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Old 6th November 2012, 19:32   #211
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
...
See, Wikipedia is a reasonably reliable source but we can't always go by it. If you want to believe that manufacturers are resorting to cost-cutting, then be my guest.

EDIT:

Food for though: Gun to head, I would understand Ford resorting to cost cutting on the Figo regarding the stalks (the RPM meter is the same for both petrol / diesel Figos! Go figure) But would companies like Porsche / BMW / Mercedes actually stick to the 'LHD stalk configuration' JUST because they want to save costs? Remember, these companies offer cars with some pretty cool gizmos like heads-up-speedo-displays, etc. apart from the 'allegedly ill-position' of indicator stalks for their RHD cars. What's in it for them?
I guess we can continue arguing on this till the cows come home and then some!
The argument I put forth in my earlier post is not based on Wikipedia being the absolute repository of knowledge.
Its about ergonomics and correct locations of primary controls and switches.
Humans are adaptable and we could adapt to the LHD stalk configuration.
The Q here is - it the most efficient ?
The answer is NO for the simple reasons already given in my earlier post.
- the need to keep the inside hand free for a quick gear change and the outside hand to indicate an impending lane-change. Primary controls and safety indications here.
And Man Machine Interface is not all about being subjective. There is a certain underlying logic. If a top brand does it the other way for RHD cars, it does not make it "right".
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Old 6th November 2012, 20:57   #212
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
Thank you for very conveniently cutting up my post and quoting me out of context.



Did you miss the part in brackets? I've used bold-tags this time so that you don't miss it.

Regarding high strung engines.. tell me something I don't know, Sir. Where have I mentioned that street cars would benefit from small capacity high-revving engines? I just said that cubic-capacity does not matter as much as power and torque figures, and that too, with reference to gemi's post where he compares 1248 cc and 1370 cc motors stating that the former is inadequate given the weight of the vehicle.

Also, I mentioned a few examples too. The EcoBoost engine may be a small-capacity engine but the turbo ensures that there is a whole lot more power / torque coming in. Turbocharged cars do not require to be revved much to get your power and torque, and the same goes for the McLaren and its 3.8 liter turbocharged V8. You may as well ride the wave of torque.

Oh, by the way, going by your argument on 'There is no replacement for displacement', we should have 8000cc Dodge Vipers from the '90s sold again and by the truck-load. After all, more the cc, the better? Right? *nods head in disbelief*
I didn't quote you out of context. If you had some subtle points hidden between interplay of words, then sorry, I couldn't spot it.
Oh btw, you speak of the eco boost as if its the holy grail, lets see when it comes if it does all it claims and more.

Your critical comments aside, a bigger engine translates to a smoother power curve, more torque and a comfortable drive.
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Old 6th November 2012, 21:15   #213
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by Rigid Rotor View Post
The Q here is - it the most efficient ?
The answer is NO for the simple reasons already given in my earlier post.
- the need to keep the inside hand free for a quick gear change and the outside hand to indicate an impending lane-change. Primary controls and safety indications here.
I understand your premise, but in this thread, we discuss cost-cutting and design flaws. The LHD stalk configuration cannot be inferred as a cost cutting measure. You could say that it is flawed. That's up to you to decide.

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I didn't quote you out of context. If you had some subtle points hidden between interplay of words, then sorry, I couldn't spot it.
Interplay of words? You just didn't read it right, Sir. The sentence YOU quoted clearly had the words in brackets removed! Why? Did you not read what's in the brackets? The paragraph was all of 3 lines and it ends with a few words that I'd bracketed. And that bracketed bit was removed. As you can see, the original post is unedited. If that's not quoting out of context, then I don't know what is.

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Oh btw, you speak of the eco boost as if its the holy grail, lets see when it comes if it does all it claims and more.
Holy grail? LOL! uite the opposite actually. I find it funny that Ford has built the engine-block out of cast-iron when every other company looking to build efficient engines are using aluminum blocks.

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Your critical comments aside, a bigger engine translates to a smoother power curve, more torque and a comfortable drive.
Okay.
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Old 6th November 2012, 21:25   #214
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
a bigger engine translates to a smoother power curve, more torque and a comfortable drive.
Not necessarily true. The cost may not make financial sense but forced induction does wonders for engine performance. Also improving technology has meant that newer engines are more efficient and effective.

If there was no replacement for displacement, wouldn't most supercar manufacturers be using big block v8's upwards of 5 litres. They don't for a reason. Super and turbocharging do wonders to engine performance and when done correctly, it can better a NA bigger block engine.
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Old 6th November 2012, 22:44   #215
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by Rigid Rotor View Post
Humans are adaptable and we could adapt to the LHD stalk configuration.
The Q here is - it the most efficient ?
The answer is NO for the simple reasons already given in my earlier post.
- the need to keep the inside hand free for a quick gear change and the outside hand to indicate an impending lane-change. Primary controls and safety indications here.
To be honest, I don't think the stalks in LHD or RHD config really make a different. I mean I have 3 cars with the stalks in LHD configuration, auto and manual. And 1 car with RHD config. I never get confused and maybe .01% of the times do I pull a stalk on the wrong side. Nor have I found LHD stalks affect my gear changes or anything in a manual.

Not targetted at you, but in general I think a big deal is being made out of it. I
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Old 6th November 2012, 23:10   #216
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I've been hoping and praying that the stalk debate dies out of its own accord since the past few days, but it refuses to do so!

@suhaas307, could we have a once-and-for-all poll on this?

"Should indicator stalks compulsorily be on the driver-door side of the steering column?"

I really think that a whole thread dedicated to just this issue would still go on forever here. Has a poll been taken on this issue already? Anyone know about it?
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Old 13th November 2012, 18:08   #217
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by akshay1234 View Post
I never get confused and maybe .01% of the times do I pull a stalk on the wrong side
You pull the stalk wrong side because of the confusion . Since you're swapping the cars often, you probably could have got used to that.

Been used to Ford set up for the past 65k Kms and when I take a Maruthi (alto, very rarely), I never make a mistake initially as I would be conscious not to use the stalk wrongly. But in 1 hr city ride, 2-3 times I end up using wiper stalk instead of indicators.

Edit: Agreed never felt "why it was designed like this"

Last edited by Surprise : 13th November 2012 at 18:15.
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Old 13th November 2012, 18:12   #218
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by Surprise View Post
You pull the stalk wrong side because of the confusion . Since you're swapping the cars often, you probably could have got used to that.

Been used to Ford set up for the past 65k Kms and when I take a Maruthi (alto, very rarely), I never make a mistake initially as I would be conscious not to use the stalk wrongly. But in 1 hr city ride, 2-3 times I end up using wiper stalk instead of indicators.
Well of course its due to me not paying attention. The rare time it happens id generally happens the first time I need to use a stalk, after which for the rest of the drive I never make a mistake. All I'm saying is its really not that bad at all.
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Old 16th November 2012, 12:47   #219
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
Lets see. Case 1. (Rear Reverse lamps for both sides)Two rear reverse lamps, simple, just a clear lens and a bulb.

Case 2. (A reverse lamp and fog lamp each)

A different lens, a dedicated fog lamp switch, dedicated wiring.

Which costs less is for any toddler to decide.
Maybe you should read posts properly and educate yourself before making unnecessarily rude, smug and uninformed replies. Why would you compare two reverse lamps to one reverse and one fog? I clearly mentioned the Indigo and the Indica, which have two reversing lamps and two rear fog lamps.

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Which variant of the Indica has rear fog lamps? Even if it had, I do not find any difference between the brake lamps and the assumed fog-lamps.
Like I said, uninformed. Do a search on this forum and you'll find where the rear fogs are on an Indica. Every variant of Indica has rear fogs, but just the top variants have them connected. Oh, and rear fog lamps are the same brightness level as brake lamps (21W) on most cars.

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Maybe for people who have a difficulty to adapt to things.
The point is, drivers should not have to adapt to basic thing like this. If I bought an iPhone in India and it came with a 110V charger, I'd have every right to be upset. Same thing applies here. The companies need to adapt to the market, not the other way around.

As for the issue of the indicator stalks, the vast majority of traffic in the world (72%) follow LHD. I don't see why it is hard to believe that LHD controls in Indian cars is cost cutting. As for why top European marques havent switched for India, I would assume that it is because RHD market isn't large enough for them to make that change. Luxury cars make up only a small fraction of that 28%.

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Hardly matters.
It wouldn't, at least not until you have to refuel in a queue.

Last edited by vivekgk : 16th November 2012 at 13:01.
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Old 16th November 2012, 19:59   #220
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

You need to take a chill-pill.

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Why would you compare two reverse lamps to one reverse and one fog?
If you go back to the topic in hand, since providing a fog-lamp instead of a reverse lamp was termed as cost-cutting. Simple.

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I clearly mentioned the Indigo and the Indica, which have two reversing lamps and two rear fog lamps.
Oh, is it? Care to post a picture and depict where they are located?

Quote:
Every variant of Indica has rear fogs, but just the top variants have them connected. Oh, and rear fog lamps are the same brightness level as brake lamps (21W) on most cars.
Irrespective of brightness levels, there should be some kind of differentiation between brake lamps and fog lamps, how is a person who is tailing you differentiate the brake lamps and the fog-lamps?

And as per you, in an Indica DLE, a said lamp is a brake lamp, and say a DLX or whatever, it is a fog lamp? I would rather call this cost-cutting. And the Indi** has gone through 'n' number of iterations, please post pictures of the tail-lamp cluster of the current version and tag the fog-lamps for us.

Quote:
The point is, drivers should not have to adapt to basic thing like this. If I bought an iPhone in India and it came with a 110V charger, I'd have every right to be upset.
Is using a 110V charger in India as easy as using your left hand instead of your right or vice-versa? Bad analogy.

Quote:

It wouldn't, at least not until you have to refuel in a queue.
Even then, it wouldn't. You just have to queue up at the appropriate side of the pump. As simple as that.

Wonder what the hue and cry is all about!
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Old 16th November 2012, 22:48   #221
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
You need to take a chill-pill.
Really? I'm not the one who had an over the top reaction to your post. Like I said, you need to do some real research before spouting off ill-informed opinions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DRIV3R
If you go back to the topic in hand, since providing a fog-lamp instead of a reverse lamp was termed as cost-cutting. Simple.
Yes, and my point was that they needed to provide two reversing lamps AND a fog lamp (or two). You said it would be cheaper if the fog lamp was replaced with a reversing lamp.

Quote:
Oh, is it? Care to post a picture and depict where they are located?
Sure.


The topmost section is the tail/brake lamps. The fog lamp is located just above the white reversing lamp, below the amber indicator. A similar arrangement is followed in later versions of the Indica as well. In later iterations of the Indica, it is in the lowermost position. In my Indigo, it is in the same position as the tail lamp. The second filament in the tail lamp on each side is used as the fog lamp, 42W combined.

Quote:
Irrespective of brightness levels, there should be some kind of differentiation between brake lamps and fog lamps, how is a person who is tailing you differentiate the brake lamps and the fog-lamps?
  • Firstly, I'm guessing people usually don't ride the brake, so the red light that's on all the time should be the fog lamp.
  • Secondly, you're not supposed to drive with the rear fogs on, it's distracting. Rear fogs are to be used while reversing in fog.
Quote:
And as per you, in an Indica DLE, a said lamp is a brake lamp, and say a DLX or whatever, it is a fog lamp? I would rather call this cost-cutting. And the Indi** has gone through 'n' number of iterations, please post pictures of the tail-lamp cluster of the current version and tag the fog-lamps for us.
In a DLE/DLS, there is no switch for the rear fogs. The wiring and even the bulb is already present in the same location. Add a switch from any electrical shop and you have rear fog lamps.

Quote:
Is using a 110V charger in India as easy as using your left hand instead of your right or vice-versa? Bad analogy.
In either case, you have to adapt. With an 'adaptor' or by adapting to the new controls.

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Even then, it wouldn't. You just have to queue up at the appropriate side of the pump. As simple as that. Wonder what the hue and cry is all about!
Not if there's already a queue on the other side as well. Then you have to take a U-turn. It's inconvenient.
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Old 16th November 2012, 23:22   #222
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Secondly, you're not supposed to drive with the rear fogs on, it's distracting. Rear fogs are to be used while reversing in fog.
This pretty much sums up everything and your views on this topic.

Thanks. Signing off from this discussion.
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Old 16th November 2012, 23:39   #223
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Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
This pretty much sums up everything and your views on this topic.

Thanks. Signing off from this discussion.
What, you're not supposed to drive with them on unless there's fog. You see jokers driving with them on full time. Bye anyways, no need to hurry back.
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Old 17th November 2012, 00:00   #224
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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What, you're not supposed to drive with them on unless there's fog. You see jokers driving with them on full time. Bye anyways, no need to hurry back.
Vivek, interestingly, 2004-06 indicas have taillights with a reverse on one side and a fog on the other
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Old 17th November 2012, 00:19   #225
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The stalk positioning debate brings back memories of my struggle in adapting to the left hand driving mode when abroad, and again getting into the Right hand driving mode when back home. As with everything, it gets easier with practice, its just a question of training your mind to do it almost sub-consciously like the way we change gears.
OT- Can we somehow bring about a uniform driving mode left/right all over the world ??
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