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Old 2nd April 2009, 20:58   #61
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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
I have got 100K+ clutch life on every one of my cars. Even after tracking it.
Ask for your old parts. That clutch can be sold to someone who will easily use it for another 50K.
OK, I'd like to change my statement. That old clutch 'WILL' be sold or fitted to another customer, a gullible setji types who comes in with a truly failed clutch. He will go home happy with his 'so called' new clutch for which he will pay full price and then continue to drive the car for another 50-70K.
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Old 2nd April 2009, 21:01   #62
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Navin, what i will now state is a rather frank opinion. I believe you have been rather magnanimous with respect to the amount of money you just shelled out for this service.

For one, i cannot fathom as to how a clutch needs to be replaced at just around 30k kms, and just because it feels hard?! We have a thread about Swifts and their weak clutches, but this just takes the cake. You have even mentioned that you do not ride the clutch. I am stunned.

Secondly, Jaggu has made a very valid point about the A/C evaporator. You felt the cooling had reduced, and replaced the cooling coil?!

Go over the bill again and think again. Was this bill which was presented to you justified? I think not, and i get the feeling many others dont as well.
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Old 2nd April 2009, 21:04   #63
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Originally Posted by sudev View Post
Cooling can come down significantly with the filter on the a/c evaporator getting choked. See my thread on Grand Vitara where just cleaning the filter made huge difference to the colling. Since none of the other Maruti vehicles (not to my knowledge) had similar filters this was a first for me. (posted on relevant thread here).
As some one else pointed out if it was leaking then a/c would have been total kaput and not merely under performing.

All said it is a interesting insight on how high end workshops approach problem solving. Replace everything even if not needed. Customer is happy and the show room is happier!!
That somebody is me! and YES YES YES you are absolutely right with the above and i think Navin has been taken for a ride. Unless Navin has more facts which he hasnt shared till now.

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Originally Posted by mmmjgm View Post
My 2 cents,

1) a Defective evaporator should be fixed under warranty
2) Clutch being hard is to do with the lubrication of the clutch actuator arm on the clutch case/flywheel cover & cable/llinkages. - A pressure plate cannot harden on its own. (the device which provides feel and pressure to the clutch friction plate on the flywheel to transfer power)

3) was there some lining on the old clutch plate ? If so there was no need to change the clutch & pressure plate.

Last but not the least you should have got back the old parts, if you can please upload the clutch plate (friction plate) photos please ?

Navin hats off to you. My respect for you has grown two fold for this gesture.

Regards

M
1) Highly unlikely unless a clear manufacturing defect can be proven, same for any manufacturer.
2) Yes!
3) Pressure plate or release bearing can cause the issue, but this has to be confirmed by process of elimination of other parts/causes.

When you open up tranny, i personally feel its better to replace all the parts since opening up again for another part is a pain.

But same cant be said for AC parts!

am really furious now!
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Old 2nd April 2009, 21:09   #64
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Did you get back all the old parts?

Navinji, Although the service is pretty comprehensive, I have a feeling that the only thing that has been done is replace all the parts you had a concern with. Even if that means that the part was still functioning fine.

Rather than analyse and diagnose and try to fix or say that there is no need to change they have just gone ahead liberally changing parts even before they were anywhere close to failing.

Ofcourse this may not apply to all parts. Say the clutch, did they try changing the play, check the clutch cable, check the clutch fluid, check the clutch cylinders?
Navinji, I think you missed my post since it was at the same time.

Also did they ask you before changing these parts or did you give them a free hand.
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Old 2nd April 2009, 21:26   #65
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Sad !!! I read one believed it is just one-off but now its really sad. Skoda/VW has to really pull their socks before they are into another scam.


BTW did you guys check the picture in the head of Team-BHP. I think its time to pull it down as a gesture to Skoda.
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Old 2nd April 2009, 22:23   #66
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I always knew that owning luxury cars like the Skoda(Ok atleast in India) was expensive but the 65K bill is a shocker. Showrooms, especially the high end ones don't bother fixing anything. All they do is to replace things that can be easily fixed. We need a watch-dog/regulator for this. Where are the commies?
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Old 2nd April 2009, 23:06   #67
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I am sorry but this may sound very off topic

You see this is my third week in Germany, I came here for my Masters in Automotive.
Today I made a new friend and we were talking about the autobahn and stuff !! the thread title had completely taken me to thoughts such as another Team Bhpian in Germany and so on, but all this within the page loaded.
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Old 2nd April 2009, 23:08   #68
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Originally Posted by JayPrashanth View Post
I always knew that owning luxury cars like the Skoda(Ok atleast in India) was expensive but the 65K bill is a shocker. Showrooms, especially the high end ones don't bother fixing anything.
thats because the dealers create the impression that Skoda is some super high tech car built with space age NASA technology. Of course its costly to repair because the poor lil german baby runs on dirty indian fuel and crappy indian roads and breaths dirty indian air. THe word spreads around, "ooooh, Skoda hai ji, German hai, hitech hai, service to costly hoga". If you ask questions like why65K?, then you are a cheapo.

Little does the public realise that the Octy ( the diesel) is ancient 90s technology with 2 valves per cylinder,90 bhp, and no common rail. THe car itself is discontinued in many countries. GM's Magnum makes 140bhp with common rail, costs less to run and service and has great customer satisfaction ratings.

Last edited by Mpower : 2nd April 2009 at 23:11.
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Old 2nd April 2009, 23:14   #69
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
Yes Skoda parts are expensive. That is now a given. If someone has comparitive parts of a Accord, Civic, Corolla, Camry we'd know for sure.

Mercedes parts are even more expensive.
Talk about maintenance costs.

For comparative costs Autocar India's march edition has a comprehensive spare parts survey.
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Old 3rd April 2009, 00:22   #70
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Originally Posted by Perakath View Post
(a) You got your car back in time
(b) You don't seem to have issues with spurious parts or parts being replaced without authorisation

Edit: By the way, kudos for deliberately putting your money where everyone's
mouth is.
1. Actualy the car was ready before time. They couldnot deliver it as I was not in town.
2. Right now it is too early to say if the parts were spurious or not. I did get the old parts back and am keeping them incase someone on TBHP wants to inspect them. Farhan might.
3. So much has been said about Skoda's service on TBHP. My view was that unless someone really and truly tried out the service and documents just the facts (no opinion - just the facts) we would not know if Skoda is listening to all the noise we are making.

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Originally Posted by ajayr View Post
Did you try to meet Ms.Meghna Choksey while at Autobahn?
If it served a purpose I would. My only meeting was with Mr. Liyakat Chajju becuase that served a purpose.

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Clutch replaced for tightness, without trying out other options? !!!

AC radiator + etc etc coz AC cooling had gone down, if its a leak it will die down completely!!! How did they diagnose it was leaking?

Navin this went a lil too far for my liking.
True Skoda could have tried bleeding the clutch or some other techniques. What I think Skoda did was to change every part they felt was even slightly out of wack becuase in my meeting with Liyakat Chajju I had stressed that I am quite particular as to how my car should function.

Even now I do not find the clutch is as soft as the car originally was when I first bought it. After driving it over the weekend Autobahn has agreed to furter tune the clutch and brakes to my specific needs.

In my younger days (ages 23-26) I used to live only a few miles from Limerock CT and have raced there often. So I understand a little of what a car feels like when it is 'race-tuned'. I am a big fan of Alain Prost's style of driving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
My clutch is fine

Since I have the diagnostics and give them the fault codes - there is very little leeway with me!!
VAS/VAG codes wont tell you if the clutch is too hard or the brake discs need remachining or the AC coil has a leak will they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
No other car in the 10 - 20 lakh segment costs as much to service / maintain as the Octavia / Laura.

the difference between after-market and authorised can run upto 4 TIMES as much (My mercs engine mounts cost 7,000 in the aftermarket for OEM parts and 30,000 at Merc authorised). That's the point being made here.

This is overcharging, this is obscene pricing, this is blatant exploitation of the customer.
Good point. THis is exaclty what I am trying to get at. If I spent 65K on the service listed on post 1 (clutch, brake, ac coil, etc..) what would a simialr service of a Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla cost? More importantly would a Civic or Corolla even need service at 30K. For example would the cluch of a Corolla or Civic even show signs of getting hard/stiff at 30K?

So there are 2 points to be determined here.
1. When do other cars in this segment need to be serviced so that their performance is as good as when first bought
2. What do the same parts for other cars (Civic, Corolla, etc..) cost?

This will tell us if how much more expensive a vRS is to maintain when compared to cars costing the same. That the vRS is much more fun to drive than the Corolla (and maybe the Civic) is another argument.

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Originally Posted by Perakath View Post
Okay, GTO. It's just that after reading Navin's posts I got the impression that the service charges, while perhaps inflated, didn't bother him overly. (Not to mean that he's careless with money or anything!) And, as I said, he was lucky enough to get his vehicle back in time with genuine parts.
Perakath, I am not one who is easily flustered. Nothing other than the health of my friends and family upsets me - even then my usual reaction is stoic action.

As to if the parts used were genuine I cant say. I have not inspected each part used. I do have a box of old parts that were supposed to have been removed from my car. As much as everyone prefers to lable SKoda (or Honda) guilty, I will not unless the evidence is clear (as was in Harish's case).

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Originally Posted by benbsb29 View Post
Navin, what i will now state is a rather frank opinion. I believe you have been rather magnanimous with respect to the amount of money you just shelled out for this service.

For one, i cannot fathom as to how a clutch needs to be replaced at just around 30k kms, and just because it feels hard?! We have a thread about Swifts and their weak clutches, but this just takes the cake. You have even mentioned that you do not ride the clutch. I am stunned.

Secondly, Jaggu has made a very valid point about the A/C evaporator. You felt the cooling had reduced, and replaced the cooling coil?!

Go over the bill again and think again. Was this bill which was presented to you justified? I think not, and i get the feeling many others dont as well.
I WANTED the clutch to feel the same as it did when I first bought the car. Even now it is not. It is a big improvement but it is not exact and I can be damn near nutty when it comes to knowing exactly what I WANT.

The fun of the vRS is the smooth transfer of power, the soft clutch, the easy revving engine and the way it handles even on roads that are dusty and offer little help with traction. No point having a vRS when it drives like a Corolla. Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Unless Navin has more facts which he hasnt shared till now.

3) Pressure plate or release bearing can cause the issue, but this has to be confirmed by process of elimination of other parts/causes.
Jaggu to be honest my gut feel is/was that the release bearing was the main culprit. I should have communicated the same to Autobahn but doing so would then enable them to say "you said only change the release bearing".

Quote:
Originally Posted by vid6639 View Post
Did you get back all the old parts?

Navinji, Although the service is pretty comprehensive, I have a feeling that the only thing that has been done is replace all the parts you had a concern with. Even if that means that the part was still functioning fine.

Rather than analyse and diagnose and try to fix or say that there is no need to change they have just gone ahead liberally changing parts even before they were anywhere close to failing.

Ofcourse this may not apply to all parts. Say the clutch, did they try changing the play, check the clutch cable, check the clutch fluid, check the clutch cylinders?

Also did they ask you before changing these parts or did you give them a free hand.
Viddy I did miss your post earlier. Thanks for the repeat becuase you raise valuable points. Since you know me you know how I think.

1. I did not give them a free hand but did ask them to give me their diagnosis in which Autobahn recommeneded a change in clutch plate and not just bleeding the clutch. I guess bleeding the clutch would have only made is a bit softer while I wanted the 'tap-soft' clutch that had made me fall in love with the car in the first place. Like I said before I could have pushed the car another 10-20K with the existing clutch. My chauffer was not complaining and I just started borrowing my wife's ANHC when I wanted to go out.

2. If Skoda wanted to replace parts without discreation they would have recomended changing the brake discs but they recommened only machining the discs so that they are useable again. Still I believe that a finer maching job could have been done. I will remove the tyres on Sunday and post more on Monday. So Autobahn-Skoda/Liyakat, watch out this time you got a real monkey on your back.

The long and short of it.
So far while the parts and labour costs are on the high side and the replacement of parts very premature Autobahn has been fully cooperative in addressing all my complaints. The only issue I still have not cleared is was the throttle body cleaned? I will address this with them when my clutch goes for tuning.

However this is only the begining of this story. I want to drive the car for a while and only then will we know if the car was at the least serviced competently which is more than we can say for many other TBHPians (as per their statements on TBHP).

I intend to take it for a drive on Sunday alone. Just me and the car. On the highway, on worli sea face, on marine drive. I want to know if the car will be there when I hit the brakes in an emergency or if I take a turn a bit fast (and get the tail out a bit). For this sort of testing I prefer to be alone. No distractions. Not even ICE - I usually hum to myself when in this zone.
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Old 3rd April 2009, 03:03   #71
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
Good point. THis is exaclty what I am trying to get at. If I spent 65K on the service listed on post 1 (clutch, brake, ac coil, etc..) what would a simialr service of a Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla cost? More importantly would a Civic or Corolla even need service at 30K. For example would the cluch of a Corolla or Civic even show signs of getting hard/stiff at 30K?

So there are 2 points to be determined here.
1. When do other cars in this segment need to be serviced so that their performance is as good as when first bought
2. What do the same parts for other cars (Civic, Corolla, etc..) cost?

his will tell us if how much more expensive a vRS is to maintain when compared to cars costing the same. That the vRS is much more fun to drive than the Corolla (and maybe the Civic) is another argument.
I think it's quite costly Navin and premature too. My friend's Accord (the same car of which I'd posted a bill of the 35k service and that amounted to some 2200 rs) has done 60k+ kms on the stock clutch (it's driven by 5 different drivers, him, his brother, father and two drivers they employ) but needs to be changed now.

Apart from normal servicing, he's not had to spend a single penny of the car till now including tyres. Both will be done within the next month or so though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
I intend to take it for a drive on Sunday alone. Just me and the car. On the highway, on worli sea face, on marine drive. I want to know if the car will be there when I hit the brakes in an emergency or if I take a turn a bit fast (and get the tail out a bit). For this sort of testing I prefer to be alone. No distractions. Not even ICE - I usually hum to myself when in this zone.
Do let us know how it goes Navin, a lot of us would be highly interested in knowing the outcome.
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Old 3rd April 2009, 08:07   #72
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Navin,

A 65K bill when they knew they were under scrutiny and the whole lot of BHPians were aware of the issues with the dealership-Skoda. What would have been the scenario had this been any other Skoda dealer who was not aware of watchful eyes and the "undue pressure" of "customer satisfaction"? I guess that is where Harish faced the true brunt of callous attitude of Skoda.

Regards
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Old 3rd April 2009, 09:03   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
2. If Skoda wanted to replace parts without discreation they would have recomended changing the brake discs but they recommened only machining the discs so that they are useable again. Still I believe that a finer maching job could have been done. I will remove the tyres on Sunday and post more on Monday. So Autobahn-Skoda/Liyakat, watch out this time you got a real monkey on your back.
Yes the brakes skimming means they did do some diagnosis but there are a few items on the bill which I'm just not able to understand why they were changed.


Quote:
Replaced Timing Kit Rs. 2500
Toothed Belt E/S 06B109119A 1 Rs. 1998
Tensioner Roller (RS) 0B109243F 1 Rs. 2788
At 28K the full timing belt assembly including the pulley. I checked the part number on google as per your bill and it is the full timing belt along with pulley.


Quote:
Wheel Alignment Done Rs. 900
Wheel Balancing Done Rs. 500
NPN 32 Wheel balancing weight 5pcs Rs. 375
Wow. Rs.1800 for alignment and balancing. Just got it done for the Lancer from Madhus here who have some high end equipment and was charged Rs. 550 for both including weights. The Lancer like the RS needs full front and rear alignment whereas other cars usually need only front.

Quote:
Water outlet gallery cleaning done Rs. 950
Shouldn't this be part of the service. They have just cleaned the drain pipes???

Quote:
Dip Stick Ptl. 06A115611Q 1 Rs. 340
Fuel Gauge Sender unit 8L0919673E 1 Rs. 3333
A new dipstick and what happened to the fuel gauge?

Quote:
Cooling Coil R 1J2820024R 1 Rs. 13422
If the cooling reduces, this can also be cleaned rather than changed. Refer to Ishan's OHC thread. Unless there is a genuine leak.

Ofcourse we can speculate all we want but if they have done a good job and you are satisfied with the car after your weekend drive that is all that matters.

I spent Rs.14K at the 60K service and Rs. 8K at the 80K service. These were the most expensive in the entire 9 years of ownership. 14K service involved engine mount to be changed, tie rods, drive shaft and other misc stuff. The 80K service was only lubricants and accident repair.

I have the detailed service for Lancer. Mind you Lancer parts are very expensive. The fuel filter costs Rs. 1200 after reduction a few months back. Before it used to cost Rs. 1900.
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Old 3rd April 2009, 10:49   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmjgm View Post
A pressure plate cannot harden on its own. (the device which provides feel and pressure to the clutch friction plate on the flywheel to transfer power)

3) was there some lining on the old clutch plate ?
I too believe that the release bearing was probably all that needed to be changed. Yes this is still some old lining on the clutch plate - I have the old parts with me. Any BHPian is welcome to inspect the old parts, new parts and the car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iraghava View Post
I think it's quite costly Navin and premature too. Apart from normal servicing, he's not had to spend a single penny of the car till now including tyres. Both will be done within the next month or so though.Do let us know how it goes Navin, a lot of us would be highly interested in knowing the outcome.
Yes this was my final analysis. Skoda cars need to be serviced earlier than their Jap conuterparts (Honda/Toyota) and the parts are generally more expensive too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vid6639 View Post
At 28K the full timing belt assembly including the pulley. I checked the part number on google as per your bill and it is the full timing belt along with pulley.

Rs.1800 for alignment and balancing.

A new dipstick and what happened to the fuel gauge?

If the cooling reduces, this can also be cleaned rather than changed. Refer to Ishan's OHC thread. Unless there is a genuine leak.
I have the old belt. Farhan called me yesterday and I might send him the old belt for inspection.

The fuel gauge was behaving rather erratially and not showing the right fuel ammounts. Often if the tank was full it would should empty. I used to keep track based on the number of km I have driven.

My final diagnosis is as follows:
1. Skoda India (and Autobahn) needs to reconsider it's standard servicing procedures, changing only those parts that they deam really nesscary and leaving those parts they believe to have atleast 10K of life in them in the car with a note to the owner as to the expected life of the other parts. Probable Case in point the clutch plate when it might have just been the release dearing and timing belt and pulley when probably just the belt needed changing and the pulley was ok or just cleaning the old coil if there was really no leak.

2. Skoda India needs to drastically reduce the prices of it's parts. TCO (total cost of ownership) will drive away knowledgeable customers and most prospective Skoda owners are people who have done some research. Given that Skoda parts do not last as long as Toyota or Honda at the least they should be less expensive.

That said atleast unlike Harish, Kapil, Diffsoft, etc.. Liyakat at Autobahn responded to and/or returned all my calls promptly even once at 9:15pm. Even after the car has been delivered they have allwoed me a few days of testing and promise to make final adjustments to my taste (driving style).

As to their (Skoda/Autobahn) competence, the result will only be known after more extensive driving. I expect Autobahn (if they are reading this) to take full advantage of my car coming to them again for final adjustments to re-check everything just in case.
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Old 3rd April 2009, 11:08   #75
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As Skoda owners, what are our other options in Mumbai ? apart from other SC's I have seen a Bosch centre at Mahalaxmi, but havent had the time to go in an ask about what they do and how much they charge, I am also unsure about what I can get done from outside before the two year warranty expires, I think all the bad/good/expensive expieriences here about skoda might just come up with real viable and cost-efficient options available to skoda users.
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