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Old 24th February 2016, 23:57   #16
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Default re: Death to 3rd party in accident, but car still not transferred by new owner. Now what?

So I researched a bit and ended up here:

http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1282718/
& this http://www.legalserviceindia.com/art...Insurance.html

and this is the gist of it:
Insurance Companies have been allowed no other defence except the following:
(1) Use of vehicle for hire and reward not permit to ply such vehicle.
(2) For organizing racing and speed testing;
(3) Use of transport vehicle not allowed by permit.
(4) Driver not holding valid driving license or have been disqualified for holding such license.
(5) Policy taken is void as the same is obtained by non-disclosure of material fact.
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Old 25th February 2016, 00:16   #17
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Default re: Death to 3rd party in accident, but car still not transferred by new owner. Now what?

After the sale letter & delivery note is given, IMO it absolves the seller from any further responsibility as he has no control over the vehicle / asset after delivery.

As Chetan puts it, (Edit) seller has to notify the RTO within a reasonable period after sale, as that is his duty anyway.

The asset / car is said to be in the ownership & control of the buyer even if the registration formalities haven't yet been done.

Legally, the asset is sold & there is also a receipt & delivery note for the same. Hence the buyer is responsible towards the claims of the 'victim'. Since the buyer has insurance, it's the companies responsibility to honour the 'victims' claim (+ they've insured it knowingly that the transfer hasn't been registered with the RTO yet).

The buyer must complete the registration document submission formalities & provide the RTO receipt attested (class III gazetted officer is OK, along with affidavit) copy to either the cops or in the court with a promise to submit the registration documents after receiving them from RTO.

So the vehicle can be taken back.

My 2.

Last edited by GrammarNazi : 25th February 2016 at 00:20. Reason: Edit : seller, sorry, not buyer!.
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Old 25th February 2016, 00:43   #18
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Default re: Death to 3rd party in accident, but car still not transferred by new owner. Now what?

Disregard the previous post and read this :

Quote:
Insurance company liable to pay compensation till vehicle owner’s name is in register


The Supreme Court held recently held in the case of Pushpa @ Leela & Ors. Versus Shakuntala & Ors that the insurance company will be liable to pay compensation for road accident death even if the owner had sold the vehicle so long as his name is the official register. The previous owner might have handed over possession of the vehicle to the buyer, but he and his insurer continued to be liable to pay compensation to third parties if the insurance policy is in his name. In this case, Pushpa vs Shakuntala, the owner sold the truck to another person. But the vehicle was insured by Oriental Insurance Company in the previous owner’s name. There was an accident killing three persons. Their dependents moved the motor accident claims tribunal against Oriental and the previous owner. The tribunal and the Himachal Pradesh high court held that the previous owner had no liability as he was no longer the owner of the vehicle. They ruled that the new owner alone was liable to pay. The dependents appealed to the Supreme Court. The insurance company argued in the Supreme Court that the liability should entirely be that of the new owner as the old owner had lost control of the vehicle after the sale. Reversing this view, the Supreme Court made the insurance company liable to pay the compensation amount.
Full article here : http://taxguru.in/corporate-law/insu...#disqus_thread

Last edited by Switch : 25th February 2016 at 00:44.
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Old 25th February 2016, 09:15   #19
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Default re: Death to 3rd party in accident, but car still not transferred by new owner. Now what?

as per the article, the new owner is liable and the insurance does not cover it as he was not party to the agreement
whatever he tried to save by re registering, he will have to pay a lot more!

Last edited by greenhorn : 25th February 2016 at 09:21.
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Old 25th February 2016, 10:21   #20
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Default re: Death to 3rd party in accident, but car still not transferred by new owner. Now what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
as per the article, the new owner is liable and the insurance does not cover it as he was not party to the agreement
whatever he tried to save by re registering, he will have to pay a lot more!
No no. Supreme court reversed the decision and made insurer pay and not the new/last owner. Read the last line carefully.

Last edited by GTO : 25th February 2016 at 11:04. Reason: Removing excessive dots (.....)
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Old 25th February 2016, 11:13   #21
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Default re: Death to 3rd party in accident, but car still not transferred by new owner. Now what?

ah ok - that was the insurance co's argument
Saw the SC judgment in para 16
Quote:
compensation amount is equally realisable from respondent no.3, Oriental Insurance Company Ltd. and it is directed to make full payment of the compensation amount as determined by the Claims Tribunal to the appellants within two months from the date of this judgment.
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Old 25th February 2016, 11:15   #22
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Default re: Death to 3rd party in accident, but car still not transferred by new owner. Now what?

Quite a predicament. God bless the soul of the deceased.

See, there are two factors at play here:

1. If it was a regular incident, the previous owner would have perhaps co-operated, but because there was a fatality, there is no way the previous owner will co-operate in any which way. And for what? It is entirely the new owner's fault of not transferring the car.

I'm sure the previous owner has many ways to prove that the car has been sold (delivery note, copy of documents, payment proof, emails etc.).

If I was the previous owner of the car, no way in hell would I lie. I would have my lawyers send letters to the Police with full factual details on the car's sale. Recently sold my Civic and sent notifications to BOTH RTOs in Mumbai city. Better be safe than sorry.

2. Even if you have a straight-forward claim, insurance companies try to wiggle their way out of paying. It's the nature of the business unfortunately. Now that they have this technicality of the car not being transferred, they will fight you tooth & nail.

Remember, they have full-time lawyers on their payroll for exactly this purpose. They'll drag it till the Supreme Court level - question is, will the car owner? Lawyer fees, time etc. all add to the $$$ & effort.

By the way, are you the car owner in question? I guess you bought an i20 2 years back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Switch View Post
Just came back after finalizing the deal. There was some confusion w.r.t. to price and make. Its a 2012 Aug and finalized the deal at 4.9. Paid 10k advance. Would be taking the delivery on 4th or so.

And yes its a diesel sports
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Old 25th February 2016, 11:37   #23
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Default Re: Death to 3rd party in accident, but car still not transferred by new owner. Now what?

Don't take ownership of this case. What if this car was used for any illegal activities before?! It can just land you in bigger trouble later.

Better to reveal the sale details to police/RTO and try to get out of this situation with clean hands.
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Old 25th February 2016, 12:43   #24
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Default Re: Death to 3rd party in accident, but car still not transferred by new owner. Now what?

Coming from a claims background.. I can answer these pretty well

Calm down.. there's ABSOLUTELY no need to panic!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Switch View Post
Now the car was not transfered but the person who bought the car got it insured. The driver of the car has surrendered to the police:
Is the new insurance in your name or the owner? Either the case may be, its a case of TP liability and once the driver has surrendered, you need NOT worry as the liability to settle at MACT do stand on Insurers (Come What May!!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by speedmiester View Post

I also have kept a reference of the NOC issued by the RTO for registration in a different RTO. This is just for our peace of mind.
That's your defence in case the things would have gone berseck! Chill!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Switch View Post
if insurance company denies the claim. Is there a place where I can read the fine print as I have talked to quite a few lawyers and insurance agents and nobody has a clear understanding.
Trust me, once the insurance company issues a policy (irrespective of the name of registered owner), the TP (and OD, if any!) automatically become their liability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Switch View Post
Disregard the previous post and read this :



Full article here : http://taxguru.in/corporate-law/insu...#disqus_thread
There are lot many options rather than approaching consumer court.. Insurance Ombudsman is in your rescue.. Provided the liability falls onto you (which am sure is NOT going to happen!)

Hope it helps.. do contact in case you need further insights..

Last edited by panky12345 : 25th February 2016 at 12:44.
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Old 25th February 2016, 14:30   #25
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Default Re: Death to 3rd party in accident, but car still not transferred by new owner. Now what?

Yes I bought an i20 but its not about that car. I got that transferred then and there only. I definitely need help on the matter though.
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Old 25th February 2016, 18:59   #26
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Default Re: Death to 3rd party in accident, but car still not transferred by new owner. Now what?

So after talking to lots of lawyers, insurance agents and dealers I have come to the conclusion that nobody has a clear idea. I am going with the facts and I am giving the complete statement and not hiding any facts. It might become tricky later but I am definitely not owing somebody else's fault.

The complete story is that my dad sold a car 2 years back and it was further sold in 3 different hands but nobody got it registered. My dad contacted the original buyer after a month of selling the car and asked about the transfer and he claimed that it has already been done and he need not worry about it and he will pass me the papers next time he comes visiting my city. That was the last conversation he had with the dealer. Then after 2 years of selling the car Police came knocking on my door. When we made them aware of the situation they told me to trace the driver and I did. The driver has surrendered in the police station and I am being asked to my my official written statement. The middlemen(dealers) are saying that the insurer will revoke the claim if I write I sold the car and rather I should give a statement that yes the car is mine and was being driven by the driver as he had taken the car for some work. I am definitely not keen on doing that. The police are cooperating as they can see that I am being dragged in all this but they can't help me. The chap who died was driving under the influence of alcohol but I am not sure whether that was mentioned in the postmortem report or not. I am not going with a lie to the court as I am sure that will come back one day to haunt me. This too can go south for me but I at least know this will mostly be all monetary. I don't want any harassment from the deceased and I want to keep all the concerned people in the loop.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 25th February 2016 at 19:31. Reason: Typo.
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Old 25th February 2016, 19:06   #27
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Default Re: Death to 3rd party in accident, but car still not transferred by new owner. Now what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Switch View Post
So after talking to lots of lawyers, insurance agents and dealers I have come to the conclusion that nobody has a clear idea. I am going with the facts and I am giving the complete statement and not hiding any facts. It might become tricky later but I am definitely not owing somebody else's fault.
You have already suffered enough, stick to your guns and do not give in to the dealers/buyer.
Better get out of this mess now rather than later.
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Old 26th February 2016, 02:22   #28
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Default Re: Death to 3rd party in accident, but car still not transferred by new owner. Now what?

WRT OP the point is to get the deceased persons family some money.

This needs old owner and new owners cooperation.

Technically the old owner can't wash his/her hands off the matter. It's Totally his fault that the ownership wasn't transferred.

Both new and old owner have to appoint a lawyer. Make a statement with all the details as above.

Take a copy of the FIR.

I must mention an important thing. In case of injuries without death, get the hospital or clinic to give an RTA (road traffic accident) form.

It's a single page form needing a thousand details. Without that RTA, no cop will register an FIR.

Unsure: I think that's needed for death cases too. Kindly check.

On all visits to the cop station carry a 500 rupee note with you. It's considered auspicious. Be sure to lose it in the station. Confucius recommend it.

Submit all those papers in duplicate and notarized to insurance company.

All insurance companies will initially deny the claim stating gaseous excuses. ALL cases are first denied.

Now your lawyer and the victims lawyer (hopefully the family can afford; else 2 car owners pay for it) must threaten to drag the insurance company to court.

99% of time they will pay the money.

In the 1% they don't pay, approach a friendly TV or paper reporter. Buy them gifts and ask for help.

You should get the money now.

If the insurance company is thick skinned, submit a complaint to the ombudsman. That's like an arbiter for Indian insurance companies.

It's a 3 month headache for everyone.

Good luck.

Moral:

As owners, while selling, take 90% advance. However, DO NOT handover the vehicle till new owner gets the papers transferred.

RTO does not need to physically see the vehicle for a name change.

Take a copy.

Important: Verify the same via SMS. All states have this facility or its equivalent.

In the vehicle handover papers, after the name has been changed, do mention the time. From that instant the vehicle is not your responsibility.

That same form has space for 1 witnesses signature. Get that also.

Last edited by hangover : 26th February 2016 at 02:43.
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Old 26th February 2016, 06:24   #29
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Default Re: Death to 3rd party in accident, but car still not transferred by new owner. Now what?

I have already made up my mind to help the deceased family. I am just not facing them in person as of now till the time the vehicle driver gets a bail from the court. The simple thing is that if I approach them now they will definitely take me(or my known) to be the driver while and it would be a hard time convincing them I am not.

Yes I totally accept that it is my fault that the car ownership wasn't transferred but at the same time the way the dealer made us believe that it is already done we were quite confident by his words. Infact my Dad's first condition while selling the car was the immediate transfer. The problems is that the dealer is a real smart person who is not willing to cooperate as he is under the impression that he is not any party to the case. Is there a way to drag his @ss to the court. He has given a statement in the Police station that he bought and further sold the car, while he hasn't mentioned anything about the transfer of ownership.
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Old 26th February 2016, 13:41   #30
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Default Re: Death to 3rd party in accident, but car still not transferred by new owner. Now what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Switch View Post
.......
Yes I totally accept that it is my fault that the car ownership wasn't transferred.........
Don't beat yourself up about it. While there was lack of due diligence on your part during the sale in maintaining paperwork, the other party is equally at fault.

Quote:
.......dealer is a real smart person who is not willing to cooperate as he is under the impression that he is not any party to the case. Is there a way to drag his @ss to the court. He has given a statement in the Police station that he bought and further sold the car, while he hasn't mentioned anything about the transfer of ownership.
There are hardly any ethical ones around these days, unfortunate but true.

That being said, going after him specifically will only add to your troubles, esp. if the car is in your father's name as cases tend to drag. It's good for you to come clean on the legal side, but it would be best for you to stick to the facts and focus on absolving yourselves of legal responsibility. Teaching someone a lesson in India - even if you're right and they aren't - can get real messy real fast, stay away from the urge.

State the facts as they are (which would include the dealer anyway), support with whatever documentation you have and get yourselves out of the legal mess. Helping the deceased's family is very noble of you.

Consider the whole episode a lesson learnt, and move on. The dealer will find his karma by himself.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 26th February 2016 at 13:53.
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