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Old 24th April 2011, 19:53   #46
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by sidindica View Post
design flaw:[list][*]VW Polo and vento's bonnet/ wiper placement gap. Owners said that lifting the wiper has a tendency to interfere with the sheetmetal and the paint gets chipped off.
Adding to this list would be the Vento's hand-brake position. It's difficult to pull the handbrake with the arm rest down.
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Old 24th April 2011, 19:59   #47
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

Indicator stalks on opposite sides (opposite is a convention, not a rule), single reversing lamps, rear windows not opening completely are not the traits which make a good car JUNK as mentioned here for the consumers to stop accepting them. Cars are not merely these parts, they are more. The only junk that bombed due to it being junk I can think of at this moment is San Storm.

Indicator stalks on the opposite side doesn't matter much. One will get used to it very shortly. I drive a Palio and Laura with differing setup and it doesn't bother me anymore. This is not an India specific RHD config, its the same with these cars in all the other RHD countries including UK. IMO, its not a design fault.

Rear windows not opening fully is again not a design fault, but merely a design IMO. If a quarter glass is added in all the presently available cars which opens windows partly like Punto, Polo etc., they further make the total complete open glass area small. Again going by Palio and Laura difference, I prefer the clean look of the Palio without the quarter glass to that of Laura. Anyways, generally windows are not opened at the rear in my cars since driven in AC mostly, so doesn't bother me one bit.

Single reversing lamps are to accommodate rear fog lamps at the other end. Cars that don't have rear fog lamps could be added with an additional reversing lamp. But like people have explained here, I agree they are merely for indicative purpose and not illumination.

As for cost cutting measures, I agree with Suhaas that safety features like airbags, abs, rear disk brakes must be made standard in all cars ranging from Nano to everything else. Most 20 lakh and above cars available today still carry only 2 airbags instead of 6 or 8 in other countries. Rear disks can be seen in standard bikes here today, why not cars? The problem I see here is in Government regulations. Cars in Europe and US have to comply with various safety norms to be sold there whereas a place which boasts the highest deaths due to road accidents don't have any. Hence manufacturers try and save costs here big time.

Last edited by v.anand : 24th April 2011 at 20:08.
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Old 24th April 2011, 20:06   #48
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

Positioning of the hood release lever on the passenger side foot well on the current Fiesta (Fiesta Classic) and the door locking/unlocking mechanism of the Polo and the Vento are atrocious flaws

Last edited by 333 : 24th April 2011 at 20:07.
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Old 24th April 2011, 20:09   #49
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by Meili View Post
[b]Rudra Sen

If these cars had the opposite configuration on their LHD cars, then I would agree with you that it is the company's chosen design pattern. And they are well within their rights to do that. But lo and behold, inspect these same models sold in Europe and you will find same stalk patterns as on Indian cars! Which clearly goes to prove that they were initially designed to be fitted on LHD cars and the manufacturer never bothered with them during their LHD to RHD conversion process...........I am well aware of this. And that's exactly my point. That we should not promote manufacturers who couldnt be bothered about carrying out a proper conversion of LHD unit fit for the RHD market. Its a shame they get away with it thanks to consumers such as yourself who apparantly are huge car enthusiasts, but whose attention to detail leave a lot to be desired. Sorry if I come across as rude, that's not my intention.

Image Jap cars exported to Europe with the stalks in the 'wrong' place for LHD. Do you think the European consumers would put up with that shoddy conversion work.
+100 to that dude,
Was looking forward to post the same thing,this matter seems to be debated endlessly.When Japanese companies can put the correct configurations in LHD cars then why not the Euros do it here?
When imported cars need to have RHD controld stalks then why cars manufactured here are left from the rules.
Also S.Korea is a LHD market,then i don't see any Hyundai's with LHD control stalks in India.
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Old 24th April 2011, 20:53   #50
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by DicKy View Post
+100 to that dude,
Was looking forward to post the same thing,this matter seems to be debated endlessly.When Japanese companies can put the correct configurations in LHD cars then why not the Euros do it here?
When imported cars need to have RHD controld stalks then why cars manufactured here are left from the rules.
Also S.Korea is a LHD market,then i don't see any Hyundai's with LHD control stalks in India.
Precisely! The real issue here is not whether you can get used to the set up or not. We had no problems in driving non power steering cars until a decade ago. But now everyone will agree that power steering makes your life easy and is a better option. That doesnt mean one cannot drive without a power steering now. Similarly getting used to the stalks is a forced choice. Ideally speaking in a RHD your left hand should be free to shift gears ONLY (apart from holding the steering at other times).

And I repeat my query to support my view. Are there any LHD cars in EUROPE with the RHD set up of the stalks? If not then there must be a reason behind it.
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Old 24th April 2011, 21:21   #51
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
Hey Meili, please can you let me know the "ergonomic reasons" for wiper/indicator stalk design in detail. I would love to hear.

Also, for the past few years, we have owned and have driven cars with wipers on different sides, simultaneously. Believe me, I, my dad, wife, and sis have found the "cost cutting" way, more (ergonomically?) comfortable!.
While some of the OP's points are debatable, and also a few are design flaws while others maybe just cost-cutting, and a few others neither, I have to say this argument about indicator stalks is completely misguided from folks who drive cars that have the "LHD" orientation.
Don't get me wrong, I have driven the Matiz for years with the 'LHD' configuration, and done it fine, however it is quite simple to me:

If the indicators are on the right side in a RHD car, I can use my right hand on the steering to operate them, and my right hand is always on my steering. Indicator usage is a frequent one in city drives (if you follow the rules). The left hand on the other hand has to get off the wheel in a RHD MT car to change gears, and less frequently to apply the hand brake. So, I do believe, the indicators must be on right side on RHD car, as they must be on the left side for LHD car.
Otherwise, show me non-UK Euro manufacturer who has placed the indicator on the right side for a LHD car !
I believe, not changing the indicator and wiper stalk positions from a LHD car to a RHD car is plain and simple "cost cutting". If Merc does it, then it still remains cost cutting!

On a lighter note, a German says LHD is the right way to drive (just that it happens to be on the left side) ;-)
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Old 24th April 2011, 21:43   #52
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

Having the control stalks in LHD configuration is most definitely a cost cutting measure. But not a design flaw in any sense. It doesnt make a significant difference to the ability to drive, to be called a flaw in my opinion.
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Old 24th April 2011, 21:49   #53
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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Originally Posted by 333 View Post
Positioning of the hood release lever on the passenger side foot well on the current Fiesta (Fiesta Classic) and the door locking/unlocking mechanism of the Polo and the Vento are atrocious flaws
Our old Amby had ring shaped steel rod positioned on passenger side foot well inspite of it being a british based car.
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Old 24th April 2011, 22:12   #54
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidindica View Post
design flaw:[list][*]VW Polo and vento's bonnet/ wiper placement gap. Owners said that lifting the wiper has a tendency to interfere with the sheetmetal and the paint gets chipped off.
+1, the driver side wiper has to be carefully lifted else it touches the bonnet edge - design flaw

Adding to the list for Polo -

Single reverse light - cost cutting and/or design flaw

door locking mechanism - after locking the doors, it can still be opened from inside the car (not from outside though) - design flaw

different size spare wheel in some model - cost cutting

There can be many logic justifying the above points but these are either cost cutting or design issues IMO

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meili View Post
But lo and behold, inspect these same models sold in Europe and you will find same stalk patterns as on Indian cars! Which clearly goes to prove that they were initially designed to be fitted on LHD cars and the manufacturer never bothered with them during their LHD to RHD conversion process.
Polo in UK have the same stalk patterns as our Indian Polo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meili View Post
we should not promote manufacturers who couldnt be bothered about carrying out a proper conversion of LHD unit fit for the RHD market. Its a shame they get away with it
I think, by 'they' you meant non-Indian car manufacturers especially European, American. Why only them, even our very own Indian car manufacturers get away with these kind of cost cutting/design issues - MS, TATA...

I believe, once we - the Indian car buyers mature, these things will definitely fall in place in future.

Those days are gone when a European, American or Japanese car maker will bring their decade old model in India. Now, cars are built for Indians by these auto-makers.Who would have thought 10 yrs back that an American car maker would launch its car first in India then in US., Toyota - Etios, Honda - Brio?

Finally, let us not shut their shop here, if they move out it`ll be left to 2-3 companies and customer will be the looser
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Old 24th April 2011, 22:38   #55
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

In my book the following are design flaws
  • lack of dead pedal in most cars. I mean, how diificult is it to have that as a must while designing the car from scratch and how convinient a feature it is for drivers who travel in dense traffic and highways.
  • hatchbacks not coming with 60:40 split and seats that do not tumble forward to create more space. How difficult would it be for manufacturers to accomodate this feature even if it were to cost 5 to 10K more. Hatch backs anyway have less space to carry things.
  • Sedan Cars designed/derived from a Hatch on a later stage is a design flaw to me.
Cost cutting would be instances where parts are shared between different models from the same manufacturer when the parts dont look like they are made for the car.

Rear glass not folding completely is an irritant for sure ( i do not know how easy/difficult it is at the design stage incase of obvious issue with aesthetics oif the car )


Skimping on passenger side miror, Thinner tyres, spare tyre being small, no ABS also go into the cost cutting measures.
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Old 24th April 2011, 23:11   #56
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

A lot of these so called flaws are there because of us- the customers. A typical Indian customer ( read as non BHPians ) still want the maximum car in the lowest price. No one bothers or cares about safety features like ABS and Air bags. Heck 90% people dont even want to wear seat belts and consider it a nuisance. We are fascinated with features like start stop ignition, over dose of chrome everywhere but don't realise the imporatnce of using both ORVMs while driving. So many still book cars without even taking a TD.

All this has obviously not gone unnoticed by the car manufacturers be it our own maruti or VW and the likes. As a result they dont bother to invest in these areas. It does make perfect Business Sense to me. Why bother when there is a 3 month + waiting period for most models!

Last edited by drmohitg : 24th April 2011 at 23:12.
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Old 25th April 2011, 07:12   #57
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

@Avon

As mentioned many a time earlier, the single reversing light is there to accommodate the rear fog lamp in the other light cluster. Thus it is neither a design flaw or cost cutting measure.

The door locking mechanism in the Polo has a few flaws, I agree, like passengers not being able to lock doors, unlock button working only on the driver's door and lack of a doors unlocked warning lamp may be considered design flaws.

But the ability to open the doors from the inside is actually a safety feature. It allows for the passengers to open the doors easily during a crash. This feature is present in most European cars off today. For example in Punto, you press the door opening lever inwards to lock the door. But even then just pulling the lever completely out in one motion unlocks and then opens the door.

Different size spares is definitely cost cutting. But as it is it is not expected of you to use the spare tyre for a long time to maintain equitable wear on all tyres. Thus its not a big problem to use a different size tyre, as long as the overall dia is the same.

@muni
Dead-pedal, split fold rear seats are not exactly something that the Indian customer truly looks for when buying the car. Thus manufacturers leave them out. Cant really call it cost cutting, when not many want the feature in the first place.

As for the conversion of hatchbacks to sedans, it is done all over the world. Just that Indians do it more brazenly, not caring to change front designs so that costs can be kept down by sharing body panels.
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Old 25th April 2011, 08:06   #58
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1. 110+ BHP, Turbo Petrol, Drop dead gorgeous looks, etc..Alright but no bottle holders? Not that car. This is the Linea's design flaw for the ladies at home

2. Ford Fiesta and Figo's driver seat see-saw arrangement aka seat height adjustment. That's a joke!

3. The Manza's Instument control panel (Speedo, Tacho etc.) is XS size while everything else in the car is XL size. Seems like a late decision to move the panel from center to in front of the driver?
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Old 25th April 2011, 08:43   #59
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

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How on earth is having a rear window that does NOT roll down fully become a design feature rather than a design flaw. Can some enlightened souls please educate me
Complain about the missing rear power window switch in the Figo as a cost cutting measure or the power window switches in the i10 as bad ergonomics. But calling windows that do not roll down fully as design flaw is way too much! Tell me honestly how many times do you drive with your rear windows completely rolled down?

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Originally Posted by Meili View Post
And the foolish Indian consumers continue to defend clueless designers and purchase their product instead of putting them out of business. What a shame.
So can you please elaborate how better off you are with the custom made Imports that you drive?

Last edited by Warwithwheels : 25th April 2011 at 08:52.
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Old 25th April 2011, 09:53   #60
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Default re: Design flaws and cost cutting in Indian cars

very nice topic to discuss, but shouldnt the discusions should be backed up by Photos of the flaws in the cars??

or are we too lazy to find the photos of the cars and then point out the flaws!

please i request everyone to support their points of discusion with atleast one photo of the car in question!

otherwise its just a useless discusion.

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