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Old 4th February 2009, 11:27   #31
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BaldOwl : I can backout on what is written even if i have signed it. Depends upon what is written, whether it is legally allowed to be written in the first place.

Thats what i want to know. I think no dealer can keep any amount of the booking amount with him if the customer cancels the booking for a valid reason.
What's legal is what you have agreed to. If you have signed on a paper that says in PRINT that x,y,z will be done by you (or dealer) - then you are all bound to do it. If you have signed for a 10k cancellation fees, then you are agreeing to that.

If you dont agree, dont sign it. Period.

Does the booking form say the amount will be returned immediately ? Or after a period ? Or is it open ended ?
[ Again : even if it is open ended, you have signed & agreed to such terms].

Reg changes / black-outs : anything written in hand (changes / additions ), any strike-outs have to be attested by both parties to be held as 'AGREED' upon. Anything less can be construed as tampering.

So if you want to strike-out something on a form, remember to get it attested by the dealer too.

And what is not legal about him stating his terms ? If you dont like it, pls walk out of that place.

And why shouldnt he handle his money the way he wants to ? He is there to run a business, to make a livelihood, and has to meet his expenses too - for his setup and his people.
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Old 4th February 2009, 12:05   #32
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Condor, although there are various legal angles and formalities, there are some things which one does out of goodwill (remember the Sundaram experience we talked about yesterday? ). Had they stuck to what they said, car'zy would have been a happy customer.

If it was my money, i would complain as well. Ofcourse, the legal angle is a different part of the story, which he has accepted.
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Old 4th February 2009, 12:16   #33
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What's legal is what you have agreed to. If you have signed on a paper that says in PRINT that x,y,z will be done by you (or dealer) - then you are all bound to do it. If you have signed for a 10k cancellation fees, then you are agreeing to that.
Is it the legal right of the dealer to ask for a cancellation fee in the first place?

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If you dont agree, dont sign it. Period.
I know so i wont. What about the people who dont and get harrassed. Read somewhere in this forum about a guy being asked to pay for all damages for totalling a TD car. He signed so he had to?

In the same post i saw another person who saw the fine print and didnt take the TD.

So was it legal on the part of the dealer to add such a clause. Remember the meaning of "accident". By its own description its difficult to pinpoint a blame.

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Does the booking form say the amount will be returned immediately ? Or after a period ? Or is it open ended ?
[ Again : even if it is open ended, you have signed & agreed to such terms].
Can i carry a self printed form and ask the dealer to sign?

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Reg changes / black-outs : anything written in hand (changes / additions ), any strike-outs have to be attested by both parties to be held as 'AGREED' upon. Anything less can be construed as tampering.
Agree.

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So if you want to strike-out something on a form, remember to get it attested by the dealer too.
Is the form handed over to me by the dealer a formally attested and verified document as per the law of the land. Or is it at the fancy of the dealer that he can add anything on the form and have it binding on the customer?

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And what is not legal about him stating his terms ? If you dont like it, pls walk out of that place.
So if i found out that he has illegally added a clause i walk out too?

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And why shouldnt he handle his money the way he wants to ? He is there to run a business, to make a livelihood, and has to meet his expenses too - for his setup and his people.
Agreed. But within the law.

You havent answered my question regarding booking amount returned to a customer on cancellation, whether it can be deducted and given back or if interest has to be given.

PS: You run a car dealership? I dont.
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Old 4th February 2009, 12:34   #34
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BaldOwl : Is it the legal right of the dealer to ask for a cancellation fee in the first place?
His terms of doing business. If you have proof otherwise, show it to him, get that clause cancelled before you book the car.

Will also help us all when we book cars.

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BaldOwl : So was it legal on the part of the dealer to add such a clause.
he is protecting himself, & limiting his liability. You can also do that, in your own ways, like here :
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BaldOwl : Can i carry a self printed form and ask the dealer to sign?
Why not. Ask him to sign the form as agreement to your terms.

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BaldOwl : Is the form handed over to me by the dealer a formally attested and verified document as per the law of the land. Or is it at the fancy of the dealer that he can add anything on the form and have it binding on the customer?
has he added anything to this form after you signed it ? Or to his copy of the form ?

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BaldOwl : So if i found out that he has illegally added a clause i walk out too?
Prove it, and it's yours.

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BaldOwl : You havent answered my question regarding booking amount returned to a customer on cancellation, whether it can be deducted and given back or if interest has to be given.
I havent, because I am not the dealer. Ask him. Ask the consumer forums to help you.

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BaldOwl : PS: You run a car dealership?
Playing the devil's advocate.

Bottom Line : It's a transaction. There are terms. You dont like it, dont do it. No one is forcing you to. The dealer didnt call you - you went there to book a car. Even if he called you, it was your decision to go to him & book a car with him.
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Old 4th February 2009, 12:47   #35
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Ah!! The take it or leave it attitude. No guesses why we see dealers and manufacturers trying to short change customers by selling them TD cars and keeping thier booking amount.

So you dont know whether legally the dealer can take cancellation charges. Thats what i wanted to know. Other stuff I am aware of.

Jagoo Grahak Jagoo - gets a whole new meaning.
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Old 4th February 2009, 14:37   #36
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BaldOwl, consider the following situations :
* There is a clause when you give in your car for servicing that they arent responsible for any damage to the car during their TDs. Does that mean you never give your car in for servicing?

* When you park your car at a public parking where you need to pay, you're given a receipt absolving the concerned person for any damage to your car. It clearly says, "Parking at owners risk". so, you never park your car there?

* When you sign up for a home loan, there are terms and conditions you would need to read and understand.

In all the above situations, you go ahead with the process KNOWING about what you're getting into. Same is the case in car'zy's case as well.

The difference is when the other party tries to settle something out of pure goodwill. That is not something you can demand.

There are terms which are entered
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Old 4th February 2009, 14:53   #37
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Originally Posted by benbsb29 View Post
Condor, although there are various legal angles and formalities, there are some things which one does out of goodwill (remember the Sundaram experience we talked about yesterday? ). Had they stuck to what they said, car'zy would have been a happy customer.

If it was my money, i would complain as well. Ofcourse, the legal angle is a different part of the story, which he has accepted.

Yes, I agree. I was pretty ok with Lathangi before this happened. All they have ended up doing is lost my goodwill, I have already guided a colleague to another dealer for a Fiesta purchase. I really dont know what these dealers get out of this as opposed to what they potentially lose by behaving that way with customers.

Also, I'm really interested to know if the clause they put on the booking forms is something which is legally allowed? Any legal luminaries here? What I know is, just because they have it, it doesnt become a law, it can be contested.

Last edited by car'zy : 4th February 2009 at 14:54.
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Old 4th February 2009, 14:53   #38
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BaldOwl : So you dont know whether legally the dealer can take cancellation charges. Thats what i wanted to know. Other stuff I am aware of.
Let's for a moment assume that I dont know. Why dont you prove it is illegal. Or at least why it is not legal.

If you were to lend your car to someone, even a friend, would you not set expections before giving it ?

Where is the take-it-or-leave-it coming in (here) from ?

The dealer has actually done his part by clearly stating what is expected from you, and what is he willing to do.
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Old 4th February 2009, 14:57   #39
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Originally Posted by benbsb29 View Post
* There is a clause when you give in your car for servicing that they arent responsible for any damage to the car during their TDs. Does that mean you never give your car in for servicing?
Is there a clause like that? I dont see it. So if they total it they will not repair it.

Search for the thread: Metro Ford totalled my car, the guy got a replacement and there are many more.

Awareness is the key.

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* When you park your car at a public parking where you need to pay, you're given a receipt absolving the concerned person for any damage to your car. It clearly says, "Parking at owners risk". so, you never park your car there?
You used the word Public, i cannot demand security for my car in a public place by paying 5/10/25 rupees. If it gets damaged i report to the police & insurance and they handle it. Thats why we pay premiums.

I dont stop parking. Now take the analogy for servicing my car above.

If i park in a private property - say 5 star hotel or similiar and pay for it and they put up boards saying they are not responsible and i sign it. They still are responsible for it, whatever the board says. LEGALLY. The crime has happened in their owned and maintained premise they cannot rub it off.

Case: Swift stolen from a 5 star hotel in Bangalore. The Hotel reimbursed the owner.

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* When you sign up for a home loan, there are terms and conditions you would need to read and understand.
I read the whole document believe me. Each one of us commits great sacrifieces to earn his money. I for the life of me cannot see a single rupee being taken out of me unfairly by anyone.

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In all the above situations, you go ahead with the process KNOWING about what you're getting into. Same is the case in car'zy's case as well.
I do but not blindly. If i dont like it i dont sign.

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The difference is when the other party tries to settle something out of pure goodwill. That is not something you can demand.

There are terms which are entered
Goodwill is intangible. And at a micro level dosent make much difference. Goodwill for one customer asking for a cancellation is penalty is different for goodwill for a corporate customer. You can turn down the former but in the later case you might lose out.

My point is does anyone of you know whether what you sign at these dealerships (forms, etc) are they legally created or is it at the fancies of the dealer?

Secondly do you take a copy of the same sheet duly signed by the dealer agreeing to the same?
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Old 4th February 2009, 15:04   #40
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Let's for a moment assume that I dont know. Why dont you prove it is illegal. Or at least why it is not legal.
I dont know and thats what i have been asking. You on the other hand are justifying it. So i thought you know that it is legal. Is it?

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The dealer has actually done his part by clearly stating what is expected from you, and what is he willing to do.
Ah.. you dont get the point. You are saying the dealer can do no wrong and what he is asking you to sign is legally valid and he has all the right to do it, just because he runs the business? I want to know whether that is true.

The dealer is God? Customer shouldnt ask questions? I contest that you should not deduct my money unless you have a legal right to do it. Do they?

Because they print it on their form doesnt make it legal.
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Old 4th February 2009, 16:29   #41
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Originally Posted by BaldOwl View Post
Is there a clause like that? I dont see it. So if they total it they will not repair it.

Search for the thread: Metro Ford totalled my car, the guy got a replacement and there are many more.

Awareness is the key.
@BaldOwl: A clause like this do exist ! Please find it in my earlier post: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post1044464 (IKONic problems).
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Old 4th February 2009, 16:39   #42
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Originally Posted by BaldOwl View Post
Is there a clause like that? I dont see it. So if they total it they will not repair it.

Search for the thread: Metro Ford totalled my car, the guy got a replacement and there are many more.

Awareness is the key.
I agree with the last sentence of the quote above.

As for the Metro Ford case, it was great on the part of the consumer court for passing a judgement in favor of the harried customer.

However, has that clause been removed? I dont think so. It still exists.

To quote something about the irregularity/inconsistency of the judgements passed by our courts including the honourable Supreme Court, take a look at this thread :

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...ndhs-fine.html (Supreme Court says bandhs are fine !)

This is in total contrast to another statement from them earlier.

To conclude, one Metro ruling doesnt make it a fact.
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Old 4th February 2009, 16:50   #43
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BaldOwl : Ah.. you dont get the point..
No, I just do not get (your) point.

I have already thrown light on this, that the choice is yours to accept his terms, or not to. Nobody has forced you to accept his terms. Nobody is forcing you to do business with a specific dealer. You are free to search for a dealer who's terms you like & are comfortable with.


An analogy is about risk, and acceptable risk. No situation is absoultely safe & risk-free. You always take a certain amount of risk in anything you do. How much of risk you is accceptable to you is up to you to decide.

And any activity almost always involves other entities too - which in turn means that if you want to do something together, then have to you both agree upon a certain set of terms. Else, you dont have to do the activity itself.
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Old 4th February 2009, 16:52   #44
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Originally Posted by mail4loys View Post
@BaldOwl: A clause like this do exist ! Please find it in my earlier post: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post1044464 (IKONic problems).
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However, has that clause been removed? I dont think so. It still exists.
Scary times indeed. Does anyone know whether these dealers have a legal right to add it to their forms?

I find this as a very odd situation. For anything that they screw up they can shove this in our face and we cant do anything.

Yeah and about legalising bandhs, the optimist is me is dying a slow death.
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Old 4th February 2009, 16:56   #45
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@Condor: Thanks for your replies. Appreciate your time. No point in discussing if my, yours, his points are not understood. Defeats the purpose of a forum, but then who am I.
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