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Old 28th October 2012, 00:35   #181
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
I would buy that if you were just provided a reflector instead of the rear fog-lamps.

Be sensible, this in no-way is related to cost cutting. How much should FIAT invest to put on a transparent lens instead of the red one?

The rear fog-lamp is provided for a purpose and let's appreciate it. Even most other European cars have a rear fog instead of the additional reverse lamp.
Yeah, I do appreciate that FIAT provided rear fog-lamp. Not sure how many cars have it currently. I have had used it many times while in highways.

However, if we have 2 reverse lights it improves the visibility while taking reverse in dark conditions and I suffer because of this often. Because Fiat provided a rear fog-lamp, I do not agree they can make do with one reverse lamp. Even if this is not a cost cutting measure by Fiat, I would still say - its still irritating miss.
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Old 29th October 2012, 21:52   #182
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Whether it is placed on right side or left, it makes no difference to the fire hazard.

Visibility is not an issue. What are ORVMs for?
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Old 29th October 2012, 22:33   #183
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If I remember correctly, even the Ford Ikon initially came only with one reverse-light. In the subsequent face-lifts (that featured clear-lens repeaters), they added a second one.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 00:21   #184
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
I would buy that if you were just provided a reflector instead of the rear fog-lamps.

Be sensible, this in no-way is related to cost cutting. How much should FIAT invest to put on a transparent lens instead of the red one?

The rear fog-lamp is provided for a purpose and let's appreciate it. Even most other European cars have a rear fog instead of the additional reverse lamp.
Of course this is cost cutting. Instead of providing reversing lamps on both sides, they have provided one (hopefully brighter) lamp on one side and a fog lamp on the other. The lighting will be uneven, even if you turn on the red hued fog lamp. Even the Tata Indica comes with twin reversing lamps and twin rear fog lamps, so why can't VW and Fiat do it? In our Indigo CS, the rear tail lamps have two filaments, and the brighter one acts as the rear fog lamp. This could have been done on the Punto as well, considering there is already a blank for the reflector next to the reversing lamp.

Styling and cost cutting shouldn't come in the way of utility, especially when it's something as significant as lighting or controls. The LHS control stalks of several cars is a hazard, nothing else. Imagine doing a lane switch maneuver at 80 kph and accidentally switching the wipers on. It causes a momentary panic and a lapse in concentration which could prove deadly at speed.

Having the fuel lid on the driver side in India is also a pain, because of the confusion it causes. This means that you would have to park on the inside of the pump rather than the outside, causing confusion and blockage if there is only one pump servicing vehicles in both directions.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 22:49   #185
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Of course this is cost cutting. Instead of providing reversing lamps on both sides, they have provided one (hopefully brighter) lamp on one side and a fog lamp on the other.
Lets see. Case 1. (Rear Reverse lamps for both sides)Two rear reverse lamps, simple, just a clear lens and a bulb.

Case 2. (A reverse lamp and fog lamp each)

A different lens, a dedicated fog lamp switch, dedicated wiring.

Which costs less is for any toddler to decide.


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Even the Tata Indica comes with twin reversing lamps and twin rear fog lamps, so why can't VW and Fiat do it?
Which variant of the Indica has rear fog lamps? Even if it had, I do not find any difference between the brake lamps and the assumed fog-lamps.

Quote:
The LHS control stalks of several cars is a hazard, nothing else. Imagine doing a lane switch maneuver at 80 kph and accidentally switching the wipers on. It causes a momentary panic and a lapse in concentration which could prove deadly at speed.
Maybe for people who have a difficulty to adapt to things.

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Having the fuel lid on the driver side in India is also a pain, because of the confusion it causes. This means that you would have to park on the inside of the pump rather than the outside, causing confusion and blockage if there is only one pump servicing vehicles in both directions.
Hardly matters.
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Old 4th November 2012, 13:12   #186
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
Lets see. Case 1. (Rear Reverse lamps for both sides)Two rear reverse lamps, simple, just a clear lens and a bulb.

Case 2. (A reverse lamp and fog lamp each)

A different lens, a dedicated fog lamp switch, dedicated wiring.

Which costs less is for any toddler to decide.




Which variant of the Indica has rear fog lamps? Even if it had, I do not find any difference between the brake lamps and the assumed fog-lamps.



Maybe for people who have a difficulty to adapt to things.



Hardly matters.
If everything is a matter of cost, then why overcharge for the assumed premiumness of the car? If one cant provide two basic reverse lamps, they are hardly premium. This very philosophy and lack of resistance from the buying public has ensured that abs/ebd and airbags are premium today and not part of basic equipment

Indica does have two reversing lights and Tatas dont skimp on providing extra lamps or bulbs

Adapting to things? Why should one 'adapt' to wrongly placed controls simply because the lazy European manufacturer doesnt feel like changing controls based on driving position, or because he feels he can get away by skimping on this?
Indian cars when exported/changed to LHD, do they retain wrong side controls? When it doesnt work in Europe why the hell must it work in India?
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Old 4th November 2012, 13:55   #187
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

deletion of reversing lights are minor issues. what is worrying is that OEM's in their obsession to cut costs and price their cars lower and lower are also skimping on many design features which are mandatory items on Europe specific models.
In our country OEM's cut back the most on safety related features because Indian homologation / legislation still does not have anything remotely close to the NCAP or Euro crash testing standards.
And we are saddled with cars which actually cannot be sold anywhere in Europe.
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Old 4th November 2012, 14:25   #188
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The Ford Classic in its newly launched Titanium variant offers both double reversing lamps as well as dual rear fogs ie it actually has two brighter bulbs in the brake-light cluster, which provide a good (almost disturbing to the eye) amount of red illumination to following vehicles.

It also has "wrongly" placed stalks (just like most other European and American manufacturers), which I find no problem with, since I belong to the 'other' camp here (those who say its just a matter of adaptability). Part of the reason is that I've driven more of left-side-indicator-stalk cars than right-side one's. So for me actually, Jap cars are the ones I have to adjust to!

One glaring instance of (its a big word here in this thread!) cost-cutting I find in the Fords is the placement of the bonnet opener in the passenger footwell. That, frankly, screams "Shame on you, Ford!" in my opinion.

Another is the spare pressed-steel wheel, which I imagine would look hideous even for the short run to the puncture shop, alongside the other three alloys. (This I believe is one thing most manufacturers do, and its time some corrective action be taken).



There is one thing (a DESIGN issue) which has always bothered me though (ever since I've learned about FWD and RWD in my teenage years). With most of the passenger cars in the Indian market being front-wheel-drive, what, I implore, is the need for a transmission tunnel??

All passenger cars have one, and we always crib about how it makes life difficult for the fifth middle passenger, but I've always wondered, why can't we have flat floors (a la Honda City/Civic iirc) when there are obviously no plans or possibilities of having a rear-wheel-drive model based on the same platform? Or is it that manufacturers want to keep their options open for future models based on the same chassis? I for one havent seen a RWD Swift (although I understand 4WD Swift is available in int'l markets).

Also, even RWD's are possible even without an unsightly bulge in the floor - by shifting the propeller shaft towards the bottom of the differential driving gear, ie, not having it centre aligned.

I've asked this question to many professors/knowledgeable people, some have also stated the reason of 'rigidity'; but for that even a corrugated/ribbed floor would do the job just as well. Similarly, exhaust/fuel line routing can also be done without such a big hump.

So my final question is, is this a design flaw, or what? :confused
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Old 4th November 2012, 15:35   #189
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
Adapting to things? Why should one 'adapt' to wrongly placed controls simply because the lazy European manufacturer doesnt feel like changing controls based on driving position, or because he feels he can get away by skimping on this?
Indian cars when exported/changed to LHD, do they retain wrong side controls? When it doesnt work in Europe why the hell must it work in India?
It does not work like that, Sir.

Positioning of indicator stalks has nothing to do with cost-cutting or laziness. They are not 'wrongly' placed as some say. European cars (even the RHD British cars) have the stalks placed in that fashion. It's just that the Korean / Japanese brands preferred to go down another route and be 'different'. Universally, cars come with indicator-stalk on the left and wiper-stalk on the right.

EDIT: let me put it this way. Stalks on the steering-wheel are not just country-spec (LHD-RHD), they are more importantly 'brand' spec.

Last edited by suhaas307 : 4th November 2012 at 15:41.
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Old 4th November 2012, 20:13   #190
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
It does not work like that, Sir.

Positioning of indicator stalks has nothing to do with cost-cutting or laziness. They are not 'wrongly' placed as some say. European cars (even the RHD British cars) have the stalks placed in that fashion. It's just that the Korean / Japanese brands preferred to go down another route and be 'different'. Universally, cars come with indicator-stalk on the left and wiper-stalk on the right.

EDIT: let me put it this way. Stalks on the steering-wheel are not just country-spec (LHD-RHD), they are more importantly 'brand' spec.

Negative Sir, In most cases, by industry convention, the signal stalk is on the outboard side of the column: the left side in a left-hand drive car, or the right side in a right-hand drive car. Source: wikipedia.org http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_lighting
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Old 4th November 2012, 20:36   #191
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

One thing I find irritating is that some lower end cars can be permanantly put in "High beam" with the turn of rotary knob on the indicator stalks. So next time you start the headlight they are in High Beam position. This is a simlar setiing in motorcycles and scooter. In Linea whenever you start the car or turn off and turn on the headlights, it is always in Low beam position.
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Old 4th November 2012, 21:04   #192
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

Maruti Ertiga - No light or even an option for a light in the center of a very large passenger space. The only point sources are front, near the windscreen, and rear, which also doubles up as a bonnet light.
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Old 4th November 2012, 21:21   #193
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

Most of the so called "cost cutting" is nothing but our difficulty to adapt from Maruti to other manufacturers.
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Old 4th November 2012, 21:35   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyline GT-R
Most of the so called "cost cutting" is nothing but our difficulty to adapt from Maruti to other manufacturers.
Kinda agree. I feel we have been/become tremendously accustomed to doing things the Maruti way. Anything that isn't cut from the same cloth just wont do!
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Old 4th November 2012, 22:23   #195
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
Negative Sir, In most cases, by industry convention, the signal stalk is on the outboard side of the column: the left side in a left-hand drive car, or the right side in a right-hand drive car. Source: wikipedia.org http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_lighting
AH-64D, you're Absolutely spot-on!

Even if its said that this topic has been done to death and beyond - the fact remains that left signal stalks for a RHD car is just plain wrong.

Its plain ergonomics - the outside stalk needs to be the signal indicator since the inside hand needs to be free for a quick gear shift, which often precedes a lane-change. The gear lever and the signal-stalk then need to be operated almost simultaneously. Its ergonomically efficient to have the signal stalk with the free hand (outside hand) - which in the RHD would be the right hand.

Yes we can adapt to just about anything - but the fact remains that efficient designs stand apart and ones with safety connotations become convention over a period of time. That's the plain truth. The centre-brake light is an excellent analogy here - over a period of time its become a rule to have it.
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