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Old 4th July 2011, 14:27   #136
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Rear glass not going down all the way, does not seem to be a design flaw. Even if it is, well, live with it. The world aint perfect my friend. You cant have your cake and eat it too!

As far as design flaw is concerned, Skoda ORVM (right side) is not Convex. That is a design flaw.
Indicator/wiper stalks on the other side is hardly a flaw. Its a design.

I have a Skoda and a Swift, and NEVER do I get confused on the stalk placement.
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Old 4th July 2011, 14:33   #137
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Originally Posted by Swanand Inamdar View Post
Indicator/wiper stalks on the other side is hardly a flaw. Its a design.
If I may, I will qualify your statement a little. It is a cost-cutting design. Fords have the indicators stick on the left-hand side (and the wiper stick on the right). This saves FoMoCo to design, rather modify, console sticks for two different markets ó the left-hand and the right-hand drive markets. These sticks are used in both the markets as it is and saves considerable money for the company.
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Old 4th July 2011, 14:43   #138
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by Swanand Inamdar View Post
Indicator/wiper stalks on the other side is hardly a flaw. Its a design.

I have a Skoda and a Swift, and NEVER do I get confused on the stalk placement.
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Originally Posted by Gooney View Post
If I may, I will qualify your statement a little. It is a cost-cutting design. Fords have the indicators stick on the left-hand side (and the wiper stick on the right). This saves FoMoCo to design, rather modify, console sticks for two different markets ó the left-hand and the right-hand drive markets. These sticks are used in both the markets as it is and saves considerable money for the company.
Agree with Swanand here. I think we kind of assume that the Japanese design is the right one.

India is not the only right-hand market for manufacturers like Skoda, Ford etc. And I donít think they will survive for long with such a design flaw in markets like UK, SE Asia etc.
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Old 4th July 2011, 16:38   #139
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by Gooney View Post
I will qualify your statement a little. It is a cost-cutting design.
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Originally Posted by Swanand Inamdar View Post
Indicator/wiper stalks on the other side is hardly a flaw. Its a design.

This has been discussed to death, but still.. In INDIA, which configuration is correct?. Whats the criteria for that decision, and where can we find it?.

For the sake of argument, I say Ford is correct and MS is wrong. How can one prove me wrong? Just because olden 800 and Ambys came with that configuration, and one is used to it, doesn't mean that is right.

What I mean to say is, its just a design, and not cost cutting. Like some having the tacho on left and speedo on right and vice versa. You cant really argue with that.

Last edited by dhanushs : 4th July 2011 at 16:40.
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Old 4th July 2011, 16:56   #140
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Originally Posted by Daewood
Can you believe that a car that costs almost the price of a 2BHK doesn't have body coloured door/ boot handles?

It's the Merc C-class Executive variant.
@ Daewood, you are mistaken dude. I own Merc C-Class Executive 220 CDI and she came with body colored Door/ Boot handles.
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Old 4th July 2011, 17:12   #141
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Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
This has been discussed to death, but still.. In INDIA, which configuration is correct?. Whats the criteria for that decision, and where can we find it?.
I am not sure if there are regulations / rules regarding indicator / wiper console stick placements. I take your word for it. But even though there are no rules, there is the question of the ease of use ó I believe anthropometrics and ergionomics are the words. The indicator stick, being the most commonly used between the two (indicator and wiper blades), is better placed on the RHS of the steering column, as most people tend to be right-handed.

Also look at the OEM's country of origin (LHD or RHD) and the cost cutting measure, namely toggled placement of the indicator and wiper stick. Ford, GM indicator sticks make sense for LHD cars, but not for RHDs.
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Old 4th July 2011, 17:20   #142
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
This has been discussed to death, but still.. In INDIA, which configuration is correct?. Whats the criteria for that decision, and where can we find it?.

For the sake of argument, I say Ford is correct and MS is wrong. How can one prove me wrong? Just because olden 800 and Ambys came with that configuration, and one is used to it, doesn't mean that is right.
.
To me it appears that having indicator stack on the right will make more sense in RHD vehicles since it permits simultaneous operation of steering and turn indicators with the right hand while the left hand would be free to shift gears. While I am now used to the skoda config, I still miss flipping indicators with right hand fingers while downshifting with left hand.
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Old 4th July 2011, 18:26   #143
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
Agree with Swanand here. I think we kind of assume that the Japanese design is the right one.

India is not the only right-hand market for manufacturers like Skoda, Ford etc. And I donít think they will survive for long with such a design flaw in markets like UK, SE Asia etc.
Hundreds of time discussed to death ,this subject.
We do not assume, it IS the correct configuration.
Not only Japanese, look at the koreans,mainly Hyundai. South Korea is a LHD market so is many of other markets of Hyundai.
So shouldn't they have also put LHD control stalks. No, in India they put it the correct way.
Chevrolet India,except for the Tavera used to put the control stalks in LHD, but in the latest Cruze and Beat they have rectified it. For what?
Also when we import a car the control stalks should be for RHD.
In conclusion, the placement of control stalks and speedometer tachometer placements are NOT designs per se, they are design flaws done to reduce cost.Period.
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Old 4th July 2011, 19:08   #144
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

I went through this entire thread in one sitting an I have to say .... HOOO BOYYY.

Almost all car manufacturers, it seems are evil creatures with horns on their heads and a tail with an arrow head end.

Of the 2 things that are being discussed, "cost cutting" unanimously seems to emerge as a very bad thing to do. I ask this, is it really so bad?

Cost cutting simply means to cut costs. NOT cut corners, but cut costs. A good example of the same would be parts sharing between different products from the same manufacturer (Ford - Fiesta, Figo. Suzuki - Swift, SX 4, Vitara). As long as the vehichle meets it objective, as prescribed by the manufacturer, based on what is in demand (why else would they produce something else) cost cutting IMO is not a bad thing at all.

Lets take the simplest of examples ... 2 pens. One is a Mont Blanc, the other a Reynolds. Both are pens designed to do one thing and one thing alone ... to write. But would that mean that the product specifications of the two would be the same? Me thinks NOT. One is premium, the other - Built to a COST. Now apply the same logic to a car manufacturer, sayyyyyyy Toyota. Now Toyota launched the Etios and had one objective in mind, to build the cheapest Toyota sedan in the world. They looked at opportunities where they could cut costs and in turn, pass the benefit to the customer (in the form of a relatively easy to afford Toyota). They omitted some features (?) that helped them achieve their target WITHOUT compromising on their basic principal - An easy to run, reliable and efficient vehichle. So they took off the cladding on the wheel wells. This increased NVH levels at speed and did not look very nice. But it still did not take anything away from their objective of building a reliable car at a cost. Similarly, the placement of indicator stalks is a design decision. I personally find such a set up much better. In fact, I have no problems switching over from my LHS stalk configuration car (in a manner of speaking) to the RHS one. Not sure why this issue is being flogged here so much, with some people insisting that this is a flaw / cutting corners thing. It works for some and does not for others. Lets just leave it at that.

The next part, a design flaw, IMO is something that was designed with a certain objective in mind but was unable to meet the requirement efficiently (or at all). Friendly neighbourhood mod Tanveer has given some very valid observations of the same taking Safari as an example (both design flaws and cost cuts, the bad ones).

Our dear thread starter seems to have a major major grouse with the windows not being able to roll down completely. Pray tell, what purpose is achieved by rolling down the window 100% than being able to roll it down 60 odd %? It would be very interesting to see.

We have also had some blanket statements from the above mentioned gentleman that, quite franky, leave me a bit amused. A few questions to you sir:
  • Nobody drives with their dogs in the car OR dogs are not meant to travel in a car - A friend of mine owns 2 dogs and has to take them to a trusted vet around 30 kms from where he stays .. off and on. How do you think the dogs cover the distance? A nice long walk with the master?
  • Kids that are old enough to roll down windows would know they should not jump / lean out the car window - Kids can do the darndest things imaginable. My wife's niece (4 odd years old i think) was once riding with her mom in my car's backseat. Just out of the blue, got free of her mum's grasp and yanked open the rear door. Oh and the car was in motion. Enough said?
Heck, we are even bringing in lack of safety features as cost cutting. Really?

I mentioned this in another thread discussing the topic of "safety features in low end variants" that manufacturers will produce what the junta will demand. Take the example of one of the 10,000 units a month hatchback, Swift. The diesel has no airbags option. Even in petrol, the max versions that I get to see on raod are a mix between Vxi and Lxi. Why is it that every second petrol Swift is not a Zxi? The manufacturer is offering the option. Or how many Vxi's do you see sporting that ABS badge? Not many I would say. Aren't there other diesel hatchbacks in the market offering Airbags and other safety features? Why does the junta swarm towards the Swift? Is a good engine, funky design or Maruti A$$ greater than lives of thousands of customers and their loved ones? I dont know, but the sales chart does not seem to agree with the "Indians want safety features but these manufacturers are not giving it to us" syndrome. In fact, it would be utterly stupid of any manufacturer to ignore market demand. Remember, they are here to produce what the market wants.

So, must we blame Suzuki (or the likes) for not equipping the cars with Airbags and ABS and what not, or our own apathy towards such life savers? The hilariious part is, some also want the Govt. to ENFORCE this as a mandate for all cars. People who do not care two hoots for safety, must be begged and enforced to protect their and their loved ones' lives?Genious I say.

IMO this thread has outlived its purpose and will never reach a logical conclusion. Had it been something like a "list of cost cuttings you have observed" or something, I could still understand that. the only point I could agree with was the single reverse light part. I HATE it.

But out of sheer curiosity, what car do you own Mr thread starter sir?

Apologies for the long post. Peace

Last edited by Urban_Nomad : 4th July 2011 at 19:13.
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Old 4th July 2011, 19:16   #145
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by rajcs View Post
To me it appears that having indicator stack on the right will make more sense in RHD vehicles since it permits simultaneous operation of steering and turn indicators with the right hand while the left hand would be free to shift gears. While I am now used to the skoda config, I still miss flipping indicators with right hand fingers while downshifting with left hand.
But isn't that a dangerous practice? Because flipping indicator switches with one hand and using the gear knob with the other means the steering wheel is free to rotate = inviting trouble?
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Old 4th July 2011, 19:29   #146
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Originally Posted by MARCUS_520i View Post
But isn't that a dangerous practice? Because flipping indicator switches with one hand and using the gear knob with the other means the steering wheel is free to rotate = inviting trouble?
Maybe cars that are ergonomically poor in this aspect(like Sumo Grande) makes you take the hands of the steering. For the rest of the cars you flick the stalk with your middle finger or index finger(note that i have small hands resembling a girl,relative to my body) so don't think of saying that not everyone can do it.
So no question of the steering wheel being free.
Also in turns other than lane changes one has to downshift at the same time as putting on the indicator.
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Old 4th July 2011, 20:08   #147
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

Attached here is the image of a LHD AStar (Alto/Celerio) produced here in India and exported the world over. If you notice the stack (enlarge the picture) you can see that this LHD AStar has the Light+Indicator stalk on the LHS side. While making this car for LHD market the manufacturer has not stuck with the RHD stalk configuration probably due the legislation in target markets.

Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars-suzukialto_2009_1600x1200_wallpaper_0d.jpg

Point im trying to make here is that there seems to be a right way of placing the control stalk and those countries seem to enforce it too. Otherwise why would Maruti do it? Afaik three countries they sell this car are RHD, India, UK and Australia. Production is only in India.

So is LHD stalk on RHD countries cost cutting? Yes, i would like to think so.

LHD wiper (Logan) on RHD countries? Yes that too.
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Old 4th July 2011, 21:03   #148
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Arrow Indicator Stalks on the left or right? What is 'correct'?

Just came across this thread and read skimmed through it.

Bringing back a "beaten to death" topic yet again, to share some thoughts. - What side should the indicator stalks be on?

@Mods, This topic probably deserves a separate thread. In case you so think, please move this to a new thread, alongwith the quotes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meili View Post
3) Indicatior and light stalk on the wrong side!
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
Meili, well, as I mentioned earlier, if you have any sort of evidence for the 'standard' placement of wiper stalks, and specific reasons for it, please let me know. I would be more than happy to educate myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lancer_rit View Post
If the indicators are on the right side in a RHD car, I can use my right hand on the steering to operate them, and my right hand is always on my steering. Indicator usage is a frequent one in city drives (if you follow the rules). The left hand on the other hand has to get off the wheel in a RHD MT car to change gears, and less frequently to apply the hand brake. So, I do believe, the indicators must be on right side on RHD car, as they must be on the left side for LHD car.
Otherwise, show me non-UK Euro manufacturer who has placed the indicator on the right side for a LHD car !
I believe, not changing the indicator and wiper stalk positions from a LHD car to a RHD car is plain and simple "cost cutting". If Merc does it, then it still remains cost cutting!
Quote:
Originally Posted by gharika View Post
Cost Cutting:
Undersized tyres (Almost all manufacturers do it)
--------
Don't we have LHD and RHD design guidelines as to what goes where? I definitely feel its not comfortable to switch between the two designs of stalks for my Figo and Scopio.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swanand Inamdar View Post
Indicator/wiper stalks on the other side is hardly a flaw. Its a design.

I have a Skoda and a Swift, and NEVER do I get confused on the stalk placement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooney View Post
If I may, I will qualify your statement a little. It is a cost-cutting design. Fords have the indicators stick on the left-hand side (and the wiper stick on the right). This saves FoMoCo to design, rather modify, console sticks for two different markets — the left-hand and the right-hand drive markets. These sticks are used in both the markets as it is and saves considerable money for the company.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
This has been discussed to death, but still.. In INDIA, which configuration is correct?. Whats the criteria for that decision, and where can we find it?.

For the sake of argument, I say Ford is correct and MS is wrong. How can one prove me wrong? Just because olden 800 and Ambys came with that configuration, and one is used to it, doesn't mean that is right.

What I mean to say is, its just a design, and not cost cutting. Like some having the tacho on left and speedo on right and vice versa. You cant really argue with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DicKy View Post
Hundreds of time discussed to death ,this subject.
--------------
Chevrolet India,except for the Tavera used to put the control stalks in LHD, but in the latest Cruze and Beat they have rectified it. For what?

Is there a correct side for indicator stalks?


We could debate as to why left or right it better. I'll get into that bit later. To start with, there ought to be a convention for this. Drivers should not have to change from one side to another when they move from one car to another.


Why should there be a convention?


When talking about accidents, we talk about presence of mind and of fraction of a second decisions. Having the indicator stalk on a the 'wrong' side can cause confusions and delays. Also consider that there are older drivers and the like on roads. Agreed that it may not be the biggest tool to save oneself from an accident, but yes - it is a tool. Indicating your intentions in difficult situations can save one from an accident. Also good driving practice to do so, which prevents accidents in the first place, even if one isn't in dire situations.

With so much talk of safety - having a convention would only add to it, and at minimal cost. It also doesn't 'effort' from users to be safer (for a seat belt to be effective the user has to 'wear' it)

So, I do believe that there should be a convention for having it on the same side in all cars in a country.



Now, which side should the indicator stalk be on?

A large part of the driving population is used to the stalks being on the right. Again, also consider the driving population outside this forum, for a moment guys. Does it seem more prudent to get all of them adjusted to the indicator stalks on the left or vice a versa?

But should we not move them to the side which is better?
Which side is better?


If the stalks are on the left, it leaves one hand (the right) to be totally free to be on the steering, which seems safe.

But wait, it also seems to cause some confusion for some of us. The left hand is to manage both the gear and the indicator. Many times, when one is taking one hand to the gear (possibly moving to a lower gear before a turn), and one needs to given an indicator (to change lanes or to take a turn), it seems plain convenient to use the other hand to give the indicators. Now, I suspect most of us comfortably use the indicator without moving our hands from the steering, with just a flick of the fingers. (In case that is not convenient on some cars, I'd call that a design flaw and the indicator stalks should be closer to the steering).

In case of dire situations, it also seems safer to control all three (gear, steering and indicator) together, which is possible with the indicator stalk on the right.

Let us also imagine a less dire situation. I am on an undivided highway trying to overtake a long lorry. I move lanes to do so. Now as I am trying to overtake, I want to move to a lower gear if needed. Instinctively, my left hand moves to the gear shift. Would I not want to be able to control the indicator stalk if I need to indicate my intentions to the vehicles around? I, for sure would like to have that option.

For me, it is pretty clear which side the indicators work better for myself.

(Just in case I needed so specify it - the right side)

I just tried to share my thoughts and no offense is meant to anyone. Others, of course may want to agree, disagree, change their opinions or stick with them. Given good enough reasons, I too am open to a change in opinion.

=======================

About the tyres being undersized - besides saving minor initial costs, it could be because of stated FE. If manufacturers had wider/bigger tyres, the rated FE (govt. and Mags) and it would cause ample hit in sales.

About the windows rolling down all-together - It is a design decision. One needs to compromise one thing for another. Here the designers compromise the windows rolling down fully for other issues like aesthetic design etc. It is based on their perception of what the consumer will care more for.

Edit: I opened the reply window a long time back and in the meantime there were some 3 more posts on the same topic.

Last edited by Poitive : 4th July 2011 at 21:10. Reason: Clarified seat belt point, typo, edit note in the end.
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Old 4th July 2011, 22:53   #149
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

Frankly the argument for the indicator stalks being on the 'right' side (both dexterity and correctness) is a little iffy, specially if mentioning the combination of simultaneously using the gear, steering and indicator. The human body will always separate the actions by a few fractions, and if you have one hand off the steering and operating the indicator you need sufficient palm pressure on the steering to control the car if it not in a straight line. It sounds like superdexterity to me if it is at the exact same moment. A few hundredths, sure, but that is achievable even with a LHS indicator.

The point is that you must be in the correct gear before attempting any acceleration or cornering, and you must have already indicated the correct lane and your intentions. Therefore for day-to-day driving and if you are within the city speed limits, the stalk orientation is immaterial if you are used to it.

The only issue as I see is not indicator control, but headlight control, which is a more critical safety device than indicators. All cars in the UK, for example, now come with the indicator stalk on the left but this has caused some controversy (on forums).

At night for example, in the middle of a gear change if you were confronted by oncoming traffic in your lane (very likely in some Indian cities), you would not be able to flash your lights at him because your indicator hand would be on the gear knob. That may be a slight safety issue here, though if you or the other car or both were not able to brake in time, flashing your lights would not have been of much use.

In all my driving years I have not been troubled by LHS indicators/lights very much except when I have to drive a car with the RH stalk being lights (the reverse of what most here seem to be comfortable with), but that adjustment takes two corners to get used to and operate correctly. One doesn't complain when one car has a long clutch or spongy brake or a different seating position, one has to get used to it. It's just a characteristic.

As to driving population this forum represents .00001% of the car owning population in the country. I'm not sure what sort of a representation that is. I would hesitate to draw any numerical conclusions from the results on this board.
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Old 4th July 2011, 23:52   #150
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Frankly the argument for the indicator stalks being on the 'right' side (both dexterity and correctness) is a little iffy, specially if mentioning the combination of simultaneously using the gear, steering and indicator.
Not really. Its the most logical. You don't have to do 3 things at a time. But shifting gears and turning an indicator on, can happen simultaneously since one is typically slowing down for a turn. If it was just a matter of "chance", then show me a LHD in Europe/America which has indicator stalks on the right side!
Quote:
The point is that you must be in the correct gear before attempting any acceleration or cornering, and you must have already indicated the correct lane and your intentions. Therefore for day-to-day driving and if you are within the city speed limits, the stalk orientation is immaterial if you are used to it.
Again, i do not agree. One needs to give the indicator for turn well in advance of the turn (unline some folks in our country who even turn before putting on the indicator). Similarly, by good driving practise, one needs to slow down well in advance of the turn. So, both events can happen at the same time or close to each other. Hence, there is no need to multiplex two actions to left hand, when there is a better alternative.

Quote:
At night for example, in the middle of a gear change if you were confronted by oncoming traffic in your lane (very likely in some Indian cities), you would not be able to flash your lights at him because your indicator hand would be on the gear knob. That may be a slight safety issue here, though if you or the other car or both were not able to brake in time, flashing your lights would not have been of much use.
Don't see why you would need to flash your headlights anyway. Is the oncoming guy ignoring your normal headlight beam ? I don't see this much of an issue compared to the need for using indicators for safe driving. The number of times you flash headlights (most times in irritation I must say than for any other purpose) is miniscule compared to the number of times one turns on the indicator. I would say a ratio of 1:100 if not even larger.

Quote:
In all my driving years I have not been troubled by LHS indicators/lights very much except when I have to drive a car with the RH stalk being lights (the reverse of what most here seem to be comfortable with), but that adjustment takes two corners to get used to and operate correctly. One doesn't complain when one car has a long clutch or spongy brake or a different seating position, one has to get used to it. It's just a characteristic.
The two things you are trying to compare are apples and oranges. So, there is no sense in the comparo. I have driven LHD oriented cars for long as well w/o any trouble. But that does not mean, the positioning is the most logical and ergonomic one. BTW, the indicator stalks also operate the headlights in most cars.

Last edited by lancer_rit : 4th July 2011 at 23:54.
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