being rectified due to lack of service capability from the particular dealer in Cochin.
The dealers themselves have acknowledged that the Linea has very poor plastics. Like the door handle, seat mechanism etc, which keep breaking off very easily.
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Old 18th May 2009, 12:03   #327
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Seems that we are vback to square one with Fiat in India. But we should give them some more time to settle down before writing them off completely.

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The dealers themselves have acknowledged that the Linea has very poor plastics. Like the door handle, seat mechanism etc, which keep breaking off very easily.
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Old 18th May 2009, 13:40   #328
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But I guess as a dealer, not as a customer, I'd expect a customer of mine to say good of me if i've been good to him, after a justifiable interval whether or not I've used the product.
tomthump - nice to see revival of the thread. Yes, agree wih you - we must pat the dealer's back when he does a good job. On Fiat cars also you are spot on. I've not used any Fiat car til now but just bought Linea & must say that overall build quality, stability, features etc are very good, though its very early for me to judge.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, for Fiat's perspective, it must ensure that - 1) the dealers must earn a decent returns on selling & servicing Fiat Cars & 2) Fiat must be able to excercise control over the dealers to ensure superior A.S.S. to customers
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Seems that we are vback to square one with Fiat in India. But we should give them some more time to settle down before writing them off completely.
Oops!! we never spare Fiat even for a minute thing, right? And its understandable as there are horrible stories about Palio A.S.S. & spares unavailabilities. IMO, first we must see the intentions & approach. And I being a first time fiat-car owner, have experienced that its intention is right this time around & they are making every effort to improve A.S.S.

Plastics are a very small thing which can be taken care of, the imp item is how's the overall package. If we keep writing off each car on 1 or the other issue, which car will be left? which car is perfect in everything?
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Old 5th June 2009, 22:28   #329
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I've not used any Fiat car til now but just bought Linea & must say that overall build quality, stability, features etc are very good, though its very early for me to judge.

If we keep writing off each car on 1 or the other issue, which car will be left? which car is perfect in everything?
Vahan,

I hope you have a lovely time with your new Linea. All the best to you and wish you a graet time on the road!

I did a test drive on the Linea a short while back, because my sister is looking for a new car to replace their Santro. They are looking at the Honda, but wanted me to give my feedback on other cars too. We did a short hop on a Linea, Petrol and the engine seemed rather sluggish on the second gear. For me, I need just passable interiors but performance from the throttle and gears, and really safe brakes. Because the response did not feel comfortable, I suggested we avoid the Linea. was I wrong? Because the sales person was really good and helpful, and the car (We looked at the top model) had lots of nice frills too.

Could it have been just that car, or do you get a slight lag on the second shift? Just curious 'ats all.

In the meanwhile, come this mid month of June, my Palio Sport will be all of one year old. No more limp modes, and having fun all the time. Fiat Palio are getting slighly more visible in my town, just a few more actually, but nice to see more people willing to take a risk though.

Have a good day.
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Old 6th June 2009, 11:51   #330
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Tomthump

The gears in Linea are short. In fact, 1st & 2nd gears are very short. It takes time to get adjusted to drive Linea from the way one has driven his earlier other car. You can check my ownership experience in my thread where I criticised Linea power initially & once I got used to the Clutch-Gear-Accelerator combo, I felt very comfortable with power
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ml#post1335075

Havind said that, the Power is not an issue, Linea is not very agile in 1st & 2nd gear at lower RPMs. Once you cross 1500-1800 RPMs, she is on her own & cruises. Some owners here have taken her till 175 kmph speed (with pics of speedo posted here in some threads)
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