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Old 23rd April 2011, 22:57   #16
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

lancer has one design flaw, where the bonnet tends to crack, where the bonnet holder is rested while working on engine bay. the holder should not have been positioned there, since the metal could not support full weight of bonnet on one side. instead, the holder should have support in front(as in uno).
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Old 23rd April 2011, 23:06   #17
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

Meili,

Most if not all the European cars including the likes of the Laura and Superb have their indicator and wiper stalks fitted as per the LHD setting. This is not really a flaw, just takes a little getting used to.

Secondly, the single reverse light again is a standard feature in European cars, well if you really want the normal settings you will have to skip the European brands.
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Old 23rd April 2011, 23:22   #18
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Originally Posted by cranky View Post
Even the Alfa Romeo Mito and The Audi A3 come with a single reverse light. It's a design decision, and some cars basically use one side for reverse and the other side for a rear fog lamp (which is now mandatory in most countries). And besides, with just one light to blow it's easier to spot trouble. Unless you're a reversing speed maniac, not many chances of a reversing-related accident. You should be moving very slowly in reverse. I learnt driving when there was no such thing as reverse lights and have no issues reversing in near-total darkness. The trick is to go very, very slowly. At all times, since visibility is severely impaired when you reverse.
Alfa Romeo Mito and the Audi A3 coming with single reverse light does not justify others to use the same design. If a princess kills someone that makes her a murderer. She may still be a princess and she may still be beautiful but now a murderess nonetheless. By the same token, your Alfa Romeo and Audi A3, if they come with single reverse lights, are still flawed cars. Doesnt matter if they cost a fortune to own.

You say that the second slot is now being used to fit fog lamps. Why then cant they atleast do that on Indian cars. Yes we do have hill stations where it can get pretty foggy certain times of the year to warrant fog lights where available. Leaving one cluster with dummy assembly is simply unacceptable.

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As to the rear glass, some ladies prefer a glass that doesn't open fully at the rear. One is a bit less wind for their hair to get tangled in, and the other is a safety feature against very small children falling out of the car. It's also safer for dogs to stick their head out of a running car.
As for ladies prefering the rear glass not opening fully, why cant they roll it down the length they want? Isn't it always good to know its there for you to do it if you ever wanted to? Kids jumping out of the window? Dogs sticking its head out??/ Are you kidding me? Dogs are not meant to travel in cars. Cars are for people. As for kids in the back, have thewindown rolled down half and buckle up your kids. If they are old enough to wind the windows down full, rest assured they are also old enough to know not to jump out the window of a moving vehicle.

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BTW what you call 'wrong side' for indicator stalk is actually my 'correct' side. I have always owned cars with the wiper on the right and it just seems better for me. In any case you should be indicating your intention to turn long before actually turning, so it's not an inconvenience. If you indicate while taking the turn or just before, you're a bad driver.
In the grander scheme of things your likes and dislikes cultivated out of habit are insignificant. By convention, the stalks are designed so that indicator goes on the door side and washer and wiper on passenger side. There are ergonomic reasons for this design pattern.

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I agree with two ORVM on the car, though I never actually use the left one except to gauge my distance from the vehicle/obstacle next to me. Ditto with wipers - I've never actually seen a car where the driver's side wiper doesn't line up with the A-pillar. I'll take your word on the Logan, it is pretty dangerous.
Yes, the Logan does have the Wiper blades lining up with the A pillar when in use, leaving a large unswept area right in the drivers field of vision.

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Just curious why you think the handbrake should be on driver's side? It should always be on the side away from the door so it can be quickly found. It is the emergency brake, and the driver's free hand should always have quick access to it. If it between the driver and the door your hand may get jammed looking for it.
I didnt at all mean the hand brake to be next to the door. My grouse is about handbrakes that are placed to the left of the coin slot/cubby hole, where storage space is provided near the handbrake in the centre console. Like in the Honda City, where you have the handbrake towards the passenger side, but sitting right next to it towards the driver side is the storage space for knickknacks. I hope I have made this clear.

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You can differ and we can argue till the cows come home. Fact remains the same. It is not a design flaw but as designed. One can take this or go for other makes. Ford in this country is having it for a long time (IKON) and so is GM (OPTRA). And now VW. Letís not confuse the issues here.
If these cars had the opposite configuration on their LHD cars, then I would agree with you that it is the company's chosen design pattern. And they are well within their rights to do that. But lo and behold, inspect these same models sold in Europe and you will find same stalk patterns as on Indian cars! Which clearly goes to prove that they were initially designed to be fitted on LHD cars and the manufacturer never bothered with them during their LHD to RHD conversion process.

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Originally Posted by aaron.d View Post
Meili,

Most if not all the European cars including the likes of the Laura and Superb have their indicator and wiper stalks fitted as per the LHD setting. This is not really a flaw, just takes a little getting used to.

Secondly, the single reverse light again is a standard feature in European cars, well if you really want the normal settings you will have to skip the European brands.
I am well aware of this. And that's exactly my point. That we should not promote manufacturers who couldnt be bothered about carrying out a proper conversion of LHD unit fit for the RHD market. Its a shame they get away with it thanks to consumers such as yourself who apparantly are huge car enthusiasts, but whose attention to detail leave a lot to be desired. Sorry if I come across as rude, that's not my intention.

Image Jap cars exported to Europe with the stalks in the 'wrong' place for LHD. Do you think the European consumers would put up with that shoddy conversion work.


I hope you get the point I am trying to drive home.

Last edited by aah78 : 24th April 2011 at 00:31. Reason: Please use MULTI-QUOTE / QUOTE+ while responding to multiple posts. Thanks!
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Old 23rd April 2011, 23:38   #19
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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second slot is now being used to fit fog lamps. Why then cant they atleast do that on Indian cars
Dear Meili

I think Polo has a rear fog Lamp , have a look at the topic in forum

7) 8TD - Rear fog light for driving on the left - India specific rear fog lamp (only on the right side of the back light)

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...s-india-6.html (Made for India : How some foreign car manufacturers have adapted their cars for India)

I agree with you on costs savings on skipping LHD to RHD conversions in few things like Indicator and most likely reason of your grouse on Hand Brake is also becaus eof this reason only . Yes RVM on one sides is absolutely no but just sample motorists on Highway more than 50 % of people still drive with both or single RVM folded which is criminal .

BTW in US & Canada they use number plates only in rear - what will you say - design flaw or Cost Savings ?
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Old 24th April 2011, 00:16   #20
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by Meili View Post
1) Cannot roll down the rear window glass fully due to wheel arch getting in the way.
This is the issue with Maruti WagonR also; don't know about current gen but it is there in my 2007 model.

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Originally Posted by Meili View Post

2) Single reverse light
This flaw is in upcoming Ford fiesta also (If I am correct). Don't know if this is really intended for cost cutting or what.
Besides these consider Maruti Alto, this car doesnít have the LHS ORVM, cost cutting at the expense of safety. There are many cost cutting methods as mentioned by others. And this is not confined to cars but also applicable to bikes. For example HH Karizma and Yamaha R15 have the worst horn in their segment.
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Old 24th April 2011, 00:29   #21
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Good observation there bluvolt.

In the old city the rear windows dont roll down, but I have heard that it has been 'fixed' in the new iVtec.

Surely, Honda see this as an 'improvement' over the older model.
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Old 24th April 2011, 01:00   #22
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by Meili View Post
If single reversing lights were the order of the day, it wont be too long before cars are rolled out with single brake lights, because that serves the purpose just as well as a single reverse light serves its purpose. I'm sure the Indian consumers wouldn't mind the new 'trend'.
@Meili: A reversing light, a rear fog lamp and even front fog lamps are not designed or meant to serve as units that would illuminate the way, but only serve as indication / warning lamps for other drivers and pedestrians. If it were not so, one should have seen xenon lamps in the reversing light nacelle (at least in the ultra-expensive cars). Once this is clearly understood, your grouse against OEMs who supply one reversing lamp does not stand justified.
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...the rear windows dont roll down...
The rear windows not rolling down completely can well be intentional. What looks good with a large window on the rear door may be rendered completely ugly with the addition of a quarter glass a la the Amby. In any case there are a few supercars that do not even have windows that are "roll-downable" in the interest of aerodynamics, and a small hatch-like opening to facilitate toll payment and such. Also, as a rear seat passenger, I would rather not have the quarter glass frame interfere with my line of sight as I enjoy the view outside from my air-conditioned comfort zone.

IIRC the current production Rolls Royces also do not have rear windows that disappear completely into the door when lowered. You wouldn't accuse RR of cost cutting, would you?
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Old 24th April 2011, 01:07   #23
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There are ergonomic reasons for this design pattern.
Please be so kind as to illuminate.

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Why then cant they atleast do that on Indian cars.
And when do they not?

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Dogs sticking its head out??/ Are you kidding me?
No I'm not kidding you. Your concept of what a car is or is supposed to be or do, has little relevance to the designers who actually make cars. Most European cars are made to suit a typical European family. You're welcome to not buy their cars.

And FWIW, most cars sold in India are converted not only from LHD to RHD, but also from two-door to four-door. And when you convert a coupe to a 4-seater hatch or a large hatch to a sedan, compromises are bound to happen. We in India cannot afford the luxury of a coupe so even the tiniest little car has to have four doors and four seats. And you crib about a rear quarter-glass that they should have also put in, as it is they're squeezing out every little bit of space so a car for two can seat five.

Consider this:

A 2-door Nissan Micra (not top-end model) in UK costs about 10K GBP. 7.5L, give or take.

A fully-loaded 4-door version of the same car here costs 5.3 lakh, give or take.

It gets better. The fully loaded variant in the UK costs about 13K. Which is just shy of 10L INR. Even if taxation in the UK is twice that of India, you're still looking at a price of 8-9L.

If they don't cut costs, you're not going to buy the car.

Why don't you put a list of all the features you think should not be compromised upon and send them to the manufacturers? It might actually help You can use this thread to create a compendium. Unless it's too much work...
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Old 24th April 2011, 01:18   #24
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Originally Posted by Meili View Post
It was a shocking revelation to discover that major Japanese and European brands had now resorted to cheap ways of cost cutting to dupe the consumer. Either the cars came with design flaws, or glaring measures of cost cutting that buying these cars would be an insult to ones self worth.

1) Cannot roll down the rear window glass fully due to wheel arch getting in the way. A quarter glass could have corrected this problem.

2) Single reverse light -apart from being aesthetically unpleasing, this cost cutting measure is a safety issue. Reduces visibility in reverse by 50percent and this is significant in pitch dark conditions. Secondly, it is easy for the single operating light to be caught in blind spot, rendering the light useless in terms of warning other motorists of the car coming in reverse.

3) Indicatior and light stalk on the wrong side! With this configuration you would turn the wipeer on with the right hand and the lights with your left. It is not just about being a source of annoyance. The stalks attached to the steering wheel have been lifter off the left hand drive models and fitted onto the Indian cars.
Agree with pt. 1 & 2. I think you missed one more point, the spare wheel in some cars is of different size than the other 4 wheels

Pt.3 - No idea about the cost involved to swap the switches(indicator/wiper).

But I don't think its a cost cutting or switches on the wrong side.

Recently, I was driving my friend's Accent and I found the switches (indicator/wiper) on the wrong side (as Im used to driving Polo), no issues at all, just took around 10 minutes drive to get familiarize with the switches.

As you already mentioned, with ~20 hatchback models, IMO pricing is going to be a differentiating factor and all manufacturers (desi or videshi) shall try to minimize cost of production and reuse of components is one of the most important factor in achieving the same apart from localization.

For example, if one looks at Tata Indica Vista and Aria (at least 3times more costly), the front looks can be easily compared to one another, similarly almost the recent Passat with that of POLOish look from front, even the ~20L Kizashi looks similar from front to 1/2 its price SX4.

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Originally Posted by Meili View Post
Should consumers pay their hard earned money and produce manufacturers who take their customers for a ride? I believe this sort of cheap tactics of cost cutting should be discouraged by putting the companies out of business.
Bold statement, I must say.

Going by this logic, India might not have any car manufacturers left. I mean, look at MS(with ~ 50% car market share), in some of their cars they do not even provide the LHS ORVM, which is one of the most important safety accessories considering our road manners where 2/4 wheelers often overtake from LHS ...!

Last edited by AvonA7 : 24th April 2011 at 01:23.
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Old 24th April 2011, 01:34   #25
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What about cars having the MID console right at the centre? Is that cost cutting or a new design?

I would say they are for cost cutting too since you find them only in cars which have been designed with the intention of export to LHD countries!
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Old 24th April 2011, 01:37   #26
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Originally Posted by Meili View Post
By convention, the stalks are designed so that indicator goes on the door side and washer and wiper on passenger side. There are ergonomic reasons for this design pattern.
Hey Meili, please can you let me know the "ergonomic reasons" for wiper/indicator stalk design in detail. I would love to hear.

Also, for the past few years, we have owned and have driven cars with wipers on different sides, simultaneously. Believe me, I, my dad, wife, and sis have found the "cost cutting" way, more (ergonomically?) comfortable!.

Last edited by dhanushs : 24th April 2011 at 01:38.
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Old 24th April 2011, 04:33   #27
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

about the rear glass not completely rolling down is not actually a design flaw, it more of safety related issue, the thing is my stock swift ldi with manual rollers would not roll down completely.

but after i shifted to after market autocopx power windows it rolls down completely.

the thing is people tend to put their elbows out of the window as a lumbar support, children tend to stick out of the car and watch, and then other things, to avoid these and eventual mis-happenings to be caused henceforth they have provided not completely roll-down option. imagine, there are millions of ignorant average Indian drivers who pay attention to the road more(rather road only) than whats happening in their interior surroundings!

hence it proves its not a design fault at least not in case of swift! the way i look at it, its safer to have non fully rolling down rear glass.
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Old 24th April 2011, 06:27   #28
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@Meili

Like Rudra mentioned, we can argue about this for all time to come.

I still maintain, the rear reversing light is not at all meant for illumination purposes, but only for warning purposes.

As for the exchanged stalks, the fact that not all people have trouble with this means this is not a "design flaw". It is just a design choice. I shifted from driving what you call "normal" way to the exchanged way without any trouble at all. It took me all of 5 mins to adjust. And even now when I get to drive any of those "proper cars" I still have no trouble at all.

Similarly. having a rear quarter glass or not is also, not a design flaw, but a design choice. I prefer cars without an ugly rear quarter glass, just to make the window roll down a few inches. If it improves the look of the car, I would much rather not have the quarter glass.

As for the requirement of ORVMs I agree, this is a safety requirement. But I dont think many cars skimp on this today. I think only the Nano, M800 and the Omni do. Everybody else gets two.

Almost all cars that come with a single reversing light also come with a rear fog lamp, just like in Europe.

As for the handbrake placement, I really dont see what is the issue with placing the lever 2 inches to the left. Please enlighten me of any such reasons.

The only "design flaw" that anybody has mentioned on this thread yet is the Logan's opposite swiping windshield wipers.

Last edited by julupani : 24th April 2011 at 06:30.
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Old 24th April 2011, 07:31   #29
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

even this is not a design flaw per se- it has just not been adapted for RHD countries.

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@The only "design flaw" that anybody has mentioned on this thread yet is the Logan's opposite swiping windshield wipers.
@meili - the car/ vehicle is merely a mode of transport for many/ most people. Hence if they want to transport their dogs and/or children in them, that is their prerogative. One cant make sweeping statements like"Dogs are not meant to travel in cars".

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Old 24th April 2011, 09:37   #30
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I say it is a design flaw, because it leaves a pretty big blind spot in front of the driver's eyes, in a place through which he is likely to look pretty often. Leaving the other corner is not that big an issue, but the corner in front of the driver should be cleared up. It is an adaptation of LHD cars I know, but this is something that created a minor safety issue. Leaving the wiper stalks is not a big deal at all, but this definitely is.
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