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Old 17th November 2012, 01:20   #226
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
Vivek, interestingly, 2004-06 indicas have taillights with a reverse on one side and a fog on the other
Hi Greenhorn, are you sure, I think that was only on the export versions or something. I've seen a pic of an Indica tail light with a red lens on the left side, which is the norm for LHD. These are the 2004-2006 Indica lights, rt?

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The red area in the circle is where I think the fogs are. Plus, there are reversing lights on both sides in this pic, right under the amber indicators.

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Originally Posted by msmatic View Post
The stalk positioning debate brings back memories of my struggle in adapting to the left hand driving mode when abroad, and again getting into the Right hand driving mode when back home. As with everything, it gets easier with practice, its just a question of training your mind to do it almost sub-consciously like the way we change gears.
True, it is a matter of getting used to it, but I just think that when you're making a car that's going to sell in lakhs, you should be adapting to the market, not otherwise.

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Originally Posted by msmatic View Post
OT- Can we somehow bring about a uniform driving mode left/right all over the world ??
I'd be in favour of it, it would mean that the minority would have to change to LHD. It shouldn't affect Indian traffic that much, seeing how most drivers on the road are already confused about what side they're on, overtake from the left and hog the right side of the road. It might even improve the traffic conditions and reduce accidents, until Indians get used to LHD.
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Old 17th November 2012, 10:59   #227
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
Secondly, you're not supposed to drive with the rear fogs on, it's distracting. Rear fogs are to be used while reversing in fog.
This is incorrect. Rear fog lights are indeed meant to be used when driving in heavy fog / other low visibility conditions (like torrential rain). From wiki:

Quote:
In Europe and other countries adhering to UN Regulation 48, vehicles must be equipped with one or two bright red "rear fog lamps" (or "fog taillamps"), which serve as high-intensity rear position lamps to be energised by the driver in conditions of poor visibility to enhance vehicle conspicuity from the rear. The allowable range of intensity for a rear fog lamp is 150 to 300 candela which is within the range of a U.S. stop lamp.

For this reason, some European vehicles imported to the United States have their rear fog lamps wired as stop lamps, since their European-specification stop lamps may not be sufficiently intense to comply with U.S. regulations, and in North America rear fog lamps are not required equipment. However, they are permitted, and are found almost exclusively on European-brand vehicles in North America Audi, Jaguar, Mercedes, MINI, Land Rover, Porsche, Saab and Volvo provide functional rear fog lights on their North American models. The final generation Oldsmobile Aurora also had dual rear fog lights installed in the rear bumper as standard equipment.

Most jurisdictions permit rear fog lamps to be installed either singly or in pairs. If a single rear fog is fitted, most jurisdictions require it to be located at or to the driver's side of the vehicle's centreline whichever side is the prevailing driver's side in the country in which the vehicle is registered.[13] This is to maximise the sight line of following drivers to the rear fog lamp. In many cases, a single reversing lamp is mounted on the passenger side of the vehicle, positionally symmetrical with the rear fog. If two rear fog lamps are fitted, they must be symmetrical with respect to the vehicle's centreline.[13] Proponents of twin rear fog lamps say two lamps provide vehicle distance information not available from a single lamp. Proponents of the single rear fog lamp say dual rear fog lamps closely mimic the appearance of illuminated stop lamps (which are mandatorily installed in pairs), reducing the conspicuity of the stop lamps' message when the rear fogs are activated. To provide some safeguard against rear fog lamps being confused with stop lamps, UN Regulation 48 requires a separation of at least 10 cm between the closest illuminated edges of any stop lamp and any rear fog lamp.[13]
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Old 17th November 2012, 11:02   #228
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
....
Just to disprove you, here is a pic i clicked few minutes before.

The car is braking. And we can see how many of the bulbs are glowing.


And it is the latest version of tail-lamps BTW.
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Old 17th November 2012, 12:26   #229
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
This is incorrect. Rear fog lights are indeed meant to be used when driving in heavy fog / other low visibility conditions (like torrential rain). From wiki:
There's an 'and' missing in my reply. I only noticed after the 20 min edit limit had passed. I meant to type: "Rear fogs are to be used while reversing and in fog." But thanks for clearing it up.

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Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
Just to disprove you, here is a pic i clicked few minutes before.

The car is braking. And we can see how many of the bulbs are glowing.

And it is the latest version of tail-lamps BTW.
Sorry dude, this is a common mod. Since Tata has the bulb already installed in all variants, many Indica owners just connect it to the brake lamp, a simple mod. The lower set of red lamps are the fogs, and as you see, there are two of them, separate from the two reversing lamps and they're as bright as the brake lamps.

Last edited by vivekgk : 17th November 2012 at 12:30.
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Old 17th November 2012, 16:23   #230
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
Hi Greenhorn, are you sure, I think that was only on the export versions or something. I've seen a pic of an Indica tail light with a red lens on the left side, which is the norm for LHD. These are the 2004-2006 Indica lights, rt?
Yes am pretty sure. we even had a discussion on this here a couple of years back, , can't seem to dig it up right now
I think the ones with the red lens for fogs are for the export models - have not seen any locally, but then I've seen the older export spec taillamps on some indicabs - not sure if tata put them there or the cabbies got hold of export surplus tail light assemblies)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
Just to disprove you, here is a pic i clicked few minutes before.

The car is braking. And we can see how many of the bulbs are glowing.


And it is the latest version of tail-lamps BTW.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
Sorry dude, this is a common mod. Since Tata has the bulb already installed in all variants, many Indica owners just connect it to the brake lamp, a simple mod. The lower set of red lamps are the fogs, and as you see, there are two of them, separate from the two reversing lamps and they're as bright as the brake lamps.
Yup, can confirm this is a common mod a lot of cabbies. Do all you have to do is connect the extra bulbs to the brake light wire. I have a DLG turbo which has rear fogs, and they have to be turned on seperately. And the tail lights wont work at all for DLS and lower models
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Old 17th November 2012, 18:53   #231
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

This animated discussion on reverse lights and rear fog lamps have thrown up some very interesting views and observations.

In my opinion, the manufacturers will attempt any cost cutting measures that are legal and we cannot fault them on this count. So it is up to the authorities such as central and state govt and agencies like ARAI to bring in legislation necessary on features that affect road safety.

On the number of reversing lights, Clause 105 (7) of Central Motor Vehicle Rules (CMVR) states as follows :
On and from the date of commencement of the Central Motor Vehicles (Amendment) Rules, 1999, every motor vehicle manufactured shall be fitted with at least one lamp which shall automatically be operated, throwing a white light to the rear, when the vehicle is being driven in the reverse gear.

So manufacturers need to provide atleast one reversing light to be on the right side of law. It is interesting to note that this stipulation is a modification of earlier clause of 1993 :
Two years from the date of commencement of the Central Motor Vehicles (Amendment) Rules, 1993, every motor vehicle, manufactured, shall be fitted with one lamp at the rear throwing white light to the rear when the vehicle is being driven in the reverse gear. There shall also be an audible warning system operating when the vehicle is being driven in the reverse gear. The audible warning system, and the light shall be automatically operated so that this system will not work unless the vehicle is in reverse gear.

So we have improved from needing to provide one reversing lamp to atleast one. Thankfully that mandatory audible reverse warning has been done away with.

The CMVR is silent on the need for fog lamps on cars. However Automotive Industry Standard AIS 008/2001 published by ARAI provides specifications for fog lamps which are optional. While it mandates that there should be two front fog lamps, rear fog lamps can be one or two. But it requires rear fog lamps to be placed atleast 100mm away from the stop lamp, which may not be met if both are housed in the same reflector assembly.

Link to CMVR : http://www.tn.gov.in/sta/cmvr1989.pdf
Link to ARAI AIS : https://www.araiindia.com/cpanel/Fil...8.0AIS-008.pdf

Last edited by rajcs : 17th November 2012 at 18:54.
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Old 17th November 2012, 19:14   #232
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

Let's forget the stalks and lights for a minute and think of ORVMs. If I remember correctly, Maruti resorted to cost-cutting by lobbing off the left outside-rear-view-mirror on several cars in their stable. Not sure if they still do this, but I'd say it's utter blasphemy.
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Old 17th November 2012, 19:58   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307
If I remember correctly, Maruti resorted to cost-cutting by lobbing off the left outside-rear-view-mirror on several cars in their stable. Not sure if they still do this, but I'd say it's utter blasphemy.
Bang on! The newest from their stable, the Alto 800, doesn't have the passenger side ORVM as standard even in the Lxi. Guess you have to pay for it.

Even the Tata Nano didn't have one, not even as an optional accessory (:shock), until the 2012 model came along. But then, its had to cut costs; cheapest car after all!
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Old 17th November 2012, 20:00   #234
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

There are couple of reasons I can see why manufacturers chose to "not do the best things"

First: To show a very cheap entry level car to attract a person into the showroom. If you see, a ORVM not here, a light not there, some black plastic cladding here and there all adds up to couple of ten thousands and voila there is a cheap entry level car. Now will a person who is aware go buy it, I don't think so. But there could be some person buying and using it which can lead to problems for him - god save him and others around his car! I guess as I read in a post earlier legislation should be made to make good number of parts like ORVMs, fog lamps, ABS, Air Bags etc as mandatory parts in the car. The reason for not having this done is because many people do not chose to claim from insurance when there is an accident worrying they will lose their no claim bonus! This lets insurance companies be lazy and not worry about it. Let there be an increase in cost to insurance companies, they will lobby and make many of these parts mandatory to "prevent" accidents and hence reduce their "cost".

Second: Many manufactures use platform & parts sharing to reduce design and eventual roll out costs. They will reuse the platform (like Indica platform very well "extended" into Indigo). This will result in certain "un-foreseen" flaws which creep into the product. Will the manufacturers want to correct them, I will say not until someone raises a flag! The ORVMs in Indigo is of same size as Indica. Now, parts reuse may be the reason but have anyone felt the mirror is not sufficient for an Indigo XL or Marina.

As long as manufacturers are planning to make profits they will do what it takes to make that extra buck into their pocket. Only good laws will ensure the products are safe and sound. (this is my thought)
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Old 18th November 2012, 03:27   #235
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by srinih75 View Post
There are couple of reasons I can see why manufacturers chose to "not do the best things"

First: To show a very cheap entry level car to attract a person into the showroom.
True. This is a common (and worrying) trend in low budget cars. My uncle's Chevrolet Spark PS came with AC and PS but no left side ORVM. The showroom didn't have it in stock either, so they had to wait till first service to get it fitted. But to be fair, they were thrilled to get a spacious car with AC and PS for just 3.15 lacs.

Quote:
Second: Many manufactures use platform & parts sharing to reduce design and eventual roll out costs. They will reuse the platform (like Indica platform very well "extended" into Indigo). This will result in certain "un-foreseen" flaws which creep into the product. Will the manufacturers want to correct them, I will say not until someone raises a flag! The ORVMs in Indigo is of same size as Indica. Now, parts reuse may be the reason but have anyone felt the mirror is not sufficient for an Indigo XL or Marina.
I get the point you're making here, but I really can't think of any flaws that came from basing the Indigo on the Indica other than the looks. the Indica had a rear suspension issue which was corrected in the Indigo with a 5 link setup. The weight was increased, but the Indigo got stiffer suspension and bigger tyres.

IMO, a better example would be the Spacio which was based on the Sumo with a DI engine from the 407 truck. The NVH levels have to be felt to be believed, they were so horrible. It wasn't until years afterwards that Tata addressed the issue even partially. Another example is the 3 litre DICOR engine which was plonked into the Safari as a stop gap measure. Or Tata's attempt at making a luxury limo with the stretched Indigo XL, which had serious effects on the handling of the vehicle.

Like you said, all companies, regardless of their origin and target market, will do everything they can to reduce costs. Some of these measures merely cause inconvenience, while others are more serious.

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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
Yes am pretty sure. we even had a discussion on this here a couple of years back, , can't seem to dig it up right now
I think the ones with the red lens for fogs are for the export models - have not seen any locally, but then I've seen the older export spec taillamps on some indicabs - not sure if tata put them there or the cabbies got hold of export surplus tail light assemblies)
I think these must be some kind of surplus, because the ones I've seen had the red lens on the off side. With how often Tata changes the light design (the Indica eV2 CR4 just got a headlight/bumer upgrade), it's inevitable that some manufacturer would be stuck with surplus or rejected stuff that gets dumped into the grey market.

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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
Yup, can confirm this is a common mod a lot of cabbies do. All you have to do is connect the extra bulbs to the brake light wire.
Thanks for the confirmation. I had seen the mod being done at an accessories shop. They charge about 30 rs as labour, I think.
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Old 18th November 2012, 10:55   #236
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

Cost cutting is the norm of any industry whose main aim is to maximise profits. Bodies like SIAM and consumer forums, automobile safety bodies and insurance companies need to pressurise automakers to prevent cost cutting on infringing on safety.

Classic examples of cost cutting
1) Lack of sound insulation below bonnet in petrol cars, and entry level diesel hatches.
2) Lack of left outside mirror in entry level models
3) Reversing of wiper/indicator stalks
4) Black/gray cladding, bumpers, pull handles
5) Lack of alloy spare wheel or even lack of spare wheel
6) Bare basic toolkit provided, sometimes missing crucial spanners
7) Lack of power steering, airconditioning on some really basic models
8) Single wiper blades
9) Wiper blades sweeping for LHD instead of RHD
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Old 18th November 2012, 23:51   #237
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Originally Posted by Harshal.Bhosale View Post
Bang on! The newest from their stable, the Alto 800, doesn't have the passenger side ORVM as standard even in the Lxi. Guess you have to pay for it.

Even the Tata Nano didn't have one, not even as an optional accessory (:shock), until the 2012 model came along. But then, its had to cut costs; cheapest car after all!

I am quite certain that CMVR doesn't require left ORVM as compulsory equipment in Indian automobiles, as is true for a High mounted stop light or head light leveling device.
Also sorely missed in these cars is Day/Night prismatic inside tar view mirrors. it's impossible to drive at night with all the rear cars' lights glaring your eyes.

So in all fairness to low cost entry level cars, mfg lets people who want it buy it as accessory or upgrade to higher variant. Win win as both these decisions fetch more profits for the seller/mfg. But since 90% junta doesn't bother/care enough, we see a Lott of idiotic drivers around .... thanks to cost cutting!

Talking of design flaws, what about inability of wiper arm to lift up in vw Vento & polo? also notice the huge big center hump on the rear seats of these cars? I can't imagine a 5 passenger sitting in comfort in the rear center for more than 20 mins.
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Old 19th November 2012, 11:40   #238
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Thumbs down re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by spinfreak View Post
So in all fairness to low cost entry level cars, mfg lets people who want it buy it as accessory or upgrade to higher variant. Win win as both these decisions fetch more profits for the seller/mfg. But since 90% junta doesn't bother/care enough, we see a Lott of idiotic drivers around .... thanks to cost cutting!
Do you really think even vehicles which come with ORVMs run around with them open.

I have heard enough people say that someone might clip the mirror on the road and hence, they keep it closed. Anyway, we do not use it.

Quite often when you park at a public parking place (paid), the attendant will close the ORVM so that no damage occurs but many people just drive off without even opening it. This shows people never even look through these mirrors.
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Old 19th November 2012, 12:46   #239
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Do you really think even vehicles which come with ORVMs run around with them open.
+1 to that. I have a colleague who drives an Innova, but prefers to keep the ORVMs closed for the same reason- they might get damaged in traffic, and he doesn't use them anyway.
It's like with seatbelts- you've seen how a lot of taxi drivers and some owners keep seatbelts perpetually locked behind them so as to 'appear' to be wearing seatbelts.
It's like with helmets- inspite of there being enough evidence in favor of them and a rule making it illegal to ride without, they haven't managed to make helmets mandatory in Pune!
So even if you mandate low end and base variant cars to be equipped with both ORVMs, those that won't use it- won't use it.
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Old 19th November 2012, 13:21   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spinfreak
also notice the huge big center hump on the rear seats of these cars? I can't imagine a 5 passenger sitting in comfort in the rear center for more than 20 mins.
We had a discussion on this a few pages before - around nov 4-5ish I think. Do read that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spinfreak
But since 90% junta doesn't bother/care enough, we see a Lott of idiotic drivers around .... thanks to cost cutting!
Quote:
Originally Posted by adits
This shows people never even look through these mirrors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiserketkar
So even if you mandate low end and base variant cars to be equipped with both ORVMs, those that won't use it- won't use it.
True. Its our people that bring this upon themselves. Its the mental makeup that needs to change. Who can force the people if they aren't bothered about their own safety?

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Originally Posted by kaiserketkar
It's like with helmets- inspite of there being enough evidence in favor of them and a rule making it illegal to ride without, they haven't managed to make helmets mandatory in Pune!
Agree. Time and again the traffic department has tried, but failed, so miserable has been the response. I mean, how many headless (pun) idiots are the police going to pull over?

The Army guys also tried this in Southern Command areas in Pune, and implemented it successfully. And theirs was a foolproof method - they would have a group of jawans at the defence-road entry points, and these guys would straightaway ask the non-helmet wearers to turn around and not pass through the army roads. No receipt, no challan, no bribes, nothing. Just turn around and take the 5-odd km longer route to reach, say, Railway Station or MG Road. Dunno why they slackened up again.
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