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Old 23rd April 2012, 18:52   #1
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Default We hit another car that isn't endorsed to the legal heir. Now, who is responsible?

Hello.

This is an incident no sooner as my membership got approved.

Incident Date: 22-04-2012, Place : Tirupur, TN

Crisp: Amby 1996 model modified to latest grand type scratches Alto 2008 model at the back.


This incident tool place on saturday. My Dad on our amby was out of town to Tirupur with a temporary driver. After dropping my dad at hotel at 11:30 pm, driver took the car reverse on the one way road some 30 meter to take a cut for parking. The road was almost empty since it was 11:30 pm. Now an Alto comes on the one way and hit our amby on the bumper. The Alto's paper thin back side left passenger door went inside. We got two rear view lights on our amby to warn on-comers at back. You wont believe that there was only light bruises on our amby's fiber bumper (Ours was modified to Amby grand model). Driver called my father who was checking-in at the hotel, and he rushed to the scene. Sooner he discovered that it was wrong on part of our driver since he was illegally backing up on-way. May be we got an excuse that we are new to the town and the time was 11:30 pm in the night to back up on one way. My father exchanged numbers and assured he will pay for the damages once reaching home and both parties left the scene. Hoping that insurance will do the job and the remaining amount due shall be paid by us and the alto owner need not shell out a penny from his pocket direct.

Monday 23-04-2012 Got a call from the Alto owner

Now he says Showroom quoted 12k estimate since the door needs to be completely replaced as the dent cannot be sucked out and includes full repaint of the new door. [I will receive the pictures of the dent from the Alto owner and will post the same soon. ]
I replied like we shall pay the balance amount after claiming from the insurance so that he need not shell out any money from his pocket.

Here starts the issue:

The Alto owner says car is in name of his expired father and its been 4 months and he had not yet done name transfer / endorsement for the car and the insurance. Hence he cannot claim insurance and asks me to completely bare the cost of 12k.

I said this is ridiculous and we cannot take the responsibility for his negligence for not transferring the name of the car and I even said its illegal to drive such car. I added that I can still pay him the difference amount to be paid if the same has been processed under insurance. Now he claims that its his decision to claim or not claim insurance and my father has committed rectify the damage, so we need to pay him for the same that is 12000.

On the insurance part:

He says that his showroom insurance guy/ agent says its not possible to get claims for 1 year even if he had done name transfer. [ What I learnt from my insurance agent was that the car has to get endorsed with legal heirs within 90 days of death of the owner and after endorsement of the same, documents has to produced within 14 days to the insurer to get the insurance endorsed to new owner to facilitate future claims ]
Also Showroom insurer agent has frightened up Alto owner losing of NCB if going for claim which controversial to earlier statement that the claim cannot be processed.
The Alto owner is also reluctant to pursue the insurance formalities even now also for endorsing and then take claim. He seems to be frightened by the long process.


Now what to do?

What is our part of risk?
How to determine the insurance claim value?
How come we be trapped for non endorsing the insurance?
Do the Alto owner cannot endorse now and process the claim.


Please help out.
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Old 23rd April 2012, 19:09   #2
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Default Re: We hit other car that was not endorsed to legal heir, now who is responsible?

I am no expert but here is my take on this. Do not pay him 12k please. Its his mistake whatever may be the reason for not driving with a valid insurance. Its illegal to drive the car without a valid insurance and hence he doesn't infact stand any legal ground. You can tell him to cool off and if you want then you can pay him whatever amount you would have incase of an insurance claim. You do not have any obligation to cover up for his mistake and pay 12k. Also in case he agrees you can get the car repaired outside and bear some % of that cost. Ofcourse it might not be as good as a new door but in the circumstances would do the job for the Alto owner.
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Old 23rd April 2012, 19:17   #3
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Default Re: We hit other car that was not endorsed to legal heir, now who is responsible?

I am no expert myself on the insurance matters and cannot comment who is right and who is wrong BUT I can tell you of a small incident which may help you.

My father passed away 6 years back and we owned 2 cars then. One of them was a Santro xing which was in his name and so was the insurance. I kept driving it and one day it needed a claim - which was probably after a year so we had even renewed the policy. I just gave a check in my name for the renewal. anyways no problem claiming - I told them my dad was no more and if I remember correctly they had no problem and it was a 20000 rupees claim.

At the time of selling I think we had to provide a copy of the death certificate and the car was sold and we were paid in cash !

So you could try talking to the Alto guy as to his claiming it himself. As a goodwill gesture you could pay him what he loses out on NCB.
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Old 23rd April 2012, 19:20   #4
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Here's my take (not entirely legal analysis but part moral approach). If the fault is entirely of your driver, then hypothetically even if the alto guy had valid insurance, why should he have to claim under his own insurance and bear part of the damages, thereby adversely impacting his own no claims bonus etc.

If indeed it is your car's fault causing the accident, then you should bear the entire repair cost. If you have valid third party insurance on your car then this could reduce the exposure on your personal pocket as you could mitigate part of the cost through your own insurance.

The fact that he is driving an uninsured car is an independent offence / non compliance by him unrelated to the accident. To my mind, he is justified in asking you to pay full amount - its your lookout whether you have suitable 3rd party insurance cover to protect you against accidents that are certifiably your car's fault.

Please don't take offence - this is just my take on what I feel is the appropriate course of action.

Separately, one's father passing away is a significant event in one's life. Believe me, sometimes there are so many immediate issues on ones plate in such scenarios that matters such as vehicle endorsement do slip lower on the priority list. I don't think it should be looked at so harshly.
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Old 23rd April 2012, 19:20   #5
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Default Re: We hit other car that was not endorsed to legal heir, now who is responsible?

1) Stictly speaking - just leave that idiot alone. He has no case, 1st of all he was driving a car that was not his legally. Even if he goes to police, they will ask the owner to be present to file a case!! It was purely his mistake.

2) Out of humanity you can check with a local tinker and offer to repair it locally, may cost 3-4K only! Or check with your local scrap dealer for a alto rear door and get it repainted and close the case.

I would do (1) after knowing his weak point - dont even know to transfer ownership upon death!

Last edited by svsantosh : 23rd April 2012 at 19:22.
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Old 23rd April 2012, 19:47   #6
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Default Re: We hit other car that was not endorsed to legal heir, now who is responsible?

@jeganatu,
My two cents. We do not live in a perfect world. Doing reverse in an empty one-way lane at midnight is no crime. Having said that, unless your driver was doing the reversing of the car at a high speeds (which I doubt), I wouldn't put too much blame on him. I believe your car has rear lights that work when one is in reverse gear. If that is true, then the majority of the fault lies with the Alto owner - he should be paying more attention on the road.

Now if the Alto owner goes overhead with his claims, just ignore. His best chance was right there, on the road. I understand your father has committed to him, but that was on the understanding that the owner would claim insurance, which is quite valid.

And as for the damage, he can also opt for a third party garage to reduce the costs. My advice - stick to your earlier stand.
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Old 23rd April 2012, 20:04   #7
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Default Re: We hit other car that was not endorsed to legal heir, now who is responsible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post
1) Stictly speaking - just leave that idiot alone. He has no case, 1st of all he was driving a car that was not his legally. Even if he goes to police, they will ask the owner to be present to file a case!! It was purely his mistake.

2) Out of humanity you can check with a local tinker and offer to repair it locally, may cost 3-4K only! Or check with your local scrap dealer for a alto rear door and get it repainted and close the case.

I would do (1) after knowing his weak point - dont even know to transfer ownership upon death!
+1 to that. The Alto guy can definitely NOT file a case. Now that it is not even possible to claim the insurance, make an offer to get it repaired at a local garage rather than an authorized workshop(Humanity reasons only). You could also get him to rope in 50% of the repair cost citing "contributed-negligence" as the reason.

If he does not budge just LEAVE HIM ALONE!!
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Old 23rd April 2012, 20:16   #8
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Default Re: We hit other car that was not endorsed to legal heir, now who is responsible?

My two cents.
In my opinion you are liable for paying compensation if a 'court' finds you guilty of negligent/rash driving. Depending on the witness accounts, the court may decide you to pay the full or the balance amount after claiming insurance. That ofcourse depends on the extent of your negligence and if it is proved beyond doubt that the other person was not at all to be blamed.

Normally in case of accidents no body wants to face the added jhamela of going to a court n all so they settle it amongst as they deem sufficient. But legally, you are supposed to file an FIR and move to the courts if you want compensation from the other guy.

In your case, you did nt file and FIR and the other guy is not in position to go to the court, as legally he should not be driving the car on a public road and looses his right to claim compensation for anything that happens to his car, on top of it he himself carries the risk of inviting a hefty penalty on himself.

Still since your Dad has commited, make it clear to him that you will pay only what would have been the extra amount after he had claimed insurance. Not a penny more.
If he insists ask him to go to the court and tell him you are ready to settle the matter as the court deems fit. Since you are not 'Legally' Liable to pay any compensation unless the court orders you to.

This is as per my understanding, however I am no lawyer, so please take it with a pinch of salt. I am ready to stand corrected if am worng
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Old 23rd April 2012, 20:22   #9
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Default Re: We hit another car that isn't endorsed to the legal heir. Now, who is responsible

If it was your driver mistake, and you have valid insurance cover (third party), I think you should just get his car repaired through your insurance. I believe your father already offered to bear the repair costs. It probably doesn't need a court visit at all. You just have to convince the other party that you will user your insurance to get the car repaired.
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Old 23rd April 2012, 20:25   #10
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Default Re: We hit other car that was not endorsed to legal heir, now who is responsible?

Since my father was not there at the incident, from the crowds point of view they declared its was mistake on our cars' part. So let us consider as it is... Its our mistake. First lets wait for the picture of the dent from the Alto owner and then estimate whether can it be tinkered out or will the door needs replacement. Cost of new door is Rs.5350/- as per my local authorized part dealer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
Its illegal to drive the car without a valid insurance and hence he doesn't infact stand any legal ground. You can tell him to cool off and if you want then you can pay him whatever amount you would have incase of an insurance claim..
Yes thats the point I told him over phone conversation. Also pointed out what if he hit a person and cause causality driving without endorsement even if he did not commit mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vkochar View Post

So you could try talking to the Alto guy as to his claiming it himself. As a goodwill gesture you could pay him what he loses out on NCB.
I am ready to pay due amount after insurance plus his NCB too which will roughly works out to 10-15% of declared value of car the following year..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axe77 View Post
Here's my take (not entirely legal analysis but part moral approach). If the fault is entirely of your driver, then hypothetically even if the alto guy had valid insurance, why should he have to claim under his own insurance and bear part of the damages, 1)thereby adversely impacting his own no claims bonus etc.

If indeed it is your car's fault causing the accident, then you should bear the entire repair cost. If you have valid third party insurance on your car then this could reduce the exposure on your personal pocket as you could mitigate part of the cost through your own insurance.

2)The fact that he is driving an uninsured car is an independent offence / non compliance by him unrelated to the accident. To my mind, he is justified in asking you to pay full amount - its your lookout whether you have suitable 3rd party insurance cover to protect you against accidents that are certifiably your car's fault.

Please don't take offence - this is just my take on what I feel is the appropriate course of action.

Separately, one's father passing away is a significant event in one's life. Believe me, sometimes there are so many immediate issues on ones plate in such scenarios that matters such as vehicle endorsement do slip lower on the 3: priority list. I don't think it should be looked at so harshly.
1: I am ready to pay his NCB!
2: What if any person dies ? He will be held responsible for having invalid insurance right, so he should pocket out from his own right.?
3: My claim is same, what if a person had died in an accident? Thats why people say endorse your vehicle as soon if there any such death incident of owner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post
1) Stictly speaking - just leave that idiot alone. He has no case, 1st of all he was driving a car that was not his legally. Even if he goes to police, they will ask the owner to be present to file a case!! It was purely his mistake.

2) Out of humanity you can check with a local tinker and offer to repair it locally, may cost 3-4K only! Or check with your local scrap dealer for a alto rear door and get it repainted and close the case.

I would do (1) after knowing his weak point - dont even know to transfer ownership upon death!
I am located at Madurai, So I am not in a situation to get the car to the local dealer n get an estimate for the same, and as you know in these cases owners prefer showroom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjatalli View Post
@jeganatu,
My two cents. We do not live in a perfect world. Doing reverse in an empty one-way lane at midnight is no crime. Having said that, unless your driver was doing the reversing of the car at a high speeds (which I doubt), I wouldn't put too much blame on him. I believe your car has rear lights that work when one is in reverse gear. If that is true, then the majority of the fault lies with the Alto owner - he should be paying more attention on the road.

Now if the Alto owner goes overhead with his claims, just ignore. His best chance was right there, on the road. I understand your father has committed to him, but that was on the understanding that the owner would claim insurance, which is quite valid.

And as for the damage, he can also opt for a third party garage to reduce the costs. My advice - stick to your earlier stand.
Even if it was my drivers fault, a Reversing car is always slow and with white warning lights. Since I was not there in the spot, I am unable to support my driver. And I am going to stick with my decision of paying only difference of claim plus NCB if its found a necessary one.
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Old 23rd April 2012, 20:36   #11
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Default Re: We hit another car that isn't endorsed to the legal heir. Now, who is responsible

Quote:
Originally Posted by vineethvazhayil View Post
You just have to convince the other party that you will user your insurance to get the car repaired.
I think Third party insurance claim is fault based, ie it has to be proved that the insurer was at fault. That involves filing an FIR. Which the alto guy cant as he does nt have a valid insurance himself. So even if you want to use your third party insurance claim, it would require a legal process. Which would involve a risk of penalty to the other guy himself.

Tell him if he wants full compensation from you then you ll have to file for third party insurance claim and that may involve a legal process and a subsequent penalty on him for driving a vehicle without Insurance. Is he OK with it?
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Old 23rd April 2012, 20:37   #12
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Default Re: We hit another car that isn't endorsed to the legal heir. Now, who is responsible

There was an accident. His car is damaged due to your drivers fault (for the sake of argument).


As per law either of your insurance should cover the damages.

Your insurance would have covered everything for him, but he is not willing to go to court.

His insurance + your contribution would have paid everything. But he cannot claim as his insurance is invalid.

You had agreed to pay for any loss if he claimed his own insurance. That might have been approximately 3-4 thousand rupees.

Pay NO more than this.

He is not entitled to anything more on both legal or moral grounds.

btw, just curios, does he have a valid driving license.
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Old 24th April 2012, 09:31   #13
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Default Re: We hit another car that isn't endorsed to the legal heir. Now, who is responsible

Assuming its your drivers fault, its your third party insurance that should pay the costs of repair. I believe this would be irrespective of whether the other party has valid insurance or not.
Also if NCB was highest then its not only 1st year NCB that the alto owner will loose but he will loose a specific % for following years as well if he had to claim through his own insurance.
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Old 24th April 2012, 12:32   #14
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Default Re: We hit another car that isn't endorsed to the legal heir. Now, who is responsible

Interesting topic has been touched here. Claiming third party insurance for repair of another car due to fault of owner's car. How do we calim the same. Is the process simple?
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Old 24th April 2012, 13:09   #15
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Default Re: We hit another car that isn't endorsed to the legal heir. Now, who is responsible

My Take:

As your driver was at fault, pay him in cash.. what is right, and what the incident really deserves.

That said, if he does not agree, ask him to go to court. He will get the money from your insurance, after a year or so.
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