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Old 4th June 2009, 22:43   #16
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Default Something is definitely circumspect.

ON the premise that you did not drive the car this is what could have transpired.
The car was towed to the service center. The sump and strainer was replaced and then without hand turning the engine for a few revolutions without starting; the mechanic took a chance and started the engine. This resulted in a broken shaft due to possible slip of teeth of the toothed timing belt and camshaft toothed wheel. If the shaft was to break it would have broken before you had the time to switch of the engine. SInce the shaft is broken I can bet that the pistons and valves are also gone off shape as this engine of yours is an interference type engine. It is impossible to break the shaft by running the car with out oil. Before the shaft breaks the bearing would give way and score marks on the bearing surface will be proof of the same. The Maruti people are trying to cover up a bungling mechanics fault.

The other possibility is that you are being made a Bakra to replace the shaft assembly for a friend of the mechanic who is doing up your car. Get ready to replace the valves and the guides too.

If the guys at Maruti say that the valves and guides are fine even after a broken camshaft I can bet that the broken camshaft is from another engine that belongs to the mechanics friends. I can vouch 100 percent on this. Why I say so with such authority is that I too was guilty in my younger days of getting parts for my car from totalled cars at a pittance. This mechanic friend of mine also used to swap parts from in warranty cars and this is happening at Skoda and TATA in a big way these days as you all are aware off. As a stop gap arrangement substandard parts are being used by Skoda possibly made in China.
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Old 4th June 2009, 22:50   #17
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
This is definitely not an oil leak damage! cam shaft broken in two!! More like the sudden stopping putting heavy load on the cam (which might have had a hairline fracture/manufacturing defect) and breaking it into two!

Its a scary pic!
Even I was shocked to see such damage due to going just above a stone ! What you said about the sudden stopping and putting heavy load is what was told by the service advisor. He said that the cam at the centre had expanded and at the edges were being forced to move hence resulting in a crack. What I am surprised is this is something which has no chance of escape. It seems if you hit a oil sump hard there seems to be no way to avoid an engine damage! Or I may be extremely unlucky to have multiple factors going wrong at the same time.
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Old 4th June 2009, 23:13   #18
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Originally Posted by drpullockaran View Post
ON the premise that you did not drive the car this is what could have transpired.
The car was towed to the service center. The sump and strainer was replaced and then without hand turning the engine for a few revolutions without starting; the mechanic took a chance and started the engine. This resulted in a broken shaft due to possible slip of teeth of the toothed timing belt and camshaft toothed wheel. If the shaft was to break it would have broken before you had the time to switch of the engine. SInce the shaft is broken I can bet that the pistons and valves are also gone off shape as this engine of yours is an interference type engine. It is impossible to break the shaft by running the car with out oil. Before the shaft breaks the bearing would give way and score marks on the bearing surface will be proof of the same. The Maruti people are trying to cover up a bungling mechanics fault.

The other possibility is that you are being made a Bakra to replace the shaft assembly for a friend of the mechanic who is doing up your car. Get ready to replace the valves and the guides too.

If the guys at Maruti say that the valves and guides are fine even after a broken camshaft I can bet that the broken camshaft is from another engine that belongs to the mechanics friends. I can vouch 100 percent on this. Why I say so with such authority is that I too was guilty in my younger days of getting parts for my car from totalled cars at a pittance. This mechanic friend of mine also used to swap parts from in warranty cars and this is happening at Skoda and TATA in a big way these days as you all are aware off. As a stop gap arrangement substandard parts are being used by Skoda possibly made in China.

@ drpullockaran - I definitely did not drive the car an for an inch after the accident. The scenario you have explained is scary and possible. However, right from the start Spectra, Thane was insisting me to involve Maruti customer care and Royal Sundaram customer care in the picture. If it was their fault i doubt they would want to involve other authorities. i will go to the service centre and take more pictures of the cam bearings etc. Are there any other picture that you think I should take ?
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Old 4th June 2009, 23:37   #19
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I will second what drpullockaran has written. Either their mechanic is at fault or the broken camshaft is from some friends car. This is not a new thing with dealers, they've been known to change parts from cars for decades now.
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Old 5th June 2009, 07:38   #20
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Originally Posted by deutscheafrikar View Post
I will second what drpullockaran has written. Either their mechanic is at fault or the broken camshaft is from some friends car. This is not a new thing with dealers, they've been known to change parts from cars for decades now.
Nigel
A +1 to that.

Also, maybe they were looking for another Swift Desire to replace the mechanics friends cam. very probable and scary but true.
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Old 5th June 2009, 08:57   #21
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Don, one very important question: Did you have to turn off the engine after this accident? (Was the engine still ticking over smoothly)?
Or did the engine stop by itself?
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Old 5th June 2009, 11:11   #22
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When everyone is talking of the technical parts of the car and engine, let me talk on the subject which matter the most for me and that is Insurance.

Sirji let me tell you how this claim can be payable!!! Yes according to me this claim is payable.

Word which is used to refuse your claim is “consequential loss”; this is not the consequential loss let me tell you how? The word you can see in your policy document. (Please read your policy document and you will understand this term better.) If you are going to some business meeting for some business deal and because of the accident you cannot reach that meeting and have to face some monitory loss – This is called consequential loss and not this loss, this is a part of same accident.

Make the surveyor understand that if a part is broken in the engine that car is not in a driving condition at all you cannot drive the car if that is the case, and at the same time you are not mad that you will replace this part standing on the road and then claim for insurance. Insurance company is not willing to pay your claim and noting else.

I myself stay in Mulund and your car is just 5 K.M. away from my place. Tell me any time I can come and make this logic understand to any surveyor.
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Old 5th June 2009, 11:55   #23
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@aaggoswami - There is no way such a failure can happen due to sudden drop in oil pressure insite the camshaft chamber. And no this is not a result of sudden over heating also. If a sudden braking like this case can cause such a damage to the camshaft that only points to a manufacturing defect - because such sudden braking are dime a dozen in a country like ours. And no the stone hitting hard cannot send a shock to the camshaft and break it - unless the camshaft was already weak.
Yes it is very much possible to establish that it was a manufacturing defect. I think the right test would be a metallographic or crystallographic analysis of the shaft around the failed ends to establish if the part was properly manufactured.

@Don - the bearings I referred to are the ones on which this shaft sits - one of them would have been in the area you have marked in Red. As @Headers said, these parts are heat treated and are designed to withstand much more abuse - they are designed not to fail in this manner unless you let the engine run for a few minutes without any oil. In fact the appearnce of other components very clearly suggests that the failure was indeed due to an inherent manufacturing defect that surfaced as a result of this accident.

IMHO, this is an accident related damage with the root cause being a manufacturing defect and can be easily established by proper analysis. There is no way you should pay for it.
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Old 5th June 2009, 12:04   #24
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this might be a dealer`s fault. A stone hit cannot break the cam shaft. i do agree that the oil sump can get damanged and can have leaks but breaking of a cam shaft is highly unlike. Even if all the oil is drained from the engine, this situation occur when you drive for a long time without a single drop of oil. But as you said that you stopped immediately and did not move an inch then this issue is not your fault.

I believe the dealer has done something wrong and this resulted in breaking of the shaft. now, he is trying to put this between you and the insurance company. They tend to take advantage of the situation when insurance companies are involved. One of my friend works for Bajaj Allianz and he has faced this kind of issues. The dealers try to make the best out of the situation. You pay or the insurance company pay, its a win-win situation for the dealer and that covers his fault.

Abbas.
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Old 5th June 2009, 12:14   #25
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Whether its the dealer's fault or not, the insurance company must bloody well pay the claim in full.

If they decline, Get them to decline the claim in writing and send a complaint to the insurance ombudsman in your city. If this does not work, next remedy is consumer court.
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Old 5th June 2009, 12:22   #26
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Originally Posted by spadival View Post
Whether its the dealer's fault or not, the insurance company must bloody well pay the claim in full.

If they decline, Get them to decline the claim in writing and send a complaint to the insurance ombudsman in your city. If this does not work, next remedy is consumer court.
That`s exactly what i am trying to say. The dealers think "Since insurance is paying for it, why not cover up our tracks as well"

Going to the ombuds person is a good idea, they act fair and unbiased.
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Old 5th June 2009, 12:52   #27
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Thanks a lot for you support and knowledge guys. Till now i was just trying to make the insurance guys pay up but it seems its the Spectra guys which are suspect! I could'nt go there today since I stay near powai but am surely going there tomorrow morning. Will get an update with more pics and a possible damage estimate.

@ rjvora_2000 - Tried PM you but its not working. I have sent you a mail.

@ anupmathur - The engine did not sound any different when i shut it off. I shut it the the moment i stopped the car and it was perfectly normal then.

@ cnaganathan - I will get the pics of the bearings by tomorrow.

Last edited by ThE_DoN : 5th June 2009 at 13:03.
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Old 5th June 2009, 19:17   #28
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The cam shaft certainly cannot break in this manner by merely the stone. There is more to this. Try getting a second opinion , take a trusted mechanic with you ; the dealership cannot refuse you.

Did you manage to find the stone which was the culprit? I would be interested in seeing a picture if u took one. May make more sense if you have one.
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Old 5th June 2009, 19:45   #29
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Definitely the cam shaft does not lie in the oil sump area to break like that!

How can a damaged sump can break a cam shaft which is at the top of the engine, while the cast-aluminum casing not showing any physical damages?

Get a technical review done by a good engineer.

If you ask me, either there was some manufacturing defect or it was damaged due to other reasons (mechanic's handling), or at the worst case scenario it may be even not from you car.

Please get an experienced engineer or mechanic give a comment on this post vehicle inspection.

Wish you car a speedy & decent recovery.
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Old 5th June 2009, 19:49   #30
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Originally Posted by ThE_DoN View Post
@ anupmathur - The engine did not sound any different when i shut it off. I shut it the the moment i stopped the car and it was perfectly normal then.
That means the camshaft had certainly not broken till then!
After which the car was towed away.
The finger points to the dealership, as others have also said. I would hate to guess how they managed to do this!
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