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Old 4th November 2012, 22:40   #196
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Originally Posted by latentpotential
Maruti Ertiga - No light or even an option for a light in the center of a very large passenger space. The only point sources are front, near the windscreen, and rear, which also doubles up as a bonnet light.
I agree in the Ertiga they should have given a centre cabin lamp. But if you noticed, the front cabin lamp has got brighter bulbs than conventional lamps.

Last edited by swiftdiesel : 4th November 2012 at 22:41.
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Old 4th November 2012, 22:57   #197
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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
It does not work like that, Sir.

Positioning of indicator stalks has nothing to do with cost-cutting or laziness. They are not 'wrongly' placed as some say. European cars (even the RHD British cars) have the stalks placed in that fashion. It's just that the Korean / Japanese brands preferred to go down another route and be 'different'. Universally, cars come with indicator-stalk on the left and wiper-stalk on the right.

EDIT: let me put it this way. Stalks on the steering-wheel are not just country-spec (LHD-RHD), they are more importantly 'brand' spec.
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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
Negative Sir, In most cases, by industry convention, the signal stalk is on the outboard side of the column: the left side in a left-hand drive car, or the right side in a right-hand drive car. Source: wikipedia.org http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_lighting
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Originally Posted by Rigid Rotor View Post
AH-64D, you're Absolutely spot-on!
And here is a link that disproves that. And it's from Wikipedia too.

Quote:
In left hand drive vehicles the turn indicator stalks are located on the left of the steering column.

In right-hand-drive (RHD) motor vehicles, the indicator stalk is located on either the left or right of the steering column, depending manufacturer. European RHD cars generally have the stalk on the left (often using the same component as LHD cars), while Asia-Pacific RHD cars generally have the stalk on the right (mirroring the configuration of a LHD vehicle). Some manufacturers such as Subaru still have variation in the model line up as to where the turn indicator stalk is located.
See, Wikipedia is a reasonably reliable source but we can't always go by it. If you want to believe that manufacturers are resorting to cost-cutting, then be my guest.

EDIT:

Food for though: Gun to head, I would understand Ford resorting to cost cutting on the Figo regarding the stalks (the RPM meter is the same for both petrol / diesel Figos! Go figure) But would companies like Porsche / BMW / Mercedes actually stick to the 'LHD stalk configuration' JUST because they want to save costs? Remember, these companies offer cars with some pretty cool gizmos like heads-up-speedo-displays, etc. apart from the 'allegedly ill-position' of indicator stalks for their RHD cars. What's in it for them?

Last edited by suhaas307 : 5th November 2012 at 00:17. Reason: added info
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Old 4th November 2012, 23:55   #198
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Originally Posted by Harshal.Bhosale View Post
With most of the passenger cars in the Indian market being front-wheel-drive, what, I implore, is the need for a transmission tunnel??

All passenger cars have one, and we always crib about how it makes life difficult for the fifth middle passenger, but I've always wondered, why can't we have flat floors (a la Honda City/Civic iirc)
nope. not a design flaw. deliberate. route the exhaust down the middle of the centre tunnel and that's it. cheapest and easiest way to route the exhaust.
as you correctly point out, a flat floor is not a big deal, but requires a little bit of creativity. Take a look at the JAZZ's exhaust packaging. Runs along the right-underside (next to the right sill) of the car. Sheer brilliance. But the question is do other OEM's want to spend that bit more time, money(to add other bits and bobs to compensate and maintain the same torsional stiffness), energy, man-hours and engineering validation for a alternative ? And in most cases platforms are "adapted" for indian use - and in europe it doesn't matter whether there's space at the back or not, so why bother ?
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Old 5th November 2012, 01:46   #199
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Originally Posted by arjab

nope. not a design flaw. deliberate. route the exhaust down the middle of the centre tunnel and that's it. cheapest and easiest way to route the exhaust.
as you correctly point out, a flat floor is not a big deal, but requires a little bit of creativity.
.
.
.
But the question is do other OEM's want to spend that bit more time, money(to add other bits and bobs to compensate and maintain the same torsional stiffness), energy, man-hours and engineering validation for a alternative ?
**Not a design flaw? (sniffs around, regroups thoughts) Ha! Its a cost cutting initiative then!**

Well, well, well. Ain't that just dandy! We seem to have stumbled upon one of the most widespread instances of COST-CUTTING being resorted to by manufacturers in India (well, across the globe, for that matter - but I don't know the scene abroad)!

As a mechanical engg student, I have always believed that for an engineer, if there exists a way to do something better, then regardless off costs involved, THAT way is the way forward. Costs are secondary. An engineer's job is to create, to innovate, and to find solutions to existing problems. Our beloved manufacturers then, seem to be taking retrograde steps vis-a-vis transmission humps, even though corrective methods are widely known (who will take the complicated way around?).

Consider this: the debate over LHS-vs-RHS has been running for quite a while now, and we know it will never end, but this? Wonder what our fellow t-bhpians have to say about transmission tunnels as a cost cutting measure?

Thanks and regards,
Harshal.
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Old 5th November 2012, 09:05   #200
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by Harshal.Bhosale View Post
I have always believed that for an engineer, if there exists a way to do something better, then regardless off costs involved, THAT way is the way forward. Costs are secondary.
Its not that simple like you say... Even I thought so, when I was studying.

To get an idea, you should read Dhabar Behram sir's posts in the Thar thread, to understand the complications an enthusiastic, dedicated engineer faces. You will be guided in totality!
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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
But would companies like Porsche / BMW / Mercedes actually stick to the 'LHD stalk configuration' JUST because they want to save costs? Remember, these companies offer cars with some pretty cool gizmos like heads-up-speedo-displays, etc. apart from the 'allegedly ill-position' of indicator stalks for their RHD cars. What's in it for them?
Good point Suhaas. I was just going to point this out. Same case with reversing lights too. Rather than to light up the road in the back, nowadays, its a tell tale lamp which tells the guys at the back that you are reversing.

Last edited by dhanushs : 5th November 2012 at 09:07.
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Old 5th November 2012, 09:22   #201
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

My contribution to this thread for the shortfalls of Linea.

1) No bottle holders, very bad from FIAT. When they are getting cars to India, they should ensure it meets at least minimal of requirements such as bottle holders.

2) Cost cutting evident in the floor carpets, cut very wierdly to accommodate the floor AC vents.
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Old 5th November 2012, 10:06   #202
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Originally Posted by nkrishnap View Post
My contribution to this thread for the shortfalls of Linea.

1) No bottle holders, very bad from FIAT. When they are getting cars to India, they should ensure it meets at least minimal of requirements such as bottle holders.

2) Cost cutting evident in the floor carpets, cut very wierdly to accommodate the floor AC vents.
Adding to these points. The engine itself is a cost cutting 1248 CC diesel engine for such a big and heavy vehicle. The only consideratioin being, the car should pull in all gears equally, but this car has to be revved to putin into the turbo range, so that the car can move. Even the 990KG etios comes with 1370CC engine.

All the plastics are cheap, and they are loosing colors. This is another bad area where the cost shouldnt be cut.
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Old 5th November 2012, 10:32   #203
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Originally Posted by gemi_kk View Post
Adding to these points. The engine itself is a cost cutting 1248 CC diesel engine for such a big and heavy vehicle. The only consideratioin being, the car should pull in all gears equally, but this car has to be revved to putin into the turbo range, so that the car can move. Even the 990KG etios comes with 1370CC engine.
Cubic capacity (cc) isn't as important as the power / torque that the car makes. Small capacity engines can make more horsepower / turning-force than some larger capacity engines. In other words, the 'cc' doesn't matter as much as the peak torque / power figures (and more importantly, the RPM they arrive at.)

Case in point: Fiat's TwinAir / MultiAir tech, Ford's EcoBoost tech, McLaren MP4-12C's relatively small 3.8 twin-turbo V8 engine that produces in excess of 600 horses.
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Old 5th November 2012, 10:44   #204
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Originally Posted by dhanushs
Its not that simple like you say...

To get an idea, you should read Dhabar Behram sir's posts in the Thar thread, to understand the complications an enthusiastic, dedicated engineer faces. You will be guided in totality!
Thanks. Will read it shortly (out currently).

But yes, I think I understand what you mean. There are a lot of other factors to consider for mainstream vehicles. The policy I was referring to is more suited in motorsports, I believe. I guess for paasenger/commercial vehicles they'd have all sorts of market feasibility studies and such things (which I'm not much aware of by the way! :stupid).
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Old 5th November 2012, 10:44   #205
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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
Cubic capacity (cc) isn't as important as the power / torque that the car makes. Small capacity engines can make more horsepower / turning-force than some larger capacity engines. In other words, the 'cc' doesn't matter as much as the peak torque / power figures (and more importantly, the RPM they arrive at.)

Case in point: Fiat's TwinAir / MultiAir tech, Ford's EcoBoost tech, McLaren MP4-12C's relatively small 3.8 twin-turbo V8 engine that produces in excess of 600 horses.
Suhas, When i say cost cutting, its not exactly cost cutting.
The Linea Active costs 8.35 Exshowroom in hyderabad. Where as the Rapid costs 8..24 exshowroom.

Any customer who is paying such a price for such a big car would expect the car to be performing better. It doesnt meet the customer's expectations. Which would inturn be a cost cutting in customers perspective. Yes it is indeed true.
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Old 5th November 2012, 11:05   #206
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Firstly, the turn indicator should always be towards the driver side door. This is for both LHD and RHD vehicles. The idea is that the driver can indicate a turn with the hand on the steering wheel. The other hand may be required to change gears. This can be overlooked on a RHD vehicles with an automatic gearbox as the left had would always be on the steering wheel. This would be a safety concern if drivers actually bothered indicating before turning.
The rear reversing light really shocked me. I found out about it when I was taking delivery of my Liva. I cannot understand the idea of saving a few meters of wire and a bulb on a vehicle with ABS and airbags which is definitely not a "cheap" hatchback. The lights should be made mandatory by the government. It makes absolutely no sense that car manufactures have to provide two extra bulbs and a safety kit along with every new car but they can just provide only one reversing light.
I would also like both reversing mirrors as well as ABS to be made compulsory an all vehicles. It may take time to enforce but a few years ago even the use of seatbelts was optional.
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Old 6th November 2012, 08:39   #207
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One more example of the worst kind of cost cutting/rationalization/cost saving or what ever it may be. Mahindra (nee Renault) Logan. The wipers are positioned for LHD in a RHD car. Now during rains there is a largish uncleared spot right above the driver (RHS) where as the left hand side of the windshield is swept completely.
This glaring example of cost cutting infringes on the safety since a dirty patch on the driver's side of the windshield cuts down on his visibility when he needs it most, during the rains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
Cubic capacity (cc) isn't as important as the power / torque that the car makes. Small capacity engines can make more horsepower / turning-force than some larger capacity engines. In other words, the 'cc' doesn't matter as much as the peak torque / power figures
Using that argument, we all must have superbike engines in our small cars. A Haybusa produces in excess of 170bhp with a 1300cc (maruti swift size) engine. A Ninja 650 too produces 70bhp from a 600cc engine.
What rpm does the power and torque come into play is important. For a street car having an engine produce peak power at 8000 rpm is a big waste. It may be completely undriveable in bumper to bumper traffic. Likewise a peak torque coming in at a highish 5000 rpm means one has to rev the nuts off the car to overtake.
There is no replacement for displacement my friend and a high capacity engine, which revs at low rpm, produces power and torque in a flat curve at low rpms would be far more relaxing to drive, compared to a high strung race car.

Regarding cost cutting, One more example of the worst kind of cost cutting/rationalization/cost saving or what ever it may be. Mahindra (nee Renault) Logan. The wipers are positioned for LHD in a RHD car. Now during rains there is a largish uncleared spot right above the driver (RHS) where as the left hand side of the windshield is swept completely.
This glaring example of cost cutting infringes on the safety since a dirty patch on the driver's side of the windshield cuts down on his visibility when he needs it most, during the rains.

Note from the Team-BHP Support: Please use the EDIT or MULTI-QUOTE buttons instead of typing one post after another on the same thread.

Last edited by n_aditya : 7th November 2012 at 09:58. Reason: Merged posts
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Old 6th November 2012, 10:37   #208
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Originally Posted by autounion View Post
Firstly, the turn indicator should always be towards the driver side door. This is for both LHD and RHD vehicles. The idea is that the driver can indicate a turn with the hand on the steering wheel. The other hand may be required to change gears. This can be overlooked on a RHD vehicles with an automatic gearbox as the left had would always be on the steering wheel. This would be a safety concern if drivers actually bothered indicating before turning.
I personally see it as a boon. when using Virginia Sticks [From RocknRolla], i put my left hand on the armrest, and i am ready to go. The other hand is free giving peace to mind, and i can use high/low beams and Indicators. This is my personal opinion though.
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Old 6th November 2012, 11:58   #209
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Using that argument, we all must have superbike engines in our small cars. A Haybusa produces in excess of 170bhp with a 1300cc (maruti swift size) engine. A Ninja 650 too produces 70bhp from a 600cc engine.
What rpm does the power and torque come into play is important.
Thank you for very conveniently cutting up my post and quoting me out of context.

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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
Cubic capacity (cc) isn't as important as the power / torque that the car makes. Small capacity engines can make more horsepower / turning-force than some larger capacity engines. In other words, the 'cc' doesn't matter as much as the peak torque / power figures (and more importantly, the RPM they arrive at.)
Did you miss the part in brackets? I've used bold-tags this time so that you don't miss it.

Regarding high strung engines.. tell me something I don't know, Sir. Where have I mentioned that street cars would benefit from small capacity high-revving engines? I just said that cubic-capacity does not matter as much as power and torque figures, and that too, with reference to gemi's post where he compares 1248 cc and 1370 cc motors stating that the former is inadequate given the weight of the vehicle.

Also, I mentioned a few examples too. The EcoBoost engine may be a small-capacity engine but the turbo ensures that there is a whole lot more power / torque coming in. Turbocharged cars do not require to be revved much to get your power and torque, and the same goes for the McLaren and its 3.8 liter turbocharged V8. You may as well ride the wave of torque.

Oh, by the way, going by your argument on 'There is no replacement for displacement', we should have 8000cc Dodge Vipers from the '90s sold again and by the truck-load. After all, more the cc, the better? Right? *nods head in disbelief*
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Old 6th November 2012, 13:47   #210
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
One more example of the worst kind of cost cutting/rationalization/cost saving or what ever it may be. Mahindra (nee Renault) Logan. The wipers are positioned for LHD in a RHD car. Now during rains there is a largish uncleared spot right above the driver (RHS) where as the left hand side of the windshield is swept completely.
This glaring example of cost cutting infringes on the safety since a dirty patch on the driver's side of the windshield cuts down on his visibility when he needs it most, during the rains.
Please update yourself, the new Verito has this corrected and the old Logan is long dead.
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